Jump to content
 

Okehampton Railway re-opening


Recommended Posts

It's not surprising, but there's some weird gone on with all this anyway, Weardale is owned by the same outfit.

 

 

 

Now looking at Companies House for Weadale, the whole lot was mortgaged to the Auckland Project just before it went up for sale.  Then oddly enough everything was then bought, by the Auckland Project.  Smells a bit like a done deal.  And then of course you have their accounts 6 months overdue for filing. 

  • Agree 2
  • Informative/Useful 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

I had wondered about the viability of a quite modest operation.  Other than on those days when the Exeter trains run it has often been very quiet indeed.  The diesel unit used for the Meldon shuttle needs fuel and maintenance even if crewed by volunteers but carrying one or two people at a time (as was the case on two of my visits) won't even pay for it to start up.  As a part of a larger concern it might have been fed a cash lifeline.  But when there is no cash the doors close.  

 

Devon County Council own the station and the quarry operator owns the track and the line from Coleford Junction up to Meldon.  It is the heritage railway operator which has closed down meaning there will be no shuttle trains on the Sampford Courtney to Meldon line for the foreseeable future.  

 

Whether Devon CC is able to run its own summer Sunday Exeter - Okehampton service this year is still open to debate but that is entirely separate, business wise, from the BARS heritage operation.  

  • Agree 1
  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Too bad!  Some government entity was supposed to be looking into the continued viability of rail service to Exeter which was mooted as roads were getting congested, especially at commute time and during the summer.  Also the long awaited connection from Bere Alston to serve a similar service for all those new houses at Tavvy and the equally congested road across the moor to Plymouth.  Surely the time has come when minds have to be made up.  If it takes too long, the usual deterioration will set in as the vandals take over!:diablo_mini:

     Brian.

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Went down to Oakhampton once a long time back the set up did not seem brilliant  no real ideas for the future seemed to be more interested in the station nothing else.Also seemed that local community not interested as well  and the stock was not in good condition and a very haphazard timetable.Shame for the people who worked on the line but the backers have let them down one o the problems of not actualy owning what you are running on.

  • Like 1
  • Agree 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
29 minutes ago, brianusa said:

Some government entity was supposed to be looking into the continued viability of rail service to Exeter ......  Also the long awaited connection from Bere Alston to serve a similar service for all those new houses at Tavvy

 

Okehampton - Exeter remains on the cards as I understand it.  Devon County Council seem to be interested and it could be resourced relatively easily.  Two units would be required to provide an hourly service which might - as the Sunday service now does - extend across Exeter to St. James' Park.  More for operational convenience than anything but it saves a change of trains if Central is the required destination.  

 

Bere Alston - Tavistock was supposed to be part-funded by a s.106 clause when the new homes were authorised.   Since that time Plymouth has become a unitary authority and has apparently no interest in the project meaning a large financial hole exists.  Devon CC are only responsible for the Tavistock - Bere Ferrers section so far as stations are concerned and are unwilling / unable to fund the Plymouth section.  There remain two significant hurdles in addition to spiralling costs which no-one can afford.  How to resource both Tavistock and Gunnislake and where to site the station in Tavistock.  

 

The former would require a loop at (ideally) Tamerton Foliot to permit an hourly Tavistock service which might drop a portion for Gunnislake at Bere Alston or may connect if a second platform there were re-opened.  Tavistock station site is now buried beneath the council offices; the only suitable site for a new station is well away from the town centre and lacks adequate car parking space so is unattractive to all parties involved.  

 

It isn't a dead duck yet but don't expect anything to happen.

  • Agree 3
  • Informative/Useful 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

Somewhat covered back in early January when everything went up for sale

 

As discussed then the consultation done for DCC on the new Okehampton station site uncovered that a great deal of work would be needed on the line if regular service were to be restored.

 

As for Tavistock, with the costs up to £93 million everyone seems to have lost interest in it.

 

 

  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
19 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

I had wondered about the viability of a quite modest operation.  Other than on those days when the Exeter trains run it has often been very quiet indeed.  The diesel unit used for the Meldon shuttle needs fuel and maintenance even if crewed by volunteers but carrying one or two people at a time (as was the case on two of my visits) won't even pay for it to start up.  As a part of a larger concern it might have been fed a cash lifeline.  But when there is no cash the doors close.  

 

Devon County Council own the station and the quarry operator owns the track and the line from Coleford Junction up to Meldon.  It is the heritage railway operator which has closed down meaning there will be no shuttle trains on the Sampford Courtney to Meldon line for the foreseeable future.  

 

Whether Devon CC is able to run its own summer Sunday Exeter - Okehampton service this year is still open to debate but that is entirely separate, business wise, from the BARS heritage operation.  

Which leaves the rather open question about the track over which a service to Okehampton would have to run.  As the railway at Okehampton is now in administration presumably the BARS personnel, and its money, which 'maintained' the Dartmoor Railway  track between Okehampton and the boundary with NR 1 mile north of Yeoford at teh site of Coleford Jcn will also no longer be there.  So 'somebody' has to take over and 'own' the infrastructure before it can be brought up to standard/used for the regular running of passenger trains.  

 

Whether Devon CC wish to become railway infrastructure owners, going through the various safety,  managerial, and practical, hoops that entails or whether NR would be prepared to take it on is a very open question.  Equally however - and before that question arises - there is the crucial point that the c.14 miles of BARS infrastructure needed to operate an Exeter - Okehampton shuttle is presumably an asset involved in the administration of the Dartmoor Railway so presumably to be dealt with as the administrators see fit as a means of recovering both their fees and any outstanding debts of the company.  Or, putting that another way, the administrators are legally bound to achieving the best return on the disposal of that asset by either selling it as a piece of railway infrastructure or selling it for scrap - whichever gets the best price.

 

So on the face of it everything seems considerably more complex than Devon CC saying they still intend to run a service over the route - unless the administrator is preprared to take on the responsibility of infrastructire ownership (highly unlikely) or sell it to someone else.

  • Like 1
  • Agree 1
  • Informative/Useful 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

I've stayed at the YHA in the goods shed a couple of times.  It is a shame that this has happened as the volunteers are a friendly bunch and I rather liked the station cafe and bookshop, but as a railway operation it seemed to me to lack managerial direction and focus.  It's an odd set up in that here is a 'heritage' operation (which doesn't actually operate much) on what is still potentially a main line railway that is often featured in re-opening plans as an alternative to the Dawlish route between Plymouth and Exeter.  'Commuter' services to Exeter are often touted as well but to be brutally realistic I can't see the need; the road connection is as good as anyone has any reasonable right to expect in that part of the world, a 70mph dual carriageway to near motorway standards, and I'm not aware that traffic is a major issue into Exeter.  The Barnstaple branch is a different matter; here the roads are thin and wiggly, and slow going, which makes rail commuting more viable.  But are there tens of thousands of commuters living in Darkest rural Devon that work in Exeter?  

 

The Okehampton operation doesn't seem to have ever really defined what it was, and what it's intentions were.  We have seen the West Somerset struggling with issues because it has always strongly defined it's intent, to reach Taunton as a commercial operation with a 'heritage' operation on the back of it; this is perhaps the opposite of this sort of spectrum.  

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Agree 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

52 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Equally however - and before that question arises - there is the crucial point that the c.14 miles of BARS infrastructure needed to operate an Exeter - Okehampton shuttle is presumably an asset involved in the administration of the Dartmoor Railway so presumably to be dealt with as the administrators see fit as a means of recovering both their fees and any outstanding debts of the company. 

 

Except that by most reports (I believe on RMweb, as well as other places like Wikipedia) BARS didn't own the track but rather leased and maintained it.

 

Ownership is apparently with Aggregate Industries.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dartmoor_Railway

  • Agree 1
  • Informative/Useful 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

I also understand that actual ownership of the Permanent Way from the NR boundary to Meldon remains with Aggregate Industries. 
 

The fact of it being maintained to a standard acceptable for limited passenger operations suggests that is indeed the case. 
 

I believe BARS had no interests east of Sampford Courtney station and leased the running rights from there to Meldon. 
 

Were there to be demand it is possible the quarry could reopen and ballast trains resume. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 'Commuter' services to Exeter are often touted as well but to be brutally realistic I can't see the need; the road connection is as good as anyone has any reasonable right to expect in that part of the world, a 70mph dual carriageway to near motorway standards, and I'm not aware that traffic is a major issue into Exeter.  The Barnstaple branch is a different matter; here the roads are thin and wiggly, and slow going, which makes rail commuting more viable.

 

Okehampton has been a part of the Devon Metro program since the beginning, though with no progress short of the land and some consultation on a new Okehampton station.

 

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 But are there tens of thousands of commuters living in Darkest rural Devon that work in Exeter?  

 

I suspect, like a lot of these things, the lack of a rail service became a convenient scapegoat for politicians when pressed by voters on the lack of good jobs - it can be blamed for the lack of tourists (despite few tourists arriving by train anymore) and the lack of both local employment and the ability to get into Exeter for jobs/school.

 

See Torbay and the blaming of a lack of Kingskerwell bypass.  While I haven't looked closely I doubt Torbay is suddenly booming now that the bypass finally got built.

 

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The Okehampton operation doesn't seem to have ever really defined what it was, and what it's intentions were.  We have seen the West Somerset struggling with issues because it has always strongly defined it's intent, to reach Taunton as a commercial operation with a 'heritage' operation on the back of it; this is perhaps the opposite of this sort of spectrum. 

 

Looking online, difficult to see how you create a successful heritage operation shuttling back and forth between Okehampton and the east side of Meldon Viaduct.  Not long enough, scenery so-so, would be a tough sell even if the UK wasn't full of heritage operations.

  • Like 1
  • Agree 1
  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
1 minute ago, mdvle said:

Looking online, difficult to see how you create a successful heritage operation shuttling back and forth between Okehampton and the east side of Meldon Viaduct.  Not long enough, scenery so-so, would be a tough sell even if the UK wasn't full of heritage operations.

In more recent years there have been trips down to Sampford Courtney also.  Still not a stunningly scenic ride and still not plugged into anything else so operating in glorious isolation.  

 

Devon County Council once sponsored a large network of summer Sunday buses throughout the wider Dartmoor region - with a few also running on other days - in order to offer an alternative to private car use through the area.  And a good-value Dartmoor Day Rover ticket was offered which had even wider validity including just about any bus service running in Devon (other than locally in Torbay or Plymouth) plus the Exeter - Okehampton, Plymouth - Gunnislake and Exeter - Plymouth / Paignton trains.  All for £10.  Buses were timed so far as possible to make good connections with trains at Okehampton and Gunnislake and with each other at key interchange points.  

 

As a concept it was superb though good patronage relied upon good weather and that, in Dartmoor, can never be relied upon.  Some routes were more popular than others.  Some were abandoned after just a couple of seasons.  Others ran for many years.  The "Trans-Moor Link" 82 once ran every two hours as did the 187 linking Okehampton and Gunnislake with a heritage vehicle (Bristol FLF when available but often the Bristol VRT stand-in) running on the near-parallel route 118 for a few years.  

 

I used the 187 to link both rail lines in the last year it ran.  The driver was surprised to have a passenger aboard.  He said that there had been no promotion of the remaining services that year and most trips had run empty.  

 

My point here is that there was once a busy network of transport options on a leisure day of the week and of which the Okehampton Railway was nominally a part (though it didn't accept the Dartmoor Rover tickets) but politics, at national and county level, have seen it all lost and left Okehampton with a disconnected short-distance shuttle train of little interest to most people and probably not even known to most visitors to the region.  

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

I wouldn't say that Okehampton was exactly a hot spot tourist destination either, it's a gateway to Dartmoor, but the weather up there is not exactly predictable either, being the wettest part of the moor. The station itself is up quite a steep hill and around half a mile from the centre of town.

 

The line itself is not particularly scenic, either and the last time I travelled it the trees were well established and reducing the view even more. I would say the best part is the closed section between Okehampton and Tavistock.

 

 

  • Agree 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
1 hour ago, Siberian Snooper said:

I would say the best part is the closed section between Okehampton and Tavistock.

Closed to rail traffic.  It is open to walkers and cyclists and a fine trail it is too.  

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
7 hours ago, The Johnster said:

'Commuter' services to Exeter are often touted as well but to be brutally realistic I can't see the need; the road connection is as good as anyone has any reasonable right to expect in that part of the world, a 70mph dual carriageway to near motorway standards, and I'm not aware that traffic is a major issue into Exeter. 

 

You want to try it! Any time after 7.15 am it takes at least 40 minutes to travel the 6 miles I go by bus; car's not a lot faster and putative charges to park as well. Exeter doesn't have any effective ring road, the southern bypass is just about dual carriageway but nothing around the north side means most traffic has to fight its way in and through town; delays almost become routine.

Only 3 bridges over the Exe, plus the M5. One of those bridges leads into Red Cow level crossing just north of St David's which is notorious for holdups. 

The  dual carriageway A30, A38 and A380 regularly have 'incidents' causing tailbacks. Colleagues coming from Newton Abbot and Okehampton often call to say they're running late.

So traffic is a major issue, the Devon Metro schemes may help and it would be good to get the Okehampton lines included, but definitely needs to be good quality infrastructure to allow frequent, fast runs if it's going to attract custom.

Edited by Ramblin Rich
silly phone keyboard
  • Agree 11
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

I had no idea it was that bad.  I live in Cardiff, which has the slowest commuter journey times in the country, as all the main roads into the centre are one lane each direction at some point, and the city's geography means that there are far too few bridges over the Taff, so I'm sympathetic of the problems.  It's just that I couldn't equate the daily exodus from the Valleys and the Vale of Glamorgan, both very heavily populated areas, into Cardiff with the traffic from rural Devon where population density is light in comparison into Exeter, a city of about half the size and population of Cardiff.

 

But I can't seriously see there being sufficient traffic to warrant re-opening the Sampford Peverill-Okehampton section for commercial purposes.   On the back of a through main line Exeter-Plymouth route perhaps, but not as a standalone venture.

Edited by The Johnster
  • Agree 1
  • Friendly/supportive 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
On 16/02/2020 at 14:57, mdvle said:

 

Except that by most reports (I believe on RMweb, as well as other places like Wikipedia) BARS didn't own the track but rather leased and maintained it.

 

Ownership is apparently with Aggregate Industries.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dartmoor_Railway

Which still leaves the question of all the legal niceties essentials if the lessee ceases to exist, which would appear to be the case.  So either Aggregate Industries, or Devon CC, or NR, or A.N. Other, will still have to jump through the various legal, safety, and managerial hoops and get the track up to and maintained at the necessary standard for everyday operation of passenger trains.  Doesn't matter who it is but the current arrangement would appear to have died with BARS so somebody would have to take that on and obtain the necessary licence.  As BARS own licence (or licences?) applied to a wider range of activities/sites than Dartmoor presumably that might not be available for transfer to a new licence holder for this route?

  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Which still leaves the question of all the legal niceties essentials if the lessee ceases to exist, which would appear to be the case.

 

So this caused me to do some more searching, and it appears the only thing (at least so far) to be shut down is the Dartmoor Railway.

 

The rest of BARS so far presumably remain for sale, which perhaps complicates the issue of who has the lease if it was transferred to BARS prior to putting the Dartmoor Railway into administration.

 

Either way, as you say the legal issues you take a while and thus prevent anything operating this summer.

  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
On 16/02/2020 at 21:25, Ramblin Rich said:

So traffic is a major issue

May I second that?  Not from the point of view of a local suffering daily but a one-time resident of East Devon who spent more hours than he cares to remember trying to get into and out of Exeter by road both by private car and by bus.  And from the point of view of a quite regular visitor who does his best to avoid the place which is very difficult unless the M5 is used for a through journey - and that has traffic issues of its own.

 

Devon CC seems to be aware of the strangulation occurring in and around Exeter daily and not just in peak times.  The position of the city astride a river crossing and at the natural meeting place of transport routes means it will always be busy.  There has been some success in converting motorists to public transport use with the opening of Digby & Sowton station and the stopping of more trains at Pinhoe.  "Devon Metro" was / is supposed to produce an even more frequent cross-city service (though most traffic is to / from Central or St. Davids) with suggestions that an hourly train to Okehampton might eventually form a part of that.  The possibly lighter use along the Okehampton route could be offset against better revenue taken on the very busy Exmouth leg.  

 

Without wishing to re-ignite a very well-worm debate there seems little market in a re-opened route through to Plymouth supported by local traffic.  Any business from Okehampton and Sampford Courtney (the only two stations which might re-open) is almost certainly going to be to / from Exeter.  When buses ran direct between Okehampton and Plymouth they were almost empty north of Tavistock.  I am well aware that buses are a much less attractive option in most folks' eyes than trains but there really isn't any worthwhile business over the OKehampton - Tavistock section for any mode.  Even the main road is surprisingly quiet at most times.  

  • Like 2
  • Agree 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
12 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

 

 

Without wishing to re-ignite a very well-worm debate there seems little market in a re-opened route through to Plymouth supported by local traffic.  Any business from Okehampton and Sampford Courtney (the only two stations which might re-open) is almost certainly going to be to / from Exeter.  When buses ran direct between Okehampton and Plymouth they were almost empty north of Tavistock.  I am well aware that buses are a much less attractive option in most folks' eyes than trains but there really isn't any worthwhile business over the OKehampton - Tavistock section for any mode.  Even the main road is surprisingly quiet at most times.  

 

Rick, you are just priceless.

 

We all look forward to further floggings of a hobby horse/potentially live horse/dead horse etc - yawn.

  • Funny 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
On 17/02/2020 at 00:12, The Johnster said:

I had no idea it was that bad.  I live in Cardiff, which has the slowest commuter journey times in the country, as all the main roads into the centre are one lane each direction at some point, and the city's geography means that there are far too few bridges over the Taff, so I'm sympathetic of the problems.  It's just that I couldn't equate the daily exodus from the Valleys and the Vale of Glamorgan, both very heavily populated areas, into Cardiff with the traffic from rural Devon where population density is light in comparison into Exeter, a city of about half the size and population of Cardiff.

 

But I can't seriously see there being sufficient traffic to warrant re-opening the Sampford Peverill-Okehampton section for commercial purposes.   On the back of a through main line Exeter-Plymouth route perhaps, but not as a standalone venture.

 

Exeter is well known for having a large catchment area, and the addition and growth of the Met Office and the University in recent years has made it an attractive place for businesses to set-up/relocate. House prices in the city itself, along with the attractive countryside/seaside living opportunities available locally, mean that a much larger proportion of the workforce (itself already much larger than it was 20 years ago) has resulted in peak time traffic increases. The city has 3 major park & ride schemes, and there are plans for more. The City's population is estimated at 130,000 in 2019, while the 2001 census had it at 110,000 - in 1981 it was barely 100,000, so the growth has been happening recently. East Devon and Teignbridge councils are looking at developing the housing they need adjacent to the city boundaries, again making it de facto larger. 

 

The demand is there. 

 

image.png.a1cf59be3b8339756c91c8b2824ffbf7.png

 

  • Like 1
  • Agree 2
  • Informative/Useful 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

Further to that, the park & ride sites are all on the southern side of the city close to the M5 and A38/A380 so again there is little for folks travelling in from the north. The next planned site is close to the A30 so could tap traffic from that direction, but the buses just get stuck in the traffic too.
There's a few bus lanes (and a very restricted bus only bridge under the GWR main line at Marsh Barton which I'm amazed they can get through unscathed!) but no way of avoiding the major bottlenecks.

From that point if view, rail has its attractions, if the service is frequent enough.

 

  • Agree 2
  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...