Okehampton Railway re-opening

[Ramblin Rich]

Some more on the local radio station website about funding for feasibility studies, including the Tavistock scheme and Okehampton commuter services.

https://www.radioexe.co.uk/news-and-features/local-news/decision-expected-soon-on-rail-restoration-study/

Includes a comment that Devon CC own 90% of the track (bed) from Here Alston to Tavistock.

However, this must be the most convoluted statement since Sir Humphrey left Jim Hacker's office:

" A decision on which railway lines could receive funding towards feasibility studies of routes that could be restored could be made within two months."

So how many steps away from real action is that? I lost count....

[mdvle]

The most telling part of the article to me was that everyone wants a railway.

 

In addition to the Okehampton and Tavistock services, Newton Abbot wants Heathfield (the "best investment in the southwest"), South Brent wants Kingsbridge, and Torridge is miffed that they don't have a railway to restore.

 

Or how about that this fund will only pay out a maximum of £50,000?  In other words, the government isn't serious about restoring any of these lines but rather making lots of communities feel wanted.

[KeithMacdonald]

1 hour ago, Ramblin Rich said:

" A decision on which railway lines could receive funding towards feasibility studies of routes that could be restored could be made within two months."

So how many steps away from real action is that? I lost count....

 

Sir Humphrey would be proud.

• 1 = Decision (a brave and bold move) ;-)
• 2 = could receive funding
• 3 = feasibility studies
• 4 = could be restored
• 5 = could be made

In the fullness of time, with due consideration and consultation, in the light of fiscal constraints...

 

And after all that (if it happens before the pigs fly past), it's still no closer to any real action. Depending on what's in the minutes of the meetings.

 

 

 

[KeithMacdonald]

40 minutes ago, mdvle said:

The most telling part of the article to me was that everyone wants a railway. In addition to the Okehampton and Tavistock services, Newton Abbot wants Heathfield (the "best investment in the southwest"), South Brent wants Kingsbridge, and Torridge is miffed that they don't have a railway to restore.

 

What's the betting that any moment now the folk in Ambridge will start lobbying for the line from Borchester to be reopened? Probably with Lynda Snell at the helm.

[Mark Saunders]

4 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

What's the betting that any moment now the folk in Ambridge will start lobbying for the line from Borchester to be reopened? Probably with Lynda Snell at the helm.

 

Are you sure I thought she would be against it!

[Oldddudders]

Any vox pop on the subject of better public transport links is always resoundingly positive. Everyone wants everyone else on public transport so the road is clear for their car!

[mdvle]

12 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Any vox pop on the subject of better public transport links is always resoundingly positive. Everyone wants everyone else on public transport so the road is clear for their car!

 

Well, hate to be the one, but there is an exception - when said public transport shares the roadway (aka gets in the way) like trams/streetcars.

[jcredfer]

45 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

Well, hate to be the one, but there is an exception - when said public transport shares the roadway (aka gets in the way) like trams/streetcars.

Interesting thought.....   one bus with 30+ persons on board, is apparently sharing the road {getting in the way} of those same persons, should they choose to travel by car.  Simple Maths on road occupancy of each mode of transport might indicate another conclusion.

 

Julian

 

[mdvle]

4 hours ago, jcredfer said:

Interesting thought.....   one bus with 30+ persons on board, is apparently sharing the road {getting in the way} of those same persons, should they choose to travel by car.  Simple Maths on road occupancy of each mode of transport might indicate another conclusion.

 

But they don't see it that way, and instead see a large vehicle with frequent stops causing congestion.

 

And, for my specific example of tram/streetcar, it is even worse where on a 4 lane road it blocks both lanes at each stop thus fully stopping traffic.  Thus in particular many, including some car oriented politicians, see trams/streetcars as an enemy of the car.

[rab]

11 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Any vox pop on the subject of better public transport links is always resoundingly positive. Everyone wants everyone else on public transport so the road is clear for their car!

A bit like the 'everyone must keep the school entrance

clears so I can stop and drop my kids off' syndrome

[jcredfer]

13 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

But they don't see it that way, and instead see a large vehicle with frequent stops causing congestion.

 

And, for my specific example of tram/streetcar, it is even worse where on a 4 lane road it blocks both lanes at each stop thus fully stopping traffic.  Thus in particular many, including some car oriented politicians, see trams/streetcars as an enemy of the car.

 

Indeed, they do, totally blinkered to realistic perception of the addition of some additional 30 cars in front of them for each bus removed, often with the conviction, of their logic, reinforced by the tipple in the glass they are speaking across.  Where I live {quite quiet for a city} there are many busses, all very well used, too, I might add.  However, if they were removed, the existing 15 - 20 minute delays would expand massively and probably result in total gridlock.  My brother is one such, who rails about busses - and the bus lanes bring him to near Apoplexy .  He just doesn't see how many cars it removes and the busses getting to places on time, being a massive incentive to folks to use them, and would otherwise be taking up room around him in their cars.  He also does't see how little distance the traffic in front of the bus has moved on, whilst it's embarking / disembarking passengers, when in the lanes amongst other vehicles, not because of the busses, but because of the sheer number of cars already present.

 

Julian

 

[rab]

4 hours ago, jcredfer said:

 

Indeed, they do, totally blinkered to realistic perception of the addition of some additional 30 cars in front of them for each bus removed, often with the conviction, of their logic, reinforced by the tipple in the glass they are speaking across.  Where I live {quite quiet for a city} there are many busses, all very well used, too, I might add.  However, if they were removed, the existing 15 - 20 minute delays would expand massively and probably result in total gridlock.  My brother is one such, who rails about busses - and the bus lanes bring him to near Apoplexy .  He just doesn't see how many cars it removes and the busses getting to places on time, being a massive incentive to folks to use them, and would otherwise be taking up room around him in their cars.  He also does't see how little distance the traffic in front of the bus has moved on, whilst it's embarking / disembarking passengers, when in the lanes amongst other vehicles, not because of the busses, but because of the sheer number of cars already present.

 

Julian

 

There may not be many cart horse left,

but the blinkers are still very much in evidence.

[jcredfer]

Relating back to the topic, the line used to be a popular means of transport, I used to live in a town on the line, albeit half a century ago.  Back then I could go by train or bus and not notice any real difference in my pocket, just nearer bus stops, but a better journey on the train.  Smoother, quicker, no traffic jams, by train, so a much better journey.  

 

Now the Tarker Line remains, supported by County subsidies and the tourist interest for the area and the book.  That's useful for both the tourist industry and the local population commuters.  It's a pity that the branch from Crediton, bearing off to Oakhampton and Plymouth beyond, didn't receive the same support for tourist, industry and commuter passengers {Exeter direction and Plymouth way, too} since then, as it would have been beneficial for locals, industry and temporary routing for when the Dawlish route descends into the sea.  

 

Infrastructure remaining invites newer uses, removal would stop new ideas.  Hopefully a solution may be found to keep the options open for the line.  It doesn't have to be the grand replacement of the coastal route, which would be financially huge.  Enough support for a line, with just tourist, commuter and industrial normal use, could support route changes when problems occur elsewhere and locals would find ways to use the facility.

 

Julian

 

[Glorious NSE]

On ‎17‎/‎02‎/‎2020 at 21:41, Gwiwer said:

Any business from Okehampton and Sampford Courtney (the only two stations which might re-open) is almost certainly going to be to / from Exeter.

Just a little comment on this one - DCC I believe had at one point also planned to open a park and ride style station where the Exeter Road crosses the line on the edge of Okehampton, that would have allowed better access to rail services by travellers using the A30, and also bus connections, giving the possibility of using it for railheading by folk further West/North.

I do wonder whether you could pull in longer distance travellers if it was an extension of the SWR Waterloo services rather than just a train into Exeter - there must be many folk in North Devon/East Cornwall at present who drive to Tiverton Parkway or Exeter when going to London.

Also - any Okehampton service would surely also call at Crediton, and ideally be timed to upgrade that from hourly to half hourly which would help rail to compete with the bus service.

[Gwiwer]

7 minutes ago, Glorious NSE said:

any Okehampton service would surely also call at Crediton

Absolutely.  

 

If the route were to re-open then currently SWR has no rolling stock available to work it.  They are hard-pressed resourcing their Somerset initiatives including the near half-hourly London - Salisbury - Yeovil service (when both routes are taken into account) but that is not to say a new fleet could not be adequate to serve further network extensions.  Traditionally of course it was the LSWR route with trains largely provided by the SR / BR-SR and those which ran to / from London came from / went to Waterloo.  

 

 

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, Glorious NSE said:

Just a little comment on this one - DCC I believe had at one point also planned to open a park and ride style station where the Exeter Road crosses the line on the edge of Okehampton,

 

Covered in the BARS thread, where a link to find the study DCC had done regarding the station and the track/platform arrangements to allow for the Dartmoor Railway to also operate.

 

It also revealed by an extremely superficial examination that a lot of the existing rail infrastructure is in barely adequate to bad shape for a regular passenger service and needed a much more serious examination.

 

1 hour ago, Glorious NSE said:

I do wonder whether you could pull in longer distance travellers if it was an extension of the SWR Waterloo services rather than just a train into Exeter - there must be many folk in North Devon/East Cornwall at present who drive to Tiverton Parkway or Exeter when going to London.

 

Given the apparent financial problems with SWR I don't think they would consider an extension of service.

[mdvle]

15 hours ago, jcredfer said:

Relating back to the topic, the line used to be a popular means of transport,

 

Popular will be a relative term to the population in the area, but the line was closed because nowhere near enough people used it to justify the costs of maintaining the infrastructure and running services.

 

15 hours ago, jcredfer said:

It's a pity that the branch from Crediton, bearing off to Oakhampton and Plymouth beyond, didn't receive the same support for tourist, industry and commuter passengers {Exeter direction and Plymouth way, too} since then, as it would have been beneficial for locals, industry and temporary routing for when the Dawlish route descends into the sea.  

 

Infrastructure remaining invites newer uses, removal would stop new ideas.  Hopefully a solution may be found to keep the options open for the line.  It doesn't have to be the grand replacement of the coastal route, which would be financially huge.  Enough support for a line, with just tourist, commuter and industrial normal use, could support route changes when problems occur elsewhere and locals would find ways to use the facility.

 

Okehampton to Exeter seems viable, at least as long as DCC seems to want to support it.

 

Similarly, Tavistock to Plymouth might be viable though seems very doubtful given the costs of rebuilding the line.

 

There is no support for Tavistock to Okehampton, there simply isn't enough locals, no industry, and tourists for the most part no longer travel by rail.

 

And you can't have it both ways - either it is a viable alternative to Dawlish, with the much greater costs that brings, or it is a "sleepy branch line" that is incapable of offering much use if the Dawlish line closes.

[Glorious NSE]

All comments accepted...

By "SWR" I guess I really mean "relevant operator of the WofE service at that time". Currently SWR, but that may change.

Franchised operators don't get to cherry pick their services, so if it was written into a franchise then the operator runs it.

Nobody is suggesting it starts tomorrow, infra and rolling stock are definitely two of the hurdles to clear, though there's visibly more "wiggle room" on the rolling stock side than there has been in recent times - even some post-priv DMU fleets heading for store over the next couple of years.

Trades to get some cascaded 158s are not inconceivable, and in the timescale it takes to get things done (bearing in mind i'm still waiting for breaking ground on Marsh Barton station, due to be open for the new timetable in Dec 2016!) neither is a newbuild replacement for the SWR 158/9 fleets on the WofE route.

[Oldddudders]

6 minutes ago, Glorious NSE said:

 a newbuild replacement for the SWR 158/9 fleets on the WofE route.

Already 30 years old - and not really feeling their age when I travel on them. Still reliable, too, by all accounts. 

 

In BR days, diesel units were given a book-life of 30 years, EMUs 40 years. 

[Rivercider]

Devon County Council have an aspiration to improve the local service between Exeter and Axminster as part of the 'Devon Metro', this could be provided by either extending the current Barnstaple to Exeter/St James Park service, or by an Okehampton to Axminster service.

 

cheers  

[mdvle]

37 minutes ago, Glorious NSE said:

By "SWR" I guess I really mean "relevant operator of the WofE service at that time". Currently SWR, but that may change.

Franchised operators don't get to cherry pick their services, so if it was written into a franchise then the operator runs it.

 

Given that it would require a subsidy (either direct from DfT, or indirect by a decrease in the premium paid to DfT - I am unsure of how the SWR franchise is supposed to operate) what incentive is there for DfT to specify an expansion beyond Exeter, particularly given the inherent hassles involved (I assume that there is some cleaning of units done at Exeter before they return to Waterloo, if not then this disappears as an issue).

 

Now if the southwest followed northern England's example and put their votes up for sale anything would be possible...

[Gwiwer]

2 hours ago, mdvle said:

I am unsure of how the SWR franchise is supposed to operate

So are their staff!  Avoiding the current issues surrounding that franchise yes it would be the responsibility of who ever to run the service at the time it was let.  But who ever does so will require rolling stock and train crew from somewhere.  

 

Devon CC are the responsible local authority for the entire Exeter - Okehampton route although proposals exist to hive the City of Exeter off into its own unitary authority in the manner already existing in Plymouth.  It may be the unitary Plymouth authority which is the most significant stumbling block in progressing the Tavistock scheme, either directly by being disinterested or indirectly by the removal of significant income to Devon CC as that now goes to Plymouth.  

 

If Devon can get Okehampton up and running then we shall see what modal shift there might be from road to rail.  The A30 is a vastly improved road now from 1972 when the railway closed but one must still negotiate the (often severe) traffic congestion if one wishes to reach the city of Exeter.  Or use one of the Park and Ride sites.  Rail would have an advantage if a direct service were offered to Exeter Central in dropping folk more or less in the middle of the CBD.  But the disadvantage of having Okehampton station some distance out of town, up a decent hill and with limited parking might still be a disincentive.  Were an all-new station to be developed that may offer a better location for Park and Ride options but it is hard to see how it may benefit the town centre.  As many road users would approach from the north and north-west as anywhere and still need to drive through the town to reach a Parkway-style station sited closer to Exeter adjacent to the A30.  And of course that costs money.  More than ensuring what already exists is available and useable in at least the short term.  

[Glorious NSE]

6 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Already 30 years old - and not really feeling their age when I travel on them. Still reliable, too, by all accounts. 

 

In BR days, diesel units were given a book-life of 30 years, EMUs 40 years. 

 

Did London and back on them this week, reasonably impressed that they don't seem to have trashed them internally in the refurb (was expecting a seat cramming excercise!) - though less impressed that basic operation seems to have gone to pot. 

 

But you have to assume that someone will be looking at replacements within the next decade. 

 

It'd be lovely if they did that with a wider view. 

 

That's definately a wish, not a prediction though... 

[Ken.W]

On 22/02/2020 at 14:31, Ramblin Rich said:

Some more on the local radio station website about funding for feasibility studies, including the Tavistock scheme and Okehampton commuter services.

https://www.radioexe.co.uk/news-and-features/local-news/decision-expected-soon-on-rail-restoration-study/

Includes a comment that Devon CC own 90% of the track (bed) from Here Alston to Tavistock.

However, this must be the most convoluted statement since Sir Humphrey left Jim Hacker's office:

" A decision on which railway lines could receive funding towards feasibility studies of routes that could be restored could be made within two months."

So how many steps away from real action is that? I lost count....

 

So, is that an announcement of an announcement of having a feasibility study into having a feasibility study?

 

And then they wonder why these schemes cost so much

Edited February 25, 2020 by Ken.W

[Zomboid]

On 24/02/2020 at 21:36, Glorious NSE said:

 

Did London and back on them this week, reasonably impressed that they don't seem to have trashed them internally in the refurb (was expecting a seat cramming excercise!) - though less impressed that basic operation seems to have gone to pot. 

 

But you have to assume that someone will be looking at replacements within the next decade. 

 

It'd be lovely if they did that with a wider view. 

 

That's definately a wish, not a prediction though... 

It wasn't in SWRs franchise plan (though there was talk at the time that Stagecoach would have bought a load of bi-modes if they'd won), but I expect that the next time it's let the diesel fleet will be replaced with bi-modes. Buying enough of them to run beyond Exeter would seem like something to at least be seriously considered.

 

Desiros will probably be over 20 years old by then too, which could mean something in DfT land.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Zomboid