Okehampton Railway re-opening

[Glorious NSE]

5 hours ago, Zomboid said:

It wasn't in SWRs franchise plan (though there was talk at the time that Stagecoach would have bought a load of bi-modes if they'd won), but I expect that the next time it's let the diesel fleet will be replaced with bi-modes. Buying enough of them to run beyond Exeter would seem like something to at least be seriously considered.

 

Desiros will probably be over 20 years old by then too, which could mean something in DfT land.

Yep, if SWR stays it's full term the 158/9 fleet should be running past 2024, plus presumably a minimum of a couple of years beyond that for the new incumbent to order a replacement - but 2024 isn't that far away, and SWR still running it then is not particularly certain at the moment either!

[JohnR]

1 hour ago, Glorious NSE said:

Yep, if SWR stays it's full term the 158/9 fleet should be running past 2024, plus presumably a minimum of a couple of years beyond that for the new incumbent to order a replacement - but 2024 isn't that far away, and SWR still running it then is not particularly certain at the moment either!

 

Roger Ford gives them months, rather than years. 

[Harlequin]

I just had a chat with two guys from Network Rail I met in North Tawton.

 

They said they were out looking at the structures on the line between Okehampton and Crediton because GWR are interested in running a service, probably just a DMU shuttling between Okehampton and Crediton.

 

Apparently the structures they'd looked at this morning (between Okehampton and North Tawton) are sound, just a bit of "de-veging" to be done. The PWay will be separately inspected later this week.

 

Interestingly, they were unaware of the proposals to build a new station on the Eastern side of Okey...

 

Edited February 26, 2020 by Harlequin

[Glorious NSE]

21 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

Roger Ford gives them months, rather than years. 

From my experiences last week, I wouldn't be surprised - You won't make ends meet when you give most of your ticket price back in delay repay...

[KeithMacdonald]

11 minutes ago, Glorious NSE said:

From my experiences last week, I wouldn't be surprised - You won't make ends meet when you give most of your ticket price back in delay repay...

 

Just wondering how well that works. The BBC say that in some areas more than 1/2 the TOC service delays are knock-on effects of Network Rail's own maintenance delays.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-51190399

 

NR has to compensate the TOCs

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/industry-and-commercial/information-for-operators/payments-for-disruption-on-the-railway/

 

But the TOCs get the blame from the customers. Then gets fined by the Government, which gives money to NR. Government then cancels the franchise, and tries to award it to another operator, who inherits all the same problems? Seems like a good merry-go-round.

[caradoc]

Network Rail is certainly responsible for a lot of delays, but bear in mind that those figures include by far the majority of external incidents, eg trespass, bridge strikes, severe weather.

 

[KeithMacdonald]

57 minutes ago, caradoc said:

Network Rail is certainly responsible for a lot of delays, but bear in mind that those figures include by far the majority of external incidents, eg trespass, bridge strikes, severe weather.

 

Thanks, I already have.

[KeithMacdonald]

5 hours ago, Harlequin said:

I just had a chat with two guys from Network Rail I met in North Tawton....

Interestingly, they were unaware of the proposals to build a new station on the Eastern side of Okey...

 

Different departments?

[Zomboid]

There's no reason to think that structures inspection guys have been briefed on speculative future station aspirations.

[KeithMacdonald]

33 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

There's no reason to think that structures inspection guys have been briefed on speculative future station aspirations.

 

I guess most of us have worked in places like that.

 

Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs) and Mushroom Management.

[009 micro modeller]

I visited the Dartmoor Railway about 10 years ago and did Okehampton - Meldon - Okehampton - Sampford Courtenay - Okehampton, I think at the time they were running trains into Exeter only on one day a week (may have been at weekends and marketed to shoppers rather than commuters), but I’m not sure whether these were run with the Thumper as an extension of the normal service or with main line/TOC stock (is the Thumper mainline registered?). I wasn’t available on a day when they were running to Exeter and it did seem that the journey to Sampford didn’t add much from a tourist/transport link point of view, but I still thought it was a nice line with the station at Okehampton having been restored very well. Perhaps if a public/community rail service runs only as far as Okehampton this would allow some sort of heritage centre operation to be developed around the quarry and the Meldon - Okehampton section (which according to Wikipedia is a couple of miles, slightly longer than I’d previously realised), although I can’t see that being particularly viable while there is a possibility of the quarry reopening.

 

Also, I was under the impression that more recently (since I visited) they had been running infrequent charter/special/dining trains rather than the regular DMU service, but does anyone know more about this?

[Gwiwer]

The Okehampton Thumper (unit 1132 iirc) is not registered for Network Rail operation so far as I know but is permitted to operate on a restricted basis between Meldon and Sampford Courtney over track not owned nor maintained by NR.  

 

The Okehampton Railway has run occasional trips with other stock including a 4TC carriage and a former departmental vehicle using shunter (class 08 or 09) power.  There have been occasional charters up to Okehampton arriving from various parts of the national network but not operated by the Okehampton Railway.  Okehampton has provided "tanking" facilities however meaning incoming stock can be supplied with fresh water for the toilets and swept out.  

 

I recall that there were a very few charters to Exeter as opposed to the Devon CC sponsored timetable service from Exeter on summer Sundays.  I believe these used hired-in Pacer or Sprinter stock.  

Edited February 26, 2020 by Gwiwer
Typo

[Rivercider]

The Exeter to Okehampton service has been a summer Sunday only service  - May to September , run by Great Western, and its predecessors.   I'm not sure how long it has run for, but at least 18 years, I have only used it in the last 5 years.

 The service was operated by a 150, (or crowded 153 set). I have enjoyed the trips I made, and always then used the heritage train up to Meldon while I was there.

 

cheers

[surfsup]

On 24/02/2020 at 21:36, Glorious NSE said:

 

Did London and back on them this week, reasonably impressed that they don't seem to have trashed them internally in the refurb (was expecting a seat cramming excercise!) - though less impressed that basic operation seems to have gone to pot. 

 

But you have to assume that someone will be looking at replacements within the next decade. 

 

It'd be lovely if they did that with a wider view. 

 

That's definately a wish, not a prediction though... 

 

SWR's Class 158/9 Fleet are due to receive their refurbishment from late this year onwards, only having a very light "refresh" so far as part of their recent overhaul's. They have only just advertised for an experienced project manager so won't have anything drawn up yet, although I believe a re-seat is still on the cards (as it was with SWR) to increase capacity, while First will lose the big Primarius UK Seats in favour of the FISA Lean (as used on the GA "Flirts" and SWR 444 First Class) in a 2+2 capacity. 

 

Personally I hope they look at the ATW/TFW and ScotRail Inverness 158s as a benchmark example, the best 158 fleet refurbishments so far.  

[Glorious NSE]

11 hours ago, surfsup said:

 

SWR's Class 158/9 Fleet are due to receive their refurbishment from late this year onwards, only having a very light "refresh" so far as part of their recent overhaul's. They have only just advertised for an experienced project manager so won't have anything drawn up yet, although I believe a re-seat is still on the cards (as it was with SWR) to increase capacity, while First will lose the big Primarius UK Seats in favour of the FISA Lean (as used on the GA "Flirts" and SWR 444 First Class) in a 2+2 capacity. 

The one we used had I think the same seat locations, but didn't have the chunky moquette cushions that SWT had, with a slightly thinner (not uncomfortable) blue vinyl finish, so I'd assumed that was their internal refresh - having been in ones previously with SWR external repaints but retaining SWT internals!

It'll be a shame if they kill the advantage of the SWR route over the GWR from our perspective - it takes a bit longer but you get plenty of space and comfort!

 

22 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

Just wondering how well that works. The BBC say that in some areas more than 1/2 the TOC service delays are knock-on effects of Network Rail's own maintenance delays.

In this case, on the Up direction we continually lost time at station stops (and not at ones where we crossed an opposing service which is the usual delay cause! - 5 mins delay Crewkerne, 6 mins Sherborne etc - on a not especially busy train!)
18 late by Clapham Jcn (25% refund) - although the recovery time on the Waterloo approach means that no Waterloo passengers will get to claim.

On the Down direction (Sunday 23rd) they cancelled half the booked afternoon trains from Salisbury West - ours was terminated there, we had to wait an hour for the following one, so we were 63 mins late back to Exeter (100% refund).

(All trains West of Salisbury were booked to run via Westbury that day so only Exeter ones were booked to continue on...)

Reason announced by the train crew for the last one was "shortage of drivers" - which is plausible but annoying for a Sunday with diversions on - however the cancellation code on RTT blamed "delays to previous service" - which strikes me as nonsense when it arrived at Salisbury more or less on time!

[Gwiwer]

The re-liveried 158/159 fleet has already been re-seated with the dark blue covers.  It would seem a waste if this is to be changed again so soon.  Quite how they propose to get any more seats into Standard without making them inaccessible remains to be seen.  They are comfortable but already quite tightly packed so far as leg-room goes.  It has to be remembered that these units are used for journeys of up to four hours (and the 444s for over three hours) so high-density seating may not be the most popular option.  

[KeithMacdonald]

Exeter gets a special mention here, as the fastest growing city in the South West. I wonder how many of these new Devonians will live in Exeter, or try and commute from places like Okehampton?

 

 

[JohnR]

32 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

Exeter gets a special mention here, as the fastest growing city in the South West. I wonder how many of these new Devonians will live in Exeter, or try and commute from places like Okehampton?

 

 

 

The Government defines areas called "Travel to Work Areas" - defined as "a collection of wards for which of the resident economically active population, at least 75% actually work in the area, and also, that of everyone working in the area, at least 75% actually live in the area".

 

The Exeter TTW area stretches out to Okehampton, Tiverton, Honiton, Exmouth, Newton Abbot and Buckfastleigh. So lots of commuters live in Okehampton and work (or are educated) in Exeter. 

 

http://ons.maps.arcgis.com/apps/MapSeries/index.html?appid=397ccae5d5c7472e87cf0ca766386cc2

[Gwiwer]

2 hours ago, JohnR said:

 

The Government defines areas called "Travel to Work Areas" - defined as "a collection of wards for which of the resident economically active population, at least 75% actually work in the area, and also, that of everyone working in the area, at least 75% actually live in the area".

 

The Exeter TTW area stretches out to Okehampton, Tiverton, Honiton, Exmouth, Newton Abbot and Buckfastleigh. So lots of commuters live in Okehampton and work (or are educated) in Exeter. 

 

http://ons.maps.arcgis.com/apps/MapSeries/index.html?appid=397ccae5d5c7472e87cf0ca766386cc2

 

And notable there is the significant improvement in the rail service to the east of Exeter.  With largely a single-track railway SWR and their SWT predecessors have enhanced what was once an alternate-hours service towards Honiton and beyond to at least hourly, most trains now stop at Pinhoe which reopened some years back with only a few peak-time stoppers, more trains stop at Whimple and Feniton (the latter also a reopening, formerly it was Sidmouth Junction) and with the new town under construction all trains stop at the newly-opened Cranbrook station.  

 

Stagecoach, the major local bus operator, has improved services to the many rail-deprived towns with frequent links to Budleigh Slaterton, Sidmouth, Seaton, Lyme Regis and points between, and with some of those routes plugging in to the railway at Axminster and Honiton as well as being centred on Exeter.  The Exeter - Exmouth and Exeter- Tiverton corridors have frequent trains and buses and improvements have been made to links between Newton Abbot, Exeter and intermediate points.  Buckfastleigh remains isolated from the public transport network so far as Exeter is concerned and while Okehampton does have a regular bus into Exeter, some of which serve the villages along the old A30 and some being fast via the new road, a rail return may well prove to be adequately supported to justify the investment required.  

[fezza]

Has anyone noticed the £Billions Boris is planning for new roads? The loose change from that could reopen the entire North Devon and Cornwall network. Local MPs please note... 

[phil-b259]

26 minutes ago, fezza said:

Has anyone noticed the £Billions Boris is planning for new roads? The loose change from that could reopen the entire North Devon and Cornwall network. Local MPs please note... 

 

You rather ignore the fact that once built a road does not require a large subsidy to keep it going.

 

The brutal truth is prospective passenger numbers are far too low to make a positive business case* for re-opening anything in North Devon (other than Oakhampton, which is largely due to a railway of sorts still being in resistance and thus removing land acquisition costs)

 

Railway re-openings thus have an extremely high bar to pass before progressing - particularly in England!

 

* That looking at not just build cost, but also the amount of revenue generated once in operation versus the train leasing and staffing costs, etc

 

Edited July 10, 2020 by phil-b259

[fezza]

Really? Roads round my way are constantly being rebuilt and subsidised through costly repairs - and from damage often caused by foreign lorries. 

 

And that's before the obvious climate change and environmental arguments kick in. 

 

If Okehampton, Torrington and Ilfracombe had staggered on into the mid 1970s (as many Cornish branches did) they would still be here today, however much subsidy was required. What branches survived was largely due to local management decisions, not money. 

[jcredfer]

As far as when I last looked, the line through Crediton and on to Okehampton still exists, hence the topic of this thread.  It would seem that the Heritage company has succumbed to the point that Phil-259 outlined.  It's a shame, but County Hall will be looking at what might be done, but the prospect doesn't look any too promising.

 

44 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

You rather ignore the fact that once built a road does not require a large subsidy to keep it going.

 

The brutal truth is prospective passenger numbers are far too low to make a positive business case* for re-opening anything in North Devon (other than Oakhampton, which is largely due to a railway of sorts still being in resistance and thus removing land acquisition costs)

 

Railway re-openings thus have an extremely high bar to pass before progressing - particularly in England!

 

* That looking at not just build cost, but also the amount of revenue generated once in operation versus the train leasing and staffing costs, etc

 

 

Julian

 

[phil-b259]

3 minutes ago, jcredfer said:

As far as when I last looked, the line through Crediton and on to Okehampton still exists, hence the topic of this thread.  It would seem that the Heritage company has succumbed to the point that Phil-259 outlined.  It's a shame, but County Hall will be looking at what might be done, but the prospect doesn't look any too promising.

 

 

Julian

 

 

Please re-read my post.

 

I specifically indicated the Crediton to Okehampton line as having a potentially better business case precisely because it exists (although needing LOTS of upgrading to make it viable for regular services (as opposed to a Summer Sunday only shoppers service).

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, fezza said:

Really? Roads round my way are constantly being rebuilt and subsidised through costly repairs - and from damage often caused by foreign lorries. 

 

And that's before the obvious climate change and environmental arguments kick in. 

 

If Okehampton, Torrington and Ilfracombe had staggered on into the mid 1970s (as many Cornish branches did) they would still be here today, however much subsidy was required. What branches survived was largely due to local management decisions, not money. 

 

Road maintenance is no different to railway maintenance if you want to be that pedantic about it. The Government (via Network Rail) 'subsidises' the repair of rail infrastructure which is 'damaged' by intensive use or requires specialist skills to renew.

 

The big difference is the Government doesn't also have to pay to hire the lorries and cars which cause said damage (they pay the Government through road tax, plus in theory a levy which all foreign registered lorries must pay to use UK roads). Neither do the Government have to pay the wages of lorry drivers or the vehicle maintainers. Commercial road transport also runs at a profit - NO PASSENGER RAILWAY since WW2 has managed to survive without state handouts in some form, meaning that any rail re-opening will continue to cost the tax payer large sums of money on a ongoing basis where as a new piece of road infrastructure generally results in increased tax receipts in the future.

 

It thus follows that taxpayers who don't use the railway system (which is the majority of the UK population) have to pay for those who do - and the Government has to ensure that monies they invest in rail transport are wisely spent. A positive business case is thus crucial to provide reassurance that the money invested will be produce verifiable benefits

 

The threat of climate change and wider environmental issues do not create magic money trees for the Government to raid, nor do they change social behaviour overnight. Over over the past 80 odd years people have reverted to going back to based on road transport because it is inherently more flexible than any rigid public transport system which has to be dominated by fixed timetables. The ONLY reason the railway system took off in the way it did was the alternatives (Canal, Stagecoach, walking, horse & cart, horseback, etc) were so extremely poor by comparison. Fast forward a century with paved roads, reliable (and affordable) motor cars / lorries which can take you door to door (more quickly than the train in some cases once you factor in the transit time to / from the station at each end) whenever you please is a very different proposition.

 

Where rail has maintained a healthy share its either because the roads are congested and parking is difficult / expensive, rail has a big time advantage, or because many of the users don't have access to a car.

 

 

Edited July 10, 2020 by phil-b259