Okehampton Railway re-opening

[brianusa]

1 hour ago, Gwiwer said:

avistock - Plymouth is horrible and getting worse by the day.  That is why the railway is needed.

 

Is this section dual carriageway?  Been a while so I don't know!  Thanks for the updates though.  A shame the Tavvy branch is gone but who could have foreseen the changes over the years in those early days.  Just think, it was all there once upon a time!

     Brian.

[Kris]

9 hours ago, brianusa said:

 

Is this section dual carriageway?  Been a while so I don't know!  Thanks for the updates though.  A shame the Tavvy branch is gone but who could have foreseen the changes over the years in those early days.  Just think, it was all there once upon a time!

     Brian.

Small parts are once you get into Plymouth, the rest however is not. 

[Siberian Snooper]

Heading in from Yelverton, the Roborough by-pass is dual carriageway, which reverts to single carriageway past what was Turners Garage, then a short bit of dual carriageway at the George (hotel) junction across the end of the defunct airport, then single again down to Derriford roundabout at the top of Looseleigh Lane into the city via Outland Road and Alma Road, the biggest bottleneck is Pennycomequick roundabout. The flyover at Manadon roundabout has been singled, by the use of hatching on the outbound side, but doesn't usually cause too much problem.

 

 

[Oldddudders]

Sadly I am unable to cast any light on the process for getting closure agreed. I was simply called in to talk to Gordon Pettit and Jim Dorward (Regional Planning Manager and hence my boss) in February 1985, to set the closure process in motion. I think the Board had petitioned the SoS quite some time before, possibly a couple of years, on the grounds that more than £1m "needed" to be spent on track renewals on a route that was lucky to see more than one man and his dog on most trains. I think the Board, and certainly the Region, were unprepared for the Decision when it was handed down. The opportunity to flog the land to developers was not lost on the Property Board, who made a success of it, and Deb and I were regular shoppers at the large new Sainsbury's.

 

The issue of Grove Junction was not quite as described above. The HASMOD scheme, which I think had been drafted initially by Keith Cattermole of the Regional Civil Engineer's team - a doughty fighter for what he believed to be right - had, obviously, to let a contract for resignalling. Clearly it would be a lot cheaper for the interlocking at Tunbridge Wells to have plain line at Grove Junction, so their team watched anxiously while we developed our closure timescales. Thanks to excellent work and support from all departments we were able to assure them the service would have ceased by their key date, and I believe the interlocking stands more or less on the former trackbed. 

 

As Andyman suggests, the BR era was largely dogged by a need to reduce costs and save money, and that covers most of the first 30 years of my career. The final 8 were with TOCs only concerned to make money. Neither period was wholly satisfying to anyone who cared about railways and what they can do. 

[009 micro modeller]

Hoping not to go too far off topic, but the list of later closures with specific reasons above reminds me of another one - Croxley Green. Closure of this permitted a new road to breach the trackbed although this actually took place before official closure. This was running only in peak hours and I think it was suggested that the proposed Croxley Rail Link scheme would require the existing service on the line to be withdrawn but was there more to it?

[brianusa]

11 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said:

Heading in from Yelverton, the Roborough by-pass is dual carriageway, which reverts to single carriageway past what was Turners Garage, then a short bit of dual carriageway at the George (hotel) junction across the end of the defunct airport, then single again down to Derriford roundabout at the top of Looseleigh Lane into the city via Outland Road and Alma Road, the biggest bottleneck is Pennycomequick roundabout. The flyover at Manadon roundabout has been singled, by the use of hatching on the outbound side, but doesn't usually cause too much problem.

 

 

It would seem not a heck of a lot has changed over the last fifty years or so, even I can remember the hassles then, especially heading into Mutley.  Thanks for the info!

      Brian. 

[andyman7]

9 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Hoping not to go too far off topic, but the list of later closures with specific reasons above reminds me of another one - Croxley Green. Closure of this permitted a new road to breach the trackbed although this actually took place before official closure. This was running only in peak hours and I think it was suggested that the proposed Croxley Rail Link scheme would require the existing service on the line to be withdrawn but was there more to it?

Croxley Green was an odd one because it came after privatisation - the process of closure being much more cumbersome now. BR had operated the branch peak hours only but in around 1990 tried an all day service. This was not well patronised and in the early 1990s the service was reduced to a single return train a day. The road (Ascot Way) was built before closure but after the branch ceased to perform any effective function and severed the trackbed, so the train was substituted for a bus (well, in the end, a taxi whcih would in theory transport any unlikely passengers). Eventually the statutory process allowed this to be withdrawn. The trackbed is protected for the Croxley link, but the prospect of that has receded for the time being as it requires TfL to invest in a Hertfordshire rail service, and the Mayor does not get any votes for this.

Edited July 19, 2020 by andyman7

[009 micro modeller]

23 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

Croxley Green was an odd one because it came after privatisation - the process of closure being much more cumbersome now. BR had operated the branch peak hours only but in around 1990 tried an all day service. This was not well patronised and in the early 1990s the service was reduced to a single return train a day. The road (Ascot Way) was built before closure but after the branch ceased to perform any effective function and severed the trackbed, so the train was substituted for a bus (well, in the end, a taxi whcih would in theory transport any unlikely passengers). Eventually the statutory process allowed this to be withdrawn. The trackbed is protected for the Croxley link, but the prospect of that has receded for the time being as it requires TfL to invest in a Hertfordshire rail service, and the Mayor does not get any votes for this.

 

Ah yes, I knew about the bus/taxi shenanigans/replacement service, but had forgotten that at closure it was no longer a proper peak hours-only service but only one return working (i.e. less useful, especially as I think the train returned immediately). However I’d be interested to know why the concept of working to an existing intermediate station or terminus further up the branch was not looked at (if the trackbed severance was the main issue, rather than just an excuse that helped the case for closure) or whether maintaining and signalling the junction with the rest of the DC line had anything to do with it (as in some of the other examples of closures mentioned above).

 

Interestingly other examples of closures from around the same time or later that spring to mind often involved replacement by alternative rail transport, which I suppose would also have been the case here if the ability to completely close and rebuild the line (and replace the existing service) was seen as necessary for the link to be built.

[Ramblin Rich]

Just found this on the International Rail Journal site

https://www.railjournal.com/infrastructure/1-2bn-rail-upgrade-proposed-for-southwest-britain/

 

"£1.2bn rail upgrade proposed for southwest Britain

RAIL expert Lord Tony Berkeley and Mr Michael Byng, a chartered quantity surveyor and construction cost consultant, have published a £1.2bn plan to reopen lines and double-track existing lines in southwest Britain."

[Gwiwer]

"The Man in Seat 61" offered his opinion that this item lost all credibility once one saw the name Lord Tony Berkeley attached to it.  

 

There are some reasonable suggestions (re-doubling the rest of the Salisbury - Exeter route being one in my opinion) but unrealistic pipe-dreams include bringing trains back to Padstow as a part of the National Network.  

 

If there is any money to be had after the current emergency is all over and being paid for then let us use it to organically increase capacity rather than throw huge sums at schemes which at best would be bad losers carrying little traffic and draining the public purse (because the private operators would probably not touch them) long into the future.

 

Don't get me wrong.  I am pro-rail.  I am pro-public transport as a whole.  But not anywhere at any cost.  Projects must be reasoned, sensible and offer a service which meets a need.  If we are talking Cornish branch lines then returning a couple of loops to the Newquay line and funding a two-train hourly service all day would probably see a better return.  Whether passengers could ever return to Fowey is another moot point but at least one line is still there.  The need in that area is for travel to St. Austell not Lostwithiel but that route is now a private road.  

[jcredfer]

44 minutes ago, Ramblin Rich said:

Just found this on the International Rail Journal site

https://www.railjournal.com/infrastructure/1-2bn-rail-upgrade-proposed-for-southwest-britain/

 

"£1.2bn rail upgrade proposed for southwest Britain

RAIL expert Lord Tony Berkeley and Mr Michael Byng, a chartered quantity surveyor and construction cost consultant, have published a £1.2bn plan to reopen lines and double-track existing lines in southwest Britain."

Sadly, Covid-19, huge Gov't loans, existing timetable provision and the "priority" word seems to lean toward waste of effort on the part of the proposal.

 

Julian

 

[Ramblin Rich]

Agreed some of this is a bit nonsensical, but I've long thought the Yeovil to Exeter redoubling makes sense, rather than adding more loops. Even dynamic loops will restrict traffic if there are any delays and they effectively "lock in" a timetable/service to match the spacing of the loops. I'd also think that maintaining double track is easier than the pointwork at either end of loops.

Rerouting the Newquay line to St Austell (via disused clay lines)  rather than Par also makes sense for local traffic and capacity improvement.

Sadly, the ideas for Covid 'grreen' recovery seem destined to loose out.

[brianusa]

7 minutes ago, Ramblin Rich said:

 

Rerouting the Newquay line to St Austell (via disused clay lines)  rather than Par also makes sense for local traffic and capacity improvement.

 

Whatever happened to that scheme?  Presumably it was found the current route was adequate, but when the last train leaves Parkandillack it could easily revert to homes or other projects.

    Brian.

[mdvle]

On 21/07/2020 at 16:43, Ramblin Rich said:

Just found this on the International Rail Journal site

https://www.railjournal.com/infrastructure/1-2bn-rail-upgrade-proposed-for-southwest-britain/

 

"£1.2bn rail upgrade proposed for southwest Britain

RAIL expert Lord Tony Berkeley and Mr Michael Byng, a chartered quantity surveyor and construction cost consultant, have published a £1.2bn plan to reopen lines and double-track existing lines in southwest Britain."

 

The cynic in mean thinks this is yet another attempt to kill HS2 by attempting to convince the government there is another way to spend the money.

 

And while I can't be bothered to find it yet again, it seem to recall that the NR cost estimates for the LSWR route is somewhere around double what this proposal estimates, which calls into question the entire report.

[phil-b259]

On 21/07/2020 at 23:47, brianusa said:

Whatever happened to that scheme?  Presumably it was found the current route was adequate, but when the last train leaves Parkandillack it could easily revert to homes or other projects.

    Brian.

 

I think it was a DfT inspired scheme dating from the 1990s and although it might be more handy for some passengers I suspect the real motivation would be to shut the railway over Gros Moor so it could be used to widen the A30 to dual carriageway while also saving money on maintaining the railway via Bugle.

 

Fast forward three decades and the A30 has been dualled on an offline route (increased environmental concerns meant anything which involved touching Gros Moor SSI became a no-go during the early 2000s) while the whole franchising system makes it pretty awkward to mess round with service patterns, plus of course the closure of Roche, Bugle & Luxulyn stations is even harder to force through today.

 

I have often thought that some sort of round robin setup (Newquay - Bugle - Par - St Austel - St Denis - Newquary) service might be a good option, but that is going to need more trains, traincrew and no doubt some significant infrastructure investment that will never have a decent BCR under the current rules.

[Kris]

12 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

The cynic in mean thinks this is yet another attempt to kill HS2 by attempting to convince the government there is another way to spend the money.

I'd say that it was politically motivated. 

[Ramblin Rich]

22 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

The cynic in mean thinks this is yet another attempt to kill HS2 by attempting to convince the government there is another way to spend the money.

 

And while I can't be bothered to find it yet again, it seem to recall that the NR cost estimates for the LSWR route is somewhere around double what this proposal estimates, which calls into question the entire report.

Agree the numbers seem very optimistic compared to other studies, but I can't see it's relevant to HS2. Or is the thought to be a distraction?

[KeithMacdonald]

Good news for Okehampton?

 

Quote

We are led to believe that stone from the currently ‘mothballed’ Meldon Quarry is earmarked to be used in relation to the highly controversial HS2 rail project to replace large amounts of ballast from other quarries serving the HS2 construction between London and Birmingham.  .. In the unlikely event that the aggregate will be transported by road if Meldon Quarry is to reopen, then the only other viable and obvious alternative is to transport the ballast by rail. This will require a stable, safe and reliable local rail network connecting to the main line, suggesting that the reinstatement of the Oke to Exeter railway line is perhaps more certain now than previously thought.

 

https://themoorlander.co.uk/oke-rail-update-light-at-the-end-of-the-tunnel/

 

The aggregate will be moved to a new factory "near Shepton Mallet"

 

Quote

A partnership which includes PORR UK Ltd and Aggregate Industries UK has won a major contract to design and manufacture the modular track system for HS2. The deal will see the slab track segments manufactured at a new factory near Shepton Mallet

 

https://www.railengineer.co.uk/porr-aggregate-industries-consortium-wins-hs2-modular-track-contract/

[Gwiwer]

On 23/07/2020 at 10:37, phil-b259 said:

 

I think it was a DfT inspired scheme dating from the 1990s and although it might be more handy for some passengers I suspect the real motivation would be to shut the railway over Gros Moor so it could be used to widen the A30 to dual carriageway while also saving money on maintaining the railway via Bugle.

 

Fast forward three decades and the A30 has been dualled on an offline route (increased environmental concerns meant anything which involved touching Gros Moor SSI became a no-go during the early 2000s) while the whole franchising system makes it pretty awkward to mess round with service patterns, plus of course the closure of Roche, Bugle & Luxulyn stations is even harder to force through today.

 

I have often thought that some sort of round robin setup (Newquay - Bugle - Par - St Austel - St Denis - Newquary) service might be a good option, but that is going to need more trains, traincrew and no doubt some significant infrastructure investment that will never have a decent BCR under the current rules.

It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that St. Dennis Junction could be reinstated and the line south from there reinstated / upgraded for passenger use to St. Austell.  That would give a potentially more useful service and might include at least one new intermediate station.  If the trains run forward to Par then no berthing is required at St. Austell and of course once at Par they could return up the Luxulyan Valley towards Newquay.  Line capacity was decimated when the branch beyond Goonbarrow was effectively reduced to siding status, Newquay reduced to a single platform and St. Dennis ceased to become a crossing place.  Commercially Newquay might not support an hourly year-round service but should be capable of supporting at least a Gunnislake-style alternate-hours service and with summer extras which currently cannot exist because there is no line capacity.  Trains earlier than mid-morning might also prove worthwhile.  The Luxulyan route would have to be maintained or closed meaning it either becomes part of a loop or survives at unrealistic cost on a single parliamentary train plus occasional freight.  

 

Back on topic Meldon Quarry is said to be not nearly exhausted so the option to reopen it has always been there.  This of course has implications for any heritage operation in the area but the two could co-exist.  What could very happily co-exist is a NR-standard single line up to Okehampton with an hourly passenger service and pathing for ballast trains to / from Meldon as required.  There might not be a lot spare given the round-trip time up to Okehampton but it may be possible, subject to signalling, to path a freight up just ahead of the passenger and lock it in to Meldon.  The laden trips in the other direction then follow a passenger working down.  Tight but probably achievable with a 75mph line speed.  

[KeithMacdonald]

Latest news?

 

In the Policy paper, National Infrastructure Strategy

Quote

The National Infrastructure Strategy sets out plans to transform UK infrastructure in order to level up the country, strengthen the Union and achieve net zero emissions by 2050.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-infrastructure-strategy

 

The part that's relevant to this topic?

 

Quote

“The government will also deliver on its manifesto commitment to spend £500 million to restore transport services previously lost in the Beeching cuts of the 1960s, including reopening the Ashington-Blyth line in Northumberland to passenger services, and restoring rail links to Okehampton in Devon.”

 

 

[Gwiwer]

So far so good.  If only they could also manage to kick the behinds of those who effectively stalled the Tavistock scheme.  That is a larger town than Okehampton and the major traffic flow into Plymouth passes through areas of congestion often rather worse than found between Okehampton and Exeter.   

[Steadfast]

There's rumours going round at work that Meldon is reopening for HS2 so ties in with the thread. No one's sure, but possibly Colas taking the stone out. The Aggregate Industries site near Shepton, could that be Merehead? Rail connected too if they end up railing the slab track out to where it's needed

 

Jo

[brianusa]

Colas is losing the Moorswater business for whatever reason, so they might be glad of the extra work.  What's happening with Cornish business; seems to be rather fraught right now?  Why is Treviscoe mothballed, Parkandillick rusting and no more freight past Coombe.  Not much income either probably. 

 

     Brian.

 

[KeithMacdonald]

Better news from Okehampton?

 

Quote

 

THE GOVERNMENT has confirmed a passenger rail service will be restored to Okehampton.

The railway was included in this week’s Government Comprehensive Spending Review and the National Infrastructure Strategy.

County councillor Kevin Ball said he believed an official announcement that the line would be reopening would be made soon.

He added: ‘After many false hopes, this is confirmation that it’s going to happen. I am delighted, because the Government made a commitment to invest around the country and not just in urban areas and they are doing just that.’

 

 

https://www.okehampton-today.co.uk/article.cfm?id=439790&headline=The Government confirms that passenger rail link will be restored to Okehampton&sectionIs=news&searchyear=2020

 

[Oldddudders]

Compared with the ongoing nightmare that is 2020, our Sunday trip from Okehampton to Exeter last year, including a nice lunch and some shopping, now seems a different world altogether. If - apparently now when - this becomes a regular service it will be very good news indeed. And the true outdoor enthusiast will relish getting onto Dartmoor by easy public transport.