Okehampton Railway re-opening

[Ramblin Rich]

There is track at both platforms, unless something changed during the relaying.

It used to be that the Dartmoor Railway trains used the southern platform and the Exeter 'Sunday' trains used the northern platform, alongside the main building. It's sensible that the Exeter trains use the northern platform as it will mean direct step free access to/from the Exeter trains.

Edited July 4, 2021 by Ramblin Rich
clarification

[009 micro modeller]

21 minutes ago, Ramblin Rich said:

There is track at both platforms, unless something changed during the relaying.

 

Interesting photos here: https://www.dartmoor-railway-association.org

 

I can’t work out if the southern platform is still connected post-relaying, or exactly how it was connected previously.

[mdvle]

59 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Interesting photos here: https://www.dartmoor-railway-association.org

 

That same website in it's News section says the 2 Thumpers were sold to the Caledonian Railway, with a picture of most of one of them up in Scotland.

 

https://www.dartmoor-railway-association.org/news

 

(for anyone in the future given no direct linking possible, posted 17/06/2021)

 

 

[009 micro modeller]

6 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

That same website in it's News section says the 2 Thumpers were sold to the Caledonian Railway, with a picture of most of one of them up in Scotland.

 

https://www.dartmoor-railway-association.org/news

 

(for anyone in the future given no direct linking possible, posted 17/06/2021)

 

 

 

And yet despite the Thumpers’ departure, they say the future of the Meldon to Okehampton section is still undecided. It sounds from the news page as though all/most of the Dartmoor Railway CIC stock has been sold, I was under the impression that BARS was separate from this and that their stock was also gone. Not sure about the stock owned by the DRA itself though.

[rodent279]

On 24/06/2021 at 14:50, Reorte said:

 The only way I could see it happening is if Exeter - Okehampton and Plymouth - Tavistock are viable in their own right and it then being regarded as not too expensive to fill in the bit between Okehampton and Tavistock and run the regular services all the way through, with the end result of something being a bit more expensive than doing what'll definitely pay for itself.

 

That would work if the two ends were a mile or two apart, but I can't see it being enough to bridge the distance between Tavistock and Okehampton (even though nowadays it would probably be enough to keep it if it hadn't been closed but was threatened with it). Okehampton and Tavistock alone seem to be struggling to get attention as it is.

The gap that needs bridging between Tavistock & Okehampton is 25km, give or take a bit. With Bere Alston-Tavistock (about 9.5km) already costed at £93m, as further up in the thread, that works out at ~£10m/km, so reinstatement of the whole line between Bere Alston & Okehampton would be in the region of £350m. Add in whatever is required to bring the two existing stretches of line at either end up to scratch, and we could easily be looking at £400-450m.

How much has a Dawlish railway bypass been costed at?

[Rivercider]

17 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

 

How much has a Dawlish railway bypass been costed at?

I know it is not directly comparable but the 3.4 mile South Devon Link Road bypassing Kingskerswell which opened in 2015 cost £110m. I suspect land in that area will not come cheap.

 

cheers

[rodent279]

1 minute ago, Rivercider said:

I know it is not directly comparable but the 3.4 mile South Devon Link Road bypassing Kingskerswell which opened in 2015 cost £110m. I suspect land in that area will not come cheap.

 

cheers

Assuming similar costs, and assuming about 10km of new railway, that's around £230m.

That's about twice the cost per km of reinstatement over the old railway between Bere Alston & Tavistock. Probably not unreasonable.

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, rodent279 said:

The gap that needs bridging between Tavistock & Okehampton is 25km, give or take a bit. With Bere Alston-Tavistock (about 9.5km) already costed at £93m, as further up in the thread, that works out at ~£10m/km, so reinstatement of the whole line between Bere Alston & Okehampton would be in the region of £350m. Add in whatever is required to bring the two existing stretches of line at either end up to scratch, and we could easily be looking at £400-450m.

How much has a Dawlish railway bypass been costed at?

 

If I recall correctly somewhere in the very long Dawlish thread were some figures for both the Dawlish bypass and upgrading the former LSWR route - and note that I said upgrade and not restore.

 

And don't forget the cost for a replacement for Meldon Viaduct in your estimates...

 

 

[Northmoor]

6 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

If I recall correctly somewhere in the very long Dawlish thread were some figures for both the Dawlish bypass and upgrading the former LSWR route - and note that I said upgrade and not restore.

 

And don't forget the cost for a replacement for Meldon Viaduct in your estimates...

Certainly an awful lot for a railway that is only essential for about one week every ten years.

[rodent279]

Somewhere, I can't remember where, I've seen "restoring" if that's an appropriate word, the LSW route via Meldon costed at circa £900m, and a new Dawlish bypass at circa £1bn.

For me, the bypass wins, as you end up with less additional miles to maintain, and it can be built to a high standard, suitable for higher speeds than the current coastal route.

The problem with a revived LSW route would be that it would still be a twisty, turny hilly route, that as far as through traffic is concerned, would require reversal at Exeter & Plymouth, unless you're prepared to spend additional £m's to straighten it. A new, or at least major rebuilt Meldon viaduct is required, and IIRC, at least one of the tunnels needs enlarging to meet modern standards.

[rodent279]

1 hour ago, mdvle said:

 

If I recall correctly somewhere in the very long Dawlish thread were some figures for both the Dawlish bypass and upgrading the former LSWR route - and note that I said upgrade and not restore.

 

And don't forget the cost for a replacement for Meldon Viaduct in your estimates...

 

 

Doesn't one or more of the tunnels need major work as well?

[Zomboid]

10 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

The problem with a revived LSW route would be that it would still be a twisty, turny hilly route, that as far as through traffic is concerned, would require reversal at Exeter & Plymouth, unless you're prepared to spend additional £m's to straighten it. A

It's not too bad in that respect between Exeter and Okehampton, and there is no railway between there and Bere Alston, so that part doesn't need to be twisty & turny or follow the old route.

Bere Alston to Plymouth is probably stuck how it is.

[Gwiwer]

If you seriously costed the entire Okehampton - Bere Alston section, given that the rest either is or will be open, then Meldon Viaduct is likely to be the biggest single cost item and may require a complete rebuild.   But relocating or repurchasing the trackbed over the long-closed middle section is likely to be the most technically demanding and time-consuming.  

 

There seems to be a push once more to get Tavistock reopened.  Some of St. Budeaux to Bere Alston could be re-doubled to accommodate a more frequent trains service than once in two  hours.  The flat junction at St. Budeaux and the layout thence into Plymouth can almost certainly accommodate two more trains per hour (each way) than currently without modification though an hourly Tavistock would only give one additional service each hour.  

 

It was said when Bathgate reopened that it would never be connected to Glasgow.  The same was said at the other end when the Airdrie line was extended to Drumgelloch.  It took a fair few years and a good deal of support and (iirc) finance from the Scottish Parliament but the two ends were joined.  It's not the busiest route between Edinburgh and Glasgow, the most recently reopened stations are still very quiet on the whole and it isn't available for main line diversions although having the three other routes all closed simultaneously would require a hideously rare combination of misfortunes.  But it serves to show what might be possible.

 

However I remain of the opinion that there is nowhere near enough traffic to be had to make Okehampton - Tavistock worthwhile on a local basis nor is it good value for money as a diversionary route for perhaps a few days a year nor in case of a long-term closure along the coast which might never occur.  But in an era when there is more support for railways even with reduced passenger numbers there might be a long-term proposal which succeeds.  I don't expect to be around to see it though.  The Brighton - Plymouth train calling at Okehampton and Tavistock is a long-dead duck.  

Edited July 6, 2021 by Gwiwer

[rodent279]

I can see the sense in restoring Tavistock to the network, and in restoring services to Okehampton. The rest, for me, doesn't add up. Not now. Maybe it shouldn't have closed in the first place-but that alone doesn't justify reopening in my humble opinion.

[ess1uk]

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/work-continues-on-dartmoor-line-restoration-03-08-2021/
 

ongoing

[009 micro modeller]

On a slightly different note, does anyone have any more specific idea of what is happening with the remains of the heritage operation at Meldon? I notice that the Dartmoor Railway Association list as one of their objectives (which I think they’ve already revised to reflect the change in circumstances on the line) ‘to explore the possibility of operating heritage rail services between Okehampton and Meldon Viaduct’ (see https://www.dartmoor-railway-association.org/aboutDRA).

 

The DRA also seem to be retaining the coaches that they own themselves (independently of the CIC) and there are some suggestions (probably including quite a lot of speculation though) on the National Preservation forum that they might look to run some form of heritage service on the Okehampton using their own coaches and the Aggregate Industries class 08 which remains on site (although will it stay long term?). Although another of their objectives is ‘to support the 'Dartmoor Line' Exeter - Okehampton rail service, and Okehampton Station’ - presumably this is currently a higher priority. However, it would be nice to one day be able to travel by National Rail to Okehampton and then change for a ride to the viaduct behind S103.

 

Obviously any heritage service would depend to some extent on whether the quarry reopens and how this fits in (although doesn’t part of the GCR (Nottingham) involve a section of track which is alternately unlocked for either Network Rail freight or the heritage line? I don’t know how similar the situation is there though). At the same time, the DRA also apparently supports the full reinstatement of Exeter to Plymouth, which if it did go ahead would presumably stop them from running a heritage service to Meldon.

[brianusa]

So many theories and ideas over the run of this topic!  Sadly, it is doubtful any will come to fruition except of course, the one between OKE - EXE.

However, it has provided much interest on the subject so long may it continue.  

  Brian.

[009 micro modeller]

17 minutes ago, brianusa said:

So many theories and ideas over the run of this topic!  Sadly, it is doubtful any will come to fruition except of course, the one between OKE - EXE.

However, it has provided much interest on the subject so long may it continue.  

  Brian.

 

I didn’t really want to encourage too much wild speculation, I was just pointing out that apparently the DRA do still have the operation of heritage services to Meldon as an ‘objective’ (and one of their press releases from October 2020 describes this as a ‘long term aspiration’ or words to that effect). Interestingly I was reading this article earlier, which suggests that further upgrades to the permanent way would be needed to allow heavy freight to run again (if the quarry reopened): https://www.keymodernrailways.com/article/okehampton-shoots-2021-opening

 

‘If a freight revival does become a real possibility, NR will have to revisit construction standards on the branch. In keeping with Project Speed principles, the 2021 restoration work is being done with light DMUs in mind: a return of heavy freight trains may require some strengthening works.’

 

[Oldddudders]

5 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

‘If a freight revival does become a real possibility, NR will have to revisit construction standards on the branch. In keeping with Project Speed principles, the 2021 restoration work is being done with light DMUs in mind: a return of heavy freight trains may require some strengthening works.’

This is right and proper. NR is doing what the customer asks and reinstating a railway which is fit for the specified traffic. No overt gold-plating. In BR days it was too easy to re-cast a WTT that removed services from one route without the engineering standards of that route being reviewed.

 

I recall that in 1978 the Central Division re-cast the WTT to better serve the Great God of Gatwick. This involved diversion of the Mid-Sussex services via Sutton, Dorking and Horsham, which had been a key service since Victorian times, down the Brighton Main Line and via Hove. It was nearly a decade later, now as an NSE sub-sector, that I asked my senior colleague why the former route was still being maintained for 90 mph linespeed, a question he regarded as a "showstopper". It was nobody's fault - before the Businesses, BR simply wasn't structured for such decisions to be taken - but the RCE had been paying a lot more money for that track to be maintained than the more modest WTT now demanded.

 

Evidently the industry has learned.   

[corneliuslundie]

The obvious precedent for mixing heritage and commercial services is the NYMR, though there it is the other way round, with NYMR trains running on NR tracks. At least if the Meldon line were upgraded for mineral traffic there would be no problem about lightweight passenger trains using it.

Jonathan

[Kris]

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

The obvious precedent for mixing heritage and commercial services is the NYMR, though there it is the other way round, with NYMR trains running on NR tracks. At least if the Meldon line were upgraded for mineral traffic there would be no problem about lightweight passenger trains using it.

Jonathan

Theoretically the challenges of running a heritage service at Meldon should be less than that at the NYMR. This would be due to the level of traffic and also the length of the line. 

[Northmoor]

3 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

This is right and proper. NR is doing what the customer asks and reinstating a railway which is fit for the specified traffic. No overt gold-plating. In BR days it was too easy to re-cast a WTT that removed services from one route without the engineering standards of that route being reviewed.

 

I recall that in 1978 the Central Division re-cast the WTT to better serve the Great God of Gatwick. This involved diversion of the Mid-Sussex services via Sutton, Dorking and Horsham, which had been a key service since Victorian times, down the Brighton Main Line and via Hove. It was nearly a decade later, now as an NSE sub-sector, that I asked my senior colleague why the former route was still being maintained for 90 mph linespeed, a question he regarded as a "showstopper". It was nobody's fault - before the Businesses, BR simply wasn't structured for such decisions to be taken - but the RCE had been paying a lot more money for that track to be maintained than the more modest WTT now demanded.

 

Evidently the industry has learned.   

It seems hard to believe now; a route as close to London and in wealthy stockbroker belt like Dorking-Horsham, went Peak Hours Only.

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

The obvious precedent for mixing heritage and commercial services is the NYMR, though there it is the other way round, with NYMR trains running on NR tracks. At least if the Meldon line were upgraded for mineral traffic there would be no problem about lightweight passenger trains using it.

Jonathan

 

Who owns the Okehampton to Meldon bit now? If it’s still owned by Aggregate Industries then it would be a private industrial line and Appleby Frodingham might be a precedent.

 

As far as I understand it, the NYMR, at Whitby, runs into its own platform out of the way of the National Rail service, so in a sense it’s running from one private railway to another, not calling at any intermediate NR stations. But the Whitby line has a regular passenger service - I don’t know how frequent any ballast trains to Meldon would be (and would their presence require absolutely everything else to be locked in at one end until the stone train had left again, including loading, or just while it was running along the Okehampton to Meldon line?). The suggestion that the line is currently too light for stone trains seems to cast some doubt on reopening for freight though.

 

The Ribble Steam Railway actually hauls freight received from outside over its own route using Ribble Rail’s locos. I’m not suggesting that a similar loco change would occur at Okehampton (obviously) but in this context it would be interesting to know how the Ribble freight operations interact with their heritage passenger trains, or whether they’re just kept totally separate and not even run on the same day.

Edited August 15, 2021 by 009 micro modeller

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

It seems hard to believe now; a route as close to London and in wealthy stockbroker belt like Dorking-Horsham, went Peak Hours Only.

No, it wasn't peak hours, but the former fast trains, calling only at Sutton, Dorking and Horsham, for which 90 mph was appropriate, simply went the other way. Thriving regular stopping services continued, as they still do. In fact off-peak there is now a better service than there was when I first worked at Dorking in 1966. 

[phil-b259]

13 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

No, it wasn't peak hours, but the former fast trains, calling only at Sutton, Dorking and Horsham, for which 90 mph was appropriate, simply went the other way. Thriving regular stopping services continued, as they still do. In fact off-peak there is now a better service than there was when I first worked at Dorking in 1966. 

 

IIRC there was a period around 1992 when the Dorking - Horsham section WAS peak hours only, or a Horsham - Dorking shuttle using one unit to save on costs.

 

Thing is, apart from Holmwood (which is actually located within the village of South Holmwood) the other two stations are a long way from the places they purport to serve and have very low footfall.