Okehampton Railway re-opening

[Oldddudders]

Yes, Phil. Sherry lived for some years in Capel, apparently - according to the station name - one of the communities served by Ockley & Capel, as the station was then called. It was quite some distance away. Warnham village is right over the other side of the A24. Back in the '60s we would drink in the Sussex Oak there, and one route back home was via the station level crossing - which was closed on Sunday nights!

[Reorte]

On 15/08/2021 at 09:58, 009 micro modeller said:

The Ribble Steam Railway actually hauls freight received from outside over its own route using Ribble Rail’s locos. I’m not suggesting that a similar loco change would occur at Okehampton (obviously) but in this context it would be interesting to know how the Ribble freight operations interact with their heritage passenger trains, or whether they’re just kept totally separate and not even run on the same day.

I believe (but don't know for certain) that they're never both running on the same day.

[009 micro modeller]

7 hours ago, Reorte said:

I believe (but don't know for certain) that they're never both running on the same day.

 

Is that a safety thing though or just to do with space available?

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Is that a safety thing though or just to do with space available?

No idea. I just have a vague collection of reading it somewhere once upon a time - I'm afraid using me as  a source of information on this is at the level of "heard it from a bloke in the pub."

[96701]

22 hours ago, Reorte said:

I believe (but don't know for certain) that they're never both running on the same day.

From Wikipedia:

 

A separate company, Ribble Rail, handles the freight traffic that uses the dock lines. Ribble Rail takes over from the Colas Rail locomotive, and carries the load – Bitumen – down to the Total plant near the Preston Riverside station.

A Colas Rail-operated train arrives at the riverside sidings near Strand Road Crossing with loaded oil tanks. The locomotive uncouples, runs round and takes the empty wagons. This process occurs very early in the morning on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays.

From here Ribble Rail shunts these wagons to the siding serving the nearby Total bitumen plant. After unloading, Ribble Rail returns the wagons to the riverside sidings for pick-up.

[slow8dirty]

Cycled past here today,( very pleasant, the return via the top of Sourton Tors a bit more "active").  Saw several low loaders arrived at Meldon and the 08 starting to shuffle some very distressed carriages. Wasn't aware of the recent history here, but looks like a fairly significant stock relocation/disposal occurring today?

[ess1uk]

a thought has occurred to me about Yeoford station.

is there any plan to reopen the other platform for trains to Okehampton?

 

[bgman]

6 hours ago, ess1uk said:

a thought has occurred to me about Yeoford station.

is there any plan to reopen the other platform for trains to Okehampton?

 

 

Up until 2 1/2 years ago I lived there and despite lots of rumours over 30 years there has never been any specific plans to reopen that side of the line. I could be proven wrong ? 

[phil-b259]

On 06/10/2021 at 16:00, bgman said:

 

Up until 2 1/2 years ago I lived there and despite lots of rumours over 30 years there has never been any specific plans to reopen that side of the line. I could be proven wrong ? 

 

Given re-opening to Okehampton is being done on a shoestring budget (the track and drainage being so shot its renewal was essential rather than being a nice to do job)  and only a 2hrly service is planned then its fair to say there is zero plans to do anything to the Cowley Bridge - Yeoford section.

 

IF and its a big IF, patronage of the new service is good then extra infrastructure may be provided to allow an hourly service though exactly what form that might take is open to conjecture.

 

 

[bgman]

For those of us who wanted to use the Summer Service from Yeoford to Okehampton on a Sunday ( if it ran- mainly due to staffing ) it was a case of catching the earliest train into Crediton. There was quite a wait there and also the return journey was a similar situation.

 

Sadly not worth the effort unless someone drove into Crediton to catch the service.

[Zomboid]

There's not a whole lot at Yeoford, looking on the map. I could imagine a scenario where the junction is moved from Crediton back to the divergence to double (dynamic loop) that bit of the route, in which case both platforms would be needed and so Okehampton trains could call, but beyond that there's probably not the need.

[bgman]

3 hours ago, Zomboid said:

There's not a whole lot at Yeoford

 

Not now maybe but many years ago it was a hive of activity with the railway employing many of the local population, even to the extent of having a cafe on the platform. 

When I moved there some 32 years ago it was a very active village but sadly many people moved and with more wealthy "in-comers" buying the houses and using them as weekend retreats the usual thing has happened.

I still live along the same line which would enable me to get to Okehampton should I so wish and I for one hope it will get more use in the future.

[ess1uk]

4 hours ago, Zomboid said:

There's not a whole lot at Yeoford, looking on the map. I could imagine a scenario where the junction is moved from Crediton back to the divergence to double (dynamic loop) that bit of the route, in which case both platforms would be needed and so Okehampton trains could call, but beyond that there's probably not the need.

so basically because it has been reopened down to a budget, if you wanted to go to Okehampton from Yeoford when the service starts in December, you have to go to Crediton to travel back to Okehampton and just as mad in reverse.

wonder how many will bother?

Edited October 8, 2021 by ess1uk
clarity

[Oldddudders]

1 minute ago, ess1uk said:

so basically if you wanted to go to Okehampton from Yeoford when the service starts in December, you have to go to Crediton to travel back to Okehampton and just as mad in reverse.

wonder how many will bother?

A few hardy types might do it once. 

[Kris]

3 minutes ago, ess1uk said:

so basically if you wanted to go to Okehampton from Yeoford when the service starts in December, you have to go to Crediton to travel back to Okehampton and just as mad in reverse.

wonder how many will bother?

I can't imagine that many would use a direct service from Yeoford to Okehampton even if it did exist. 

[Zomboid]

28 minutes ago, ess1uk said:

so basically because it has been reopened down to a budget, if you wanted to go to Okehampton from Yeoford when the service starts in December, you have to go to Crediton to travel back to Okehampton and just as mad in reverse.

wonder how many will bother?

According to the internet, there are 1324 inhabitants in the parish of Yeoford. I don't know how many of them would want to get the train to Okehampton on a regular enough basis to warrant what would essentially be a new station (you can essentially forget the old platform, it would have to be built to 2021 standards and PRM accessible), but I think it would need to be a sizeable proportion of the population.

 

Of course there may be people from Okehampton who want to get the train to Yeoford, but I doubt that would change the maths greatly.

 

People from the remainder of the world can already get a train to Yeoford. The only hope I can see for a platform and service towards Okehampton is if two track operation is needed between Coleford Jn and Crediton.

[ess1uk]

2 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

The only hope I can see for a platform and service towards Okehampton is if two track operation is needed between Coleford Jn and Crediton.

which would mean a re-signalling and probably the closure of Crediton box?

not cheap.

unless signalling equipment is due for replacement and they go for ERTMS, also not cheap.

[Zomboid]

One would imagine that if a double track/ dynamic loop upgrade was needed on the Barnstaple/ Dartmoor route then it would involve resignalling from Cowley Bridge northwards and closure of Crediton signal box. But that's very hypothetical, since no such proposal is in the public domain.

Edited October 8, 2021 by Zomboid

[Gwiwer]

16 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

only a 2hrly service is planned then its fair to say there is zero plans to do anything to the Cowley Bridge - Yeoford section.

I believe there are plans for the service to increase to hourly.  For this to happen three may need to be some creative timetabling allowing the crossing moves and very tight turnbacks up at Okehampton otherwise it's going to mean more money and more significant reinstatement of infrastructure.  If any of the intermediate stations were to reopen then more time will also be needed which isn't possible on the planned schedule.  In other words the cost of reopening somewhere like North Tawton is massively increased by the need to also provide an additional loop or return the physical junction with the Barnstaple line to Coleford - possibly both.  

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, Gwiwer said:

I believe there are plans for the service to increase to hourly.  For this to happen three may need to be some creative timetabling allowing the crossing moves and very tight turnbacks up at Okehampton otherwise it's going to mean more money and more significant reinstatement of infrastructure.  If any of the intermediate stations were to reopen then more time will also be needed which isn't possible on the planned schedule.  In other words the cost of reopening somewhere like North Tawton is massively increased by the need to also provide an additional loop or return the physical junction with the Barnstaple line to Coleford - possibly both.  

 

I have read that additional infrastructure is definitely required for an hourly service - its not just the ability to make crossing moves that matter, whatever service pattern is desired must also be able to slot in between mainline services between Cowley Bridge Junc and Exeter.

 

The later is also a consideration with 'robust-ness' of the timetable - make things too tight and any late running could have significant implications on well away from Okehampton / Barnstable services, yet keep cancelling Okehampton / Barnstable trains so as to avoid propagating delays to the wider network isn't going to be appreciated by users.

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, ess1uk said:

which would mean a re-signalling and probably the closure of Crediton box?

not cheap.

unless signalling equipment is due for replacement and they go for ERTMS, also not cheap.

 

Depends on the scheme.

 

The BCR for making alterations to Exeter panel so as to do away with Crediton box in isolation is going to be poor (not to say it might trigger problems with signallers workload too). Similarly installing a new workstaion in a ROC just to control the area west of Cowley Bridge Junc is also going to be poor.

 

 Thus if an extra loop is added west of Cowley Bridge Junc as part of a Okehampton / Barnstable enhancement scheme  then it will most likely be added onto the existing Crediton box.

 

However if it can be subsumed into a larger scheme - e.g. the transfer of the wider Exeter area from the 1980s PSB to the Didcot ROC say then yes Crediton would most likely go.

[phil-b259]

3 hours ago, ess1uk said:

so basically because it has been reopened down to a budget, if you wanted to go to Okehampton from Yeoford when the service starts in December, you have to go to Crediton to travel back to Okehampton and just as mad in reverse.

wonder how many will bother?

 

Not many - but how many folk are going to want to go from Yeoford to Okehampton in the first place! Anyone living in Yeoford is far more likely to want to go to Crediton or Exeter, while those from Okehampton will be looking at Exeter and beyond as their destination.

 

Its worth remembering that many railway reopening or enhancement schemes are deemed so expensive that you cannot afford to make the BCR any worse by adding extra costs which attract marginal revenue.

 

For starters consider these:-

 

Installing a loop on the Falmouth branch - the costs of adding a disability compliment footbridge would have sunk the scheme, so the successful scheme came up with the extra long platform split into two idea as an alternative.

 

Rebuilding the Waverly route:- the costs of making the entire route double track would have sunk the scheme, so the successful scheme saw dynamic passing loops installed at certain locations to provide the half hourly passenger service.

 

The costs of rebuilding the short Bere Alston to Tavistock section have shot up and pushed the BCR into negative territory so its been put on ice.

 

The costs of refurbishing / rebuilding the Portishead branch have been far grater than originally estimated and again pushed the BCR into negative territory with the result that its still not come to pass (though it is still just about alive).

 

 

[phil-b259]

3 hours ago, Zomboid said:

According to the internet, there are 1324 inhabitants in the parish of Yeoford. I don't know how many of them would want to get the train to Okehampton on a regular enough basis to warrant what would essentially be a new station (you can essentially forget the old platform, it would have to be built to 2021 standards and PRM accessible), but I think it would need to be a sizeable proportion of the population.

 

 

Yeoford simply wouldn't have a station if the railway was being built now!

 

Its worth remembering when railways were being built there was no such thing as motor vehicles and in the Yeoford area most people would have got about on foot or via animal power. This state of affairs generated substantial revenue from small populations and coupled with goods traffic justified the construction of hundreds of stations in rural areas like Yeoford.

 

Those days are however long gone - new build railways (which is what the Okehampton service effectively IS) are not in the business of catering for tiny passenger flows. They are there to transport significant numbers of people between large population centres - in this case Okehampton and Exeter both of which are linked by a high speed fully grade separated dual carriageway that outside of the summer months generally flows well and which makes it a lot harder for the railway to be successful. Adding in stops for small villages only hinders rails ability to compete....

[bgman]

11 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

Not many - but how many folk are going to want to go from Yeoford to Okehampton in the first place! Anyone living in Yeoford is far more likely to want to go to Crediton or Exeter, while those from Okehampton will be looking at Exeter and beyond as their destination.

 

That's it in a nutshell, most of those who use the line on a regular basis either shop / work in Crediton / Exeter or have a jolly up to Barnstaple. 

Some of the "original" villagers that I know rarely went to Okehampton other than to visit relatives or for a limited number work.

 

Okehampton as some may well know provides a springboard for beautiful Dartmoor but as to shopping there I pity anyone having to haul their bags back up the hill to the station.

Sorry if my response seems a little negative but having first hand knowledge I can be fairly certain of what I have said.

[JohnR]

46 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Depends on the scheme.

 

The BCR for making alterations to Exeter panel so as to do away with Crediton box in isolation is going to be poor (not to say it might trigger problems with signallers workload too). Similarly installing a new workstaion in a ROC just to control the area west of Cowley Bridge Junc is also going to be poor.

 

 

 

Hasnt Exeter panel just taken over part of the Cornish main line when some semaphore boxes were abolished?