Okehampton Railway re-opening

[Northmoor]

9 hours ago, Not Jeremy said:

1. They have spent a lot of taxpayers cash on reopening the major part of the route to Okehampton and are bound to be seeing how it goes. And it is going well.

As enthusiasts we have a tendency to drill down into detail, which is absolutely fair enough, but in the real world ideas (good or bad) are rarely pushed forwards on the back of sweating the details.

 

Actually that is exactly how ideas get progressed, because the detailed evidence (such as it is, traffic prediction is not an exact science) is what dictates whether the ideas warrant further investigation.  As for Okehampton going well, that is good to hear but if you were intending to spend a large wad of government money, you'd be looking at at least three years of traffic data before making a decision.  As for using it to justify extending the line to Tavistock and Plymouth, a 2-car DMU every hour or so - even if it's always full - isn't going to be close to doing that.

[mdvle]

9 hours ago, Not Jeremy said:

That's all fair enough, but I think misses the point.

 

Not really.

 

9 hours ago, Not Jeremy said:

The website as set up may be by one person, but what is interesting is that he puts forward a "new" idea, ie the "early" replacement of the Northern route.

 

And website, Facebook groups, etc. are all easy to set up to try and push thousands of different local priorities and dreams.

 

9 hours ago, Not Jeremy said:

So, if you were a Whitehall mandarin with cash to throw about, and you looked at his site, then it might give you some ideas....

 

If you are a Whitehall mandarin with £300m+ to throw about, you won't be throwing it at North Devon.

 

Because it gains you nothing.

 

Because Devon essentially reliably votes Conservative once you get outside Exeter and Plymouth.

 

Now, if the voters of Devon were to suddenly express their displeasure at being taken for granted and threatened to vote Labour...

 

9 hours ago, Not Jeremy said:

Now I know that is unlikely, but the point holds that he has provided a good focus on a concept that is not dead in the water or impossible, and moreover is somewhat in the politicians focus.

 

Because:

 

1. They still face the issue of long term rail resilience into Cornwall.

 

Maybe.

 

But the LSWR route doesn't solve the long term rail issues in Devon.

 

9 hours ago, Not Jeremy said:

1. They have spent a lot of taxpayers cash on reopening the major part of the route to Okehampton and are bound to be seeing how it goes.

 

And it is going well.

 

As already noted, ridership in a holiday season on a new line doesn't tell the story.

 

Ridership in February or November after the newness wears off will tell the story.

 

I expect ridership will be sufficient for it to be declared a success, but it will remain low enough that it won't in any way come close to helping the cause of restoring the LSWR route.

 

9 hours ago, Not Jeremy said:

As enthusiasts we have a tendency to drill down into detail, which is absolutely fair enough, but in the real world ideas (good or bad) are rarely pushed forwards on the back of sweating the details.

 

Actually, in most cases the enthusiasts don't drill down into the details - they are quite happy to wave away any and all parts of reality that explain why their favourite route was closed and isn't viable to be reopened.

 

Ignoring reality can get a politicians attention, and get you a (or multiple) consultants reports.

 

But at the end of the day those working for the Treasury will be looking at those details - particularly that key detail about not what the capital cost to restore service is but what the ongoing cost year after year to subsidize a money losing service will be.

 

9 hours ago, Not Jeremy said:

It is the idea that is the thing, which is what I think he has put forward intelligently and cleverly.

 

Clever, yes - using 10 year outdated costs to make it look cheap and obvious.

 

9 hours ago, Not Jeremy said:

Time will tell, and in the meantime we have Okehampton back on the network, which some people said would never happen.

 

It happened because people got lucky that a PM appeared who wanted to throw money around, and it generally is a good idea.  But there are already indication that the "party" is tired of his throwing money around.

 

Opening up Plymouth - Tavistock is probably also a good idea, even if significantly more expensive.

 

Connecting Okehampton - Tavistock makes zero sense, particularly if as many expect the government will need to spend £££'s building a Dawlish bypass at some point in the future (and to repeat, the northern route doesn't work because it abandons where the population actually is in Devon).

[Not Jeremy]

10 hours ago, mdvle said:

If you are a Whitehall mandarin with £300m+ to throw about, you won't be throwing it at North Devon.

 

Because it gains you nothing......

 

 

Connecting Okehampton - Tavistock makes zero sense, particularly if as many expect the government will need to spend £££'s building a Dawlish bypass at some point in the future (and to repeat, the northern route doesn't work because it abandons where the population actually is in Devon).

 

 

You clearly think it's a rotten idea.

 

Fair enough.

 

But you have completely missed the point of what he has done.

 

As a community we are seen as tending towards the binary and obsessive,  your post I think exemplifies that unfortunate characteristic.

 

It is an idea - ideas are the things which make the World go around.

 

Obsessing over "facts" will achieve absolutely nothing.

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, figworthy said:

 

But don't overlook "Not Invented Here" and "Not proposed by overpaid consultants"

 

Adrian

Doesn't quite work like that.  Once you get the consultants in it might be a step forward but it is a very expensive step and that means a degree of commitment to something is being expressed by the placing of money where the mouth (of the politicos) was.  A lot of it however is smoke and mirrors because the commitment to spend money on consultants doesn't mean that anything is going to be delivered whatever those consultants say - even iif it is favourable.

 

One of the jobs I mentioned in my earlier post saw me  - as a consultant (and I was only on £250 a day so I was not highly paid by the standards of the 'industry') - reviewing some of the work of a previous consultant who in turn had been reworking the work of the consultant before them.  And my work was then reviewed by someone from NR  (who, alas, very obviously hadn't got the first idea about what was involved).  So three consultants had - in summary - said it would work as far as a train service was concerned, several other consultants had said it would work as far as market attractiveness was concerned, and at least two lots of consultants had come up with how much it would cost to implement.  But notwithstanding all that the decision was 100% down to the politicos which in turn relied to some extent on what their electorate would think about the way money was spent.

 

The other one I looked at as a consultant again involved consultants looking at various facets of what had been proposed by someone who is to a considerable extent a very devoted to his reopening cause 'one man band'.  He had garnered local political support and tourist organisation support and that funded the consultants' work.  All the consultants reports were positive and reasonably favourable although the market attractiveness wasn't as good as it could be - but the proposal would be perfectly workable.  But despite good vibes frm the various consultants the politicos who held teh purse strings needed to fund such a reopening didn't bite - a few nice noises but no money; yet again it was a political decision.

 

As I said before in respect of possible reopening to Tavistock a lot will be decided not just by teh size of the national purse but the Parliamentary constituencies likely to benefit from it.  And like it or not there remains a considerable difference in political attitudes to railway re=openings between the three countries in Great Britain, however many consultants get involved (and however attractive websites might be).

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Not Jeremy said:

 

 

You clearly think it's a rotten idea.

 

Fair enough.

 

But you have completely missed the point of what he has done.

 

As a community we are seen as tending towards the binary and obsessive,  your post I think exemplifies that unfortunate characteristic.

 

It is an idea - ideas are the things which make the World go around.

 

Obsessing over "facts" will achieve absolutely nothing.

The only problem is that, in terms doing some practical examinations of and how it could be done, the idea of reopening Bere Alston - Tavistock has been around for 30 years.  During that time we've had three different political parties in national govt, ideas about solving road congestion have come and gone, there have been some favourable consultants' reports (although not looking at all aspects of the proposal),  and the availability of money for rail re-openings (or studying such proposals) has come - and is probably beginning to slip away?.

 

So while I absolutely agree that ideas are (one of) the things that make the world go round there is nothing new here apart from a glossy looking website - the idea isn't new.  The fact that the idea isn't new doesn't make it a bad idea but in some places it will no doubt come up against 'not that one again' because it has been around for so long.  And in the end it will all come down to The Treasury allowing the politicos to find and spend the money - and even to get to Tavistock it will be a lot of money.

 

So far - judging by press reports - there's £71,000 (including £50,000 from central govt) 'towards developing the business case'.  You'll have to multiply that govt grant figure by something between a factor of 5 and 10 (or more) in order to get to the likely cost of the various consultants' reports needed to establish the technical feasibility of reopening, various engineering options (especially in respect of signalling), and estimate of the cost of getting the route re-established.  

 

For a example - and it might sound silly - somebody will have to fairly accurately estimate the number of trees that will have to be felled or severely cut back.  My tree surgeon also does work for NR and he charges me about £100 - 120 per tree; I don't know what he charges NR.  But if the number of trees isn't reasonably accurately known before going to a tree surgeon for a quote then a part of the cost will remain no more than a guess.  This, possibly silly, example is why a proposal like this has to come down to detail before it can really get anywhere because the cost of that detail is the first big stumbling block.

[Oldddudders]

Railway history records that good things can come from external consultancies. For example, about 40 years ago the GLC commissioned a report into the feasibility and commercial prospects of re-opening between Blackfriars and Farringdon. I think it cost £100k. And the newly-hatched London & South East Sector of BR picked up the report and ran with it, arguably leading to today's vibrant and highly successful network called London Overground. 

 

But that was in a city of millions. Rural Devon has a lot less potential. Tavistock and Okehampton - I visit both most years - are fine places, but have limited population and tourist attractions, particularly for those arriving by train.

 

Then there's Meldon Viaduct. I do not see a cheap solution to making that carry C21 trains. The WR CCE didn't think much of it 60 years ago!

 

I'd love to see this succeed, but expect to be gone long before anyone manages to make the case stick. 

[Mallard60022]

16 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Railway history records that good things can come from external consultancies. For example, about 40 years ago the GLC commissioned a report into the feasibility and commercial prospects of re-opening between Blackfriars and Farringdon. I think it cost £100k. And the newly-hatched London & South East Sector of BR picked up the report and ran with it, arguably leading to today's vibrant and highly successful network called London Overground. 

 

But that was in a city of millions. Rural Devon has a lot less potential. Tavistock and Okehampton - I visit both most years - are fine places, but have limited population and tourist attractions, particularly for those arriving by train.

 

Then there's Meldon Viaduct. I do not see a cheap solution to making that carry C21 trains. The WR CCE didn't think much of it 60 years ago!

 

I'd love to see this succeed, but expect to be gone long before anyone manages to make the case stick. 

Excellent.

Poor old Devon's Railway, other than the main routes, were doomed from  the late 60s, probably earlier.

I am an avid rail use supporter, however, apart from maybe new Stations and improved services around the two major Cities, new lines are probably about as possible a happening as the the return of The Messiah and before you start kicking me, I am also a moderate Christian.  

Also, Levelling Up, or whatever crap soundbite they want to use, had little to do with Okey. That was more NR and the TOC + Exeter's influence.  The majority of rural Devon residents, apart from some sensible commuters and enthusiasts, have little interest in Trains or Public Transport in general. Such is the situation in almost the whole of rural UK.

Tell me I am wrong.

Phil (Janner in exile). 

[Mallard60022]

3 hours ago, Not Jeremy said:

 

 

You clearly think it's a rotten idea.

 

Fair enough.

 

But you have completely missed the point of what he has done.

 

As a community we are seen as tending towards the binary and obsessive,  your post I think exemplifies that unfortunate characteristic.

 

It is an idea - ideas are the things which make the World go around.

 

Obsessing over "facts" will achieve absolutely nothing.

Sorry mate, you have totally misunderstood  the Post to which you are referring. ASlso, 'he' has done nowt for Devon, and that is more than just Railways.

[brianusa]

8 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

the the return of The Messiah

Perhaps thats the solution - He has been known to perform miracles!

Brian.

[rab]

10 hours ago, brianusa said:

Perhaps thats the solution - He has been known to perform miracles!

Brian.

His coming is a bit like trains; no one knows when he's going to arrive

[Rivercider]

While I am not realistically expecting the railway to re-open between Bere Alston and Tavistock in the next five years I do feel optimistic that Tavistock will one day re-join the railway network. I do agree that it will be important to study the traffic figures for the Dartmoor Line to Okehampton over the next three years. (I also hope that when the Portishead Branch eventually re-opens that it will be a resounding success and will increase the likelihood of other future re-openings.)

 

Since the low point of railway cuts and closures in Devon in the 1960s there has been a slow but steady recovery of re-openings.

New or re-opened stations opened at:-

Feniton (1971)

Lympstone Commando (1976)

Pinhoe (1983)

Ivybridge (1994) - missed this one earlier.

Digby & Sowton (1995) has been used by over 600,000 passengers annually in recent years.

 

The Devon Metro is part of the Local Transport Plan for Devon published in 2011.

 

Here is a map of the proposed routes.

http://committees.exeter.gov.uk/documents/s37205/Transport Initiatives and Issues Update Appx 1 Final.pdf

 

Since 2011 there has been steady progress with more new stations and route improvements.

 

Exeter - Salisbury/Waterloo - already an hourly service during the day.

Barnstaple Branch  - now hourly service during the day.

Exmouth to Paignton - now half hourly service during the day.

Dartmoor Line - Two hourly service during the day.

(Exeter to Honiton / Axminster half hourly service remains an aspiration)

 

Stations now open or proposed at:-

Newcourt (2015)

Cranbrook (2015)

Marsh Barton (under construction)

Edginswell (funding agreed)

Cullompton (money for feasibility study agreed) 

 

When travelling on trains in Devon there is certainly a different atmosphere that what I remember from the 1970s,

Exeter Central in particular now has a busy vibrancy that was not there before,

 

cheers 

 

 

 

Edited January 15, 2022 by Rivercider
Additional info

[Captain Kernow]

On 10/01/2022 at 11:36, The Stationmaster said:

the idea of reopening Bere Alston - Tavistock has been around for 30 years

I spent no small amount of my career time in the South West working with the various parties involved, trying to make this a workable reality (ie. Devon CC. DfT, TOC, various consultants etc.).

 

One reason for the cost hike as compared with the early days of the project was a massive increase in 'project contingency' costs from Network Rail, who had (at the time) recently had their fingers burnt with the project costs for the Western electrification. That wasn't a decision by NR taken to prevent the Tavistock project happening (although it did make them the party pooper at the time), but would have been based on a more general ruling, not to get one's fingers burned again, with the Tavistock scheme being one of the schemes affected. The costs for Marsh Barton station were similarly hiked (although at least that is now happening, being a much lower cost project to begin with - new station verses new railway).

 

I tried at the time to work out a low cost Method of Working for Tavistock, which would have involved train-crew operated ground frame at Bere Alston and creative application of the existing Rules & Regulations (though whether they would ultimately have been authorised, I don't know, but other colleagues at the time agreed that this approach was appropriate, given the need to keep costs down).

 

I also think that Bere Alston to Tavistock will eventually reopen, although not just yet. If nothing else, central government will probably take the view that the South West has already had a fair slice of the pie recently, in the form of Okehampton.

 

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

 

I tried at the time to work out a low cost Method of Working for Tavistock, which would have involved train-crew operated ground frame at Bere Alston and creative application of the existing Rules & Regulations (though whether they would ultimately have been authorised, I don't know, but other colleagues at the time agreed that this approach was appropriate, given the need to keep costs down).

 

That was basically what was proposed in the c.1992 plan drawn up by Scheme Development in the S&T Dept at Reading and it could readily be made workable by adopting the procedures used at NSKT(R) crossing stations plus a little touch of permissive working.  

 

But it leaves something of problem, in fact several potential problems regarding the shape of the train service as a consequence of the various sectional running times with existing line speeds.  A biggest problem - which immediately torpedoes the ideal level of service from Tavistock - is the mismatch between running time from Bere Alston to Gunnislake (which takes 20 minutes for 4.5 miles in one direction, and 18 minutes in the other direction) compared with an ideal of  running time of around 7 - 8 minutes in each direction between Bere Alston and Tavistock which is what should be looked for in a new railway.  Thus if two trains coupled arrive together at Bere Alston and split one takes about 41 minutes to get to Gunnislake and back while the other takes a tad less than half that to get to Tavistock and back - and then waits 20 minutes for the train from Gunnislake to arrive (or leaves Tavistock 20 minutes later of course).

 

St Budeaux to Bere Alston. takes 13 minutes (12 minutes in the opposite direction) and that is just short of the place where two trains can pass which means a second train can't get onto the line until 35 minutes after a train has left Gunnislake.  Effectively a Gunnislake train occupies the line for about  73 minutes from the time it comes off Weston Mill Viaduct  until it gets back on the double line while a Tavistock train should occupy the line for about 47 minutes.  If you are going to mix the two services, with or without splitting at Bere Alston, the timetable will have to be built around that 73 minute figure which means that you can't have an hourly service to Tavistock unless something is done to increase capacity between St Budeaux and Bere Alston.  And you could basically forget a local service if the route were eventually needed for diversions unless doubling took place throughout between St Budeaux and Tavistock.

[Northmoor]

37 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

If you are going to mix the two services, with or without splitting at Bere Alston, the timetable will have to be built around that 73 minute figure which means that you can't have an hourly service to Tavistock unless something is done to increase capacity between St Budeaux and Bere Alston.  And you could basically forget a local service if the route were eventually needed for diversions unless doubling took place throughout between St Budeaux and Tavistock.

I'd always assumed that in the case of diversions over a reopened Dartmoor route - whether for routine maintenance or extreme weather on the GWR route - the local service would be suspended anyway.  You wouldn't worry about imposing the disruption for passengers of rail replacement buses for a few dozen locals if it meant minimising delays for 500 people on each Class 800 between Exeter and Plymouth.

 

The two biggest problems with the LSWR route or any other new route solution to the "Dawlish problem" are that no government will ever build a new railway just in case it's really needed for one week every decade (at worst) and the false assumption of many of its promoters, that the Dawlish route would be retained for local traffic.  That makes absolutely no sense; why would you want two sets of infrastructure to maintain when you've diverted all the highest value traffic off the expensive one?  Any diversion of the GWR route will (and should) lead to closure of the line through Dawlish and Teignmouth.

[Captain Kernow]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

That was basically what was proposed in the c.1992 plan drawn up by Scheme Development in the S&T Dept at Reading and it could readily be made workable by adopting the procedures used at NSKT(R) crossing stations plus a little touch of permissive working.  

 

But it leaves something of problem, in fact several potential problems regarding the shape of the train service as a consequence of the various sectional running times with existing line speeds.

We came to the same conclusion, Mike and the low-cost answer was to separate the units at Bere Alston off the first train of the morning from Plymouth and effectively lock the Gunnislake one in all day, using a re-instated bay platform (the main Tavistock line was to have been slewed to the old Up Main formation) and re-attach the units for the last train of the day back to Plymouth.

 

That would have admittedly given rise to some awkward connectional issues at Bere Alston and would have required creative use of the Rules & Regulations with regards to the shunting movements.

 

Such arrangements would have had to have been replaced by something more substantial (signalling infrstructure-wise) at the earliest opportunity, probably allowing the Gunnislake service to operate as a separate entity. But that would have all been very expensive.

 

[Not Jeremy]

 

Quote

Any diversion of the GWR route will (and should) lead to closure of the line through Dawlish and Teignmouth.

 

Oh really - just why is that?

 

A false premise I feel and your "just in case it's really needed for one week every decade (at worst)" is disingenuous to say the least.

 

Sure, you think the idea is stupid, I'm a complete f*ck wit, the bloke with the new website is some sort of London based nutter, but a reopened through LSWR route would be more useful than for just "one week every decade", even by the most pessimistic of estimates.

 

As for rebuilding the route, well yes I agree it looks to be unlikely - but it is not an impossibility.

 

Bringing the idea to people's attention as the new website has done can surely only improve any prospects of such a thing happening.

 

I do not understand why some here appear to be so compelled to rubbish the idea.

 

That does NOT mean that I think it will happen.

 

Personally I'm chuffed to bits that we have trains back to Okehampton - have you been on the new service yet?

 

If you haven't yet then I urge you to try it out, it is wonderful thing on so many levels.

 

Simon

Edited January 11, 2022 by Not Jeremy
cack to back

[Northmoor]

22 minutes ago, Not Jeremy said:

 

 

Oh really - just why is that?

 

A false premise I feel and your "just in case it's really needed for one week every decade (at worst)" is disingenuous to say the least.

 

Sure, you think the idea is stupid, I'm a complete f*ck wit, the bloke with the new website is some sort of London based nutter, but a reopened through LSWR route would be more useful than for just "one week every decade", even by the most pessimistic of estimates.

 

As for rebuilding the route, well yes I agree it looks to be unlikely - but it is not an impossibility.

 

Bringing the idea to people's attention as the new website has done can surely only improve any prospects of such a thing happening.

 

I do not understand why some here appear to be so compelled to rubbish the idea.

 

That does NOT mean that I think it will happen.

 

Personally I'm chuffed to bits that we have trains back to Okehampton - have you been on the new service yet?

 

If you haven't yet then I urge you to try it out, it is wonderful thing on so many levels.

 

Simon

Wow, talk about taking two and two and making seventy-five......!  Neither I or anyone else has suggested what you've said.  It's just that this new website doesn't add anything to the discussion that has gone on for a generation, just repeats out-of-date information in a new form.  It really isn't a new idea at all.

 

I have never said that Okehampton-Tavistock should NOT be rebuilt, only that on a list of potential UK re-openings in order of priority, it would be about 80th.  Tavistock-Bere Alston would be about 20th.  The missing link is only useful (except for diversions) for the potential traffic from Okehampton to Plymouth & Cornwall or from Tavistock to Exeter and Eastwards, which are journeys that cannot realistically be done by rail, if at all, at present.  Neither are exactly major traffic flows or ever likely to become so.

[Mallard60022]

1 hour ago, Not Jeremy said:

 

 

Oh really - just why is that?

 

A false premise I feel and your "just in case it's really needed for one week every decade (at worst)" is disingenuous to say the least.

 

Sure, you think the idea is stupid, I'm a complete f*ck wit, the bloke with the new website is some sort of London based nutter, but a reopened through LSWR route would be more useful than for just "one week every decade", even by the most pessimistic of estimates.

 

As for rebuilding the route, well yes I agree it looks to be unlikely - but it is not an impossibility.

 

Bringing the idea to people's attention as the new website has done can surely only improve any prospects of such a thing happening.

 

I do not understand why some here appear to be so compelled to rubbish the idea.

 

That does NOT mean that I think it will happen.

 

Personally I'm chuffed to bits that we have trains back to Okehampton - have you been on the new service yet?

 

If you haven't yet then I urge you to try it out, it is wonderful thing on so many levels.

 

Simon

[Zomboid]

12 hours ago, Northmoor said:

Okehampton to Plymouth & Cornwall

Looks like the current journey time for Okehampton to Plymouth is about 1h45, so not fast. But certainly possible. I guess it won't take much traffic off the roads.

 

That said, with Okehampton having a population of under 6000 (5922 in 2011), most of whom won't be going to Plymouth on any given day, there's probably not going to be enough traffic to justify a new railway. There's going to have to be a colossal amount of house building in the area to justify a new local railway, which is unlikely to be poplar with the existing locals.

 

I think I have a decent chance of living to see Tavistock reconnected to Plymouth, but I doubt from there to Okehampton will be a journey I'll be able to make (For context, I'm 40...).

[phil-b259]

13 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

We came to the same conclusion, Mike and the low-cost answer was to separate the units at Bere Alston off the first train of the morning from Plymouth and effectively lock the Gunnislake one in all day, using a re-instated bay platform (the main Tavistock line was to have been slewed to the old Up Main formation) and re-attach the units for the last train of the day back to Plymouth.

 

That would have admittedly given rise to some awkward connectional issues at Bere Alston and would have required creative use of the Rules & Regulations with regards to the shunting movements.

 

Such arrangements would have had to have been replaced by something more substantial (signalling infrstructure-wise) at the earliest opportunity, probably allowing the Gunnislake service to operate as a separate entity. But that would have all been very expensive.

 

 

In other words something similar to how the Bourne end / Marlow branch was worked.

 

In peak hours you had one train locked onto the Marlow - Bourne End branch using one platform at Bourne End while the Maidenhead - Bourne End section was worked by a second train (that extended to / from Paddington and was therefore long to be able to reverse at Bourne End) which used the other platform at Bourne End and connected with the Marlow shuttle.

 

IIRC that setup was done with a ground frame and single line tokens - no signals or fancy signalling necessary and it should be possible to replicate it in Devon (even if the ground frame takes the form of switches and powered points).

[Mallard60022]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

Looks like the current journey time for Okehampton to Plymouth is about 1h45, so not fast. But certainly possible. I guess it won't take much traffic off the roads.

 

That said, with Okehampton having a population of under 6000 (5922 in 2011), most of whom won't be going to Plymouth on any given day, there's probably not going to be enough traffic to justify a new railway. There's going to have to be a colossal amount of house building in the area to justify a new local railway, which is unlikely to be poplar with the existing locals.

 

I think I have a decent chance of living to see Tavistock reconnected to Plymouth, but I doubt from there to Okehampton will be a journey I'll be able to make (For context, I'm 40...).

That sums it up really. Even back in the early 60s the actual passenger traffic, even in summer between Oke and Tavistock, was small. Passenger numbers between Plymuff and Tavy were OK as was the passenger loadings Exeter to  Oke and then continuing west into the Withered Arm. Through expresses to from Plymuff on the SR route expired circa 1958 and the only really loaded ones on the SR route were the direct Portsmouths Brightons). 

However lovely the SR route was, and I travelled it quite a few times, it was a longer distance Cinderella compared to the WR Exeter Plymuff route, number of trains/loadings.

However much I loved Spams, the best way for me to get to see Packets and other Spams as well as Arthurs and S15s, was to go up the WR and walk/dash or change trains to Central. Even the Western National Bus or Royal Blue Coach was quicker than the SR route, but very borning and had no bog.

Sorry and all that but that is how it was and Zomboid has it almost 100%

Philth

Edited January 12, 2022 by Mallard60022

[Mallard60022]

On 09/01/2022 at 23:00, mdvle said:

 

Not really.

 

 

And website, Facebook groups, etc. are all easy to set up to try and push thousands of different local priorities and dreams.

 

 

If you are a Whitehall mandarin with £300m+ to throw about, you won't be throwing it at North Devon.

 

Because it gains you nothing.

 

Because Devon essentially reliably votes Conservative once you get outside Exeter and Plymouth.

 

Now, if the voters of Devon were to suddenly express their displeasure at being taken for granted and threatened to vote Labour...

 

 

Maybe.

 

But the LSWR route doesn't solve the long term rail issues in Devon.

 

 

As already noted, ridership in a holiday season on a new line doesn't tell the story.

 

Ridership in February or November after the newness wears off will tell the story.

 

I expect ridership will be sufficient for it to be declared a success, but it will remain low enough that it won't in any way come close to helping the cause of restoring the LSWR route.

 

 

Actually, in most cases the enthusiasts don't drill down into the details - they are quite happy to wave away any and all parts of reality that explain why their favourite route was closed and isn't viable to be reopened.

 

Ignoring reality can get a politicians attention, and get you a (or multiple) consultants reports.

 

But at the end of the day those working for the Treasury will be looking at those details - particularly that key detail about not what the capital cost to restore service is but what the ongoing cost year after year to subsidize a money losing service will be.

 

 

Clever, yes - using 10 year outdated costs to make it look cheap and obvious.

 

 

It happened because people got lucky that a PM appeared who wanted to throw money around, and it generally is a good idea.  But there are already indication that the "party" is tired of his throwing money around.

 

Opening up Plymouth - Tavistock is probably also a good idea, even if significantly more expensive.

 

Connecting Okehampton - Tavistock makes zero sense, particularly if as many expect the government will need to spend £££'s building a Dawlish bypass at some point in the future (and to repeat, the northern route doesn't work because it abandons where the population actually is in Devon).

Class comments.

[Gwiwer]

Thoughts .....

 

There are significant operational issues however one looks at this.  

 

Using a single unit locked onto the Gunny shuttle is wasteful in the extreme.  It would be idle for more than half the day on the current level of service.  Is there enough potential for an hourly shuttle?  That still includes a measure of idle time given the branch requires 20 minutes running time each way but a 10-minute turnback is not unreasonable and allows for service recovery in the event of a being held for a late-running connection.  Connections at Bere Alston would need to be reliable if branch traffic is not to be lost; it is already less than ideal to enforce a change of trains.  

 

Running the current alternate-hours service to Gunny alternately with a Tavistock service may not work given the likely running times.  It could be done but not at an even hourly spacing in one or both directions.  Which is more important?  

 

If Tavistock is to offer a credible alternative to private cars or buses the train service must be at least hourly.  Okehampton is a much smaller town and began with a single-train alternate-hours service but this is to become hourly.  More infrastructure is required to offer an hourly (or better) Tavistock service which will require at least one crossing loop and ideally a dynamic one of some length to avoid at least one train coming to a stand for a time.  Bere Alston is a potential location.  Tamerton Foliot might also be a candidate.  Both would be ideal but the cost may be prohibitive.  As well how many more trains can be pathed across St. Budeaux Junction given the more frequent service now operating into Cornwall?  

 

I don't control the purse-strings but it seems to me that the least-worst scenario might be to retain the Gunny service "as is" and superimpose an hourly Tavistock service which runs fast Plymouth (or Devonport if traffic justifies) to Bere Alston.  Intermediate traffic would be sparse at best in my opinion so Tavy trains skipping Bere Ferrers through to Dockyard (except possibly for a peak-time train or two) would inconvenience very few potential users.  

 

If there is any chance of the missing link around the moor ever being reinstated (for which I am not holding my breath) then work to reinstate Tavistock should allow at least passively for this to occur in terms of a future double-tracking and signalling provision.  

[Mallard60022]

11 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

Thoughts .....

 

There are significant operational issues however one looks at this.  

 

Using a single unit locked onto the Gunny shuttle is wasteful in the extreme.  It would be idle for more than half the day on the current level of service.  Is there enough potential for an hourly shuttle?  That still includes a measure of idle time given the branch requires 20 minutes running time each way but a 10-minute turnback is not unreasonable and allows for service recovery in the event of a being held for a late-running connection.  Connections at Bere Alston would need to be reliable if branch traffic is not to be lost; it is already less than ideal to enforce a change of trains.  

 

Running the current alternate-hours service to Gunny alternately with a Tavistock service may not work given the likely running times.  It could be done but not at an even hourly spacing in one or both directions.  Which is more important?  

 

If Tavistock is to offer a credible alternative to private cars or buses the train service must be at least hourly.  Okehampton is a much smaller town and began with a single-train alternate-hours service but this is to become hourly.  More infrastructure is required to offer an hourly (or better) Tavistock service which will require at least one crossing loop and ideally a dynamic one of some length to avoid at least one train coming to a stand for a time.  Bere Alston is a potential location.  Tamerton Foliot might also be a candidate.  Both would be ideal but the cost may be prohibitive.  As well how many more trains can be pathed across St. Budeaux Junction given the more frequent service now operating into Cornwall?  

 

I don't control the purse-strings but it seems to me that the least-worst scenario might be to retain the Gunny service "as is" and superimpose an hourly Tavistock service which runs fast Plymouth (or Devonport if traffic justifies) to Bere Alston.  Intermediate traffic would be sparse at best in my opinion so Tavy trains skipping Bere Ferrers through to Dockyard (except possibly for a peak-time train or two) would inconvenience very few potential users.  

 

If there is any chance of the missing link around the moor ever being reinstated (for which I am not holding my breath) then work to reinstate Tavistock should allow at least passively for this to occur in terms of a future double-tracking and signalling provision.  

I know it sounds a little weird, but maybe one of those guided Bus routes could replace the  Gunnislake stretch and then the Railway TOC/NR combine with the Bus Ops to connect at Bere Alston. Change of use on the Viaduct would not be an issue would it weight wise? Operating a Bus shuttle in peak work Times, with a couple at other times for shopper service to Plymuff/Tavy, might be an option that didn't require engineering on the 'main' line? Just a thought. You can get quite lot of people on a Bus and you don't require railway regs or Crew (sorry about that but Train Crew are very specialised people). Bus Crews are, of course, highly trained but it isn't quite the same...or is it?

P 

[rodent279]

5 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

I know it sounds a little weird, but maybe one of those guided Bus routes could replace the  Gunnislake stretch and then the Railway TOC/NR combine with the Bus Ops to connect at Bere Alston. Change of use on the Viaduct would not be an issue would it weight wise? Operating a Bus shuttle in peak work Times, with a couple at other times for shopper service to Plymuff/Tavy, might be an option that didn't require engineering on the 'main' line? Just a thought. You can get quite lot of people on a Bus and you don't require railway regs or Crew (sorry about that but Train Crew are very specialised people). Bus Crews are, of course, highly trained but it isn't quite the same...or is it?

P 

My thoughts are along similar lines-drop the Gunnislake branch & replace it with a connecting bus tied into the revised Tavistock rail timetable. Anathema to many, a bitter pill to swallow for those rail patrons at Calstock & Gunnislake, but maybe it's worth looking at.

I know bus replacements in the 60's didn't work, but maybe there are reasons for that.