Okehampton Railway re-opening

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, Zomboid said:

Only if you're trying to run two different services. PLY - TAV - GUN - TAV - PLY would slow down Gunnislake & Calstock to Plymouth journeys (hence trying to get some of it back by improving speeds on the main line if that's realistic), but would give those places a direct link to Tavistock and eliminate the timetabling issue caused by the different journey times. It would probably need a passing loop somewhere to achieve an hourly service though. 2 hourly might work without.

Or if trains to/from Gunnislake split from/attach to trains to/from Tavistock at Bere Alston.   What would be lost is both almost all through trains to/from Gunnislake (which probably wouldn't be a major problem) and connections either to, or from, Gunnislake at Bere Alstion if an intention is to run an hourly interval service to/from  Tavistock (which could well have an adverse impact on passenger usage on the Gunnislake branch.

 

As long as there is a considerable disparity in running time on the two routes beyond Bere Alston that situation is unavoidable.   And the project would, I repeat, stand a far worse case of happening if costs are increased beyond the most basic way of implementing reopening to Tavistock.  Several millions on a crossing loop plus the associated cost (albeit only slightly more sophisticated) of signalling installation such as using NSKT(R) will shove the project price much higher.

[caradoc]

Given that the LSWR route was originally double track, one solution to the capacity issue could be reinstating the second line from a suitable location at the Plymouth end, not as a double track railway but as independent single lines to Bere Alston, which would require just one additional turnout over the existing layout. However the costs of bringing the formation back to a suitable condition, including over two viaducts, an additional platform (but perhaps not essential) at Bere Ferrers, and of course the new track and signalling, would no doubt be prohibitive.  

[rab]

3 hours ago, caradoc said:

Given that the LSWR route was originally double track, one solution to the capacity issue could be reinstating the second line from a suitable location at the Plymouth end, not as a double track railway but as independent single lines to Bere Alston, which would require just one additional turnout over the existing layout. However the costs of bringing the formation back to a suitable condition, including over two viaducts, an additional platform (but perhaps not essential) at Bere Ferrers, and of course the new track and signalling, would no doubt be prohibitive.  

Shouldn't that read 'even more prohibitive '.

[rab]

Local paper getting excited again:

 

https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/plymouth-news/plymouth-tavistock-railway-link-moving-6486855?

 

[JohnR]

1 hour ago, rab said:

Local paper getting excited again:

 

https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/plymouth-news/plymouth-tavistock-railway-link-moving-6486855?

 

 

I think what that demonstrates is very strong support for the project at both Devon County and West Devon district council level. There are few schemes in the country that have that level of political and officer support. 

 

I am fairly confident that we will see the go-ahead for reopening to Tavistock (in some form) within the next 5 years. More so than at any time in the last 30 years when I first started in the campaign for reopening! Whether that missing link is then opened is more debatable - although again, it is closer than it has ever been before! I wonder if attention would, after Tavistock, go to reopening to Bideford rather than Oke-Tav. 

 

Devon has shown it can deliver on rail reopenings, both of stations and lines. I get the impression that the Government has been impressed by the Okehampton reopening, and there is now a more receptive view in Whitehall, or at least more confidence that DCC can be trusted. I doubt it will lead to an open season across the country! 

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, rab said:

Local paper getting excited again:

 

https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/plymouth-news/plymouth-tavistock-railway-link-moving-6486855?

 

I like the £50,000 'towards the next stage of works' which is reality only money to part fund the business case study.  The money comes from only the first stage (the 'Ideas Fund')  of the Govt's 'Restoring Your Railway' Fund' and even then it was in the third round of potential schemes receiving any money from that fund, i.e. a year after the first round funds had been released. 

 

Ebbw Vale took 10 years from feasibility study to opening to passenger traffic and it was strongly supported by the Welsh Govt including being a manifesto promise at the 1999 Welsh Assembly plus the Welsh govt promused £7million over 2 years towards the scheme.   Another factor which was important in the decision to proceed with the scheme was teh closure of Ebbw Vale steelworks  and part of the funding came from a regeneration fund to tackle the effects of the steel works closure.  so overall a rather different case from Tavistock and one with real money coming from other than Whitehall.

 

Assuming  the Tavistock business case study comes back with a positive results  then the next stage would be securing funding from the 'Restoring Your Railway' Advanced Proposals Fund - which put £40 million into the cost of the Okehampton reopening. (which let us not forget still needs money for the Okehampoton Parkway station).

 

The Restoring Your Railway fund was originally announced as containing £500 million and of that just over £106 million has thus far definitely been committed to/spent on approved schemes plus 38 proposals have received funding from the Ideas Fund (31 of which are listed ahead of Tavistock and 18 of of the total received funding in the first two lots of fund allocation).  If all were funded up to the permitted maximum of £50,000 another £1.9 million of the find will have been spent which means that a total of £108 million has been spent out of the originally allocated total of £500 million.

 

With so many schemes seeking finding - some of them admittedly standing considerably less chance than Tavistock - it should be noted that almost half of the total number of Ideas Fund(ed) schemes are in the 'Red Band' area in the north.  When it comes down to spending the rest of the fund I think it is likely that political imperative will play as big a part as the relative quality of business cases.  Tavistock is in the Torrdge & West Devon constituency where the current incumbent has a substantial majority which has increased in every election since he won the seat in 2005 - but things can change very quickly in politics so maybe Tavistock could strike lucky and get a share of the fund for reasons that don't have much to do with transport?

[Northmoor]

Interesting points in your final paragraph Mike; I'm reminded of how the coalition government implemented the Bonfire of the Quangos and cancelled a number of major contracts.  Labour cried foul that so many of the cancellations were with companies in Labour constituencies; I remember thinking that if I was them, I wouldn't be drawing attention to just how many contracts had been placed in Labour constituencies!

[Rivercider]

32 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

Interesting points in your final paragraph Mike; I'm reminded of how the coalition government implemented the Bonfire of the Quangos and cancelled a number of major contracts.  Labour cried foul that so many of the cancellations were with companies in Labour constituencies; I remember thinking that if I was them, I wouldn't be drawing attention to just how many contracts had been placed in Labour constituencies!

I think in the case of the Tavistock re-instatement, back in 2014 the council agreed for Bovis to build 750 homes, provided they paid £13.2m towards the cost of re-instatement of the line. Though I suppose in these days of massively inflated prices to get anything built on the railway that does not add up to much,

 

cheers

[Mike_Walker]

And, as one of 83D's finest likes to point out on another forum, governments seem to be loathe to invest in railways west of the Up Main LOS signal at Taunton.  Okehampton was the notable exception !  

[Kris]

5 hours ago, JohnR said:

I wonder if attention would, after Tavistock, go to reopening to Bideford rather than Oke-Tav. 

 

Reopening Bideford would be a better option than Oke-Tav. It would bring a population of 20,000+ back to the rail network.

[Not Jeremy]

2 minutes ago, Kris said:

 

Reopening Bideford would be a better option than Oke-Tav. It would bring a population of 20,000+ back to the rail network.

 

I do like the cut of your jib, that would open up one hell of a Dawlish diversionary route!

 

A few creative new junctions would offer a fair multiplicity of routes, highly scenic but rather slow

[Gwiwer]

There's probably a better case to reopen Bideford than Tavistock - Okehampton.  Even if doing so would require reinstating a second platform at Barnstaple.  If Instow were included you could claim almost all of the population in that part of Devon as being within reasonable distance of a station; Westward Ho! and Torrington are not too far to be disregarded.  

 

Where can you say that about the northern fringe of Dartmoor?  Lydford is the only place of any size and that's tiny.  If North Tawton can't be reopened then neither can Bridestowe or Brentor both of which were sleepy at best and saw very few passengers when open.  

 

[Chris116]

34 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

  If North Tawton can't be reopened then neither can Bridestowe or Brentor both of which were sleepy at best and saw very few passengers when open.  

 

North Tawton also has the problem that someone removed the footbridge! Have to say it looks very nice at Ropley on the Mid Hants. Being more serious, the footbridge would not be needed as the line through North Tawton is single track but the old platforms are below the current track level so a new platform will definitely be needed.

[Zomboid]

North Tawton has the advantage of a railway with a regular passenger service running through the site. Doesn't look to be a big enough place to justify a service right now, but a platform, bus shelter and ticket machine is a lot cheaper than several miles of new railway.

Edited January 14, 2022 by Zomboid

[Siberian Snooper]

The station at Lydford is not convenient for the village being around a mile from it, but quite near one of the entrances for the Gorge, so may encourage a few grockles to use it.

[Rivercider]

12 hours ago, Kris said:

 

Reopening Bideford would be a better option than Oke-Tav. It would bring a population of 20,000+ back to the rail network.

The area is already well served by buses, service 21 runs every 15 minutes between Barnstaple and Bideford via the station, Fremington and Instow. There are also some additional hourly 'fast' services between those towns via the A39. The Tarka Trail which uses the track bed here is very well used particularly in summer.

Although I am pro-rail, and would like to see more services re-instated, I don't think this is likely to be one of them,

 

cheers

[Zomboid]

The point of reopening Bideford would be for travel beyond Barnstaple though. And for incoming travel from beyond Barnstaple.

 

Not that I expect it to happen any time soon, but I think it'll happen after Bere Alston to Tavistock, but before Okehampton to Tavistock. Has anyone even applied for one is those restoring your railway grants for the Bideford line?

[Rivercider]

11 hours ago, Zomboid said:

The point of reopening Bideford would be for travel beyond Barnstaple though. And for incoming travel from beyond Barnstaple.

 

Not that I expect it to happen any time soon, but I think it'll happen after Bere Alston to Tavistock, but before Okehampton to Tavistock. Has anyone even applied for one is those restoring your railway grants for the Bideford line?

In recent years I have made quite a few day trips to North Devon, by train to Barnstaple then 21 bus service to Braunton/Ilfracombe/Appledore/Westward Ho! The bus stop is right outside Barnstaple station, the service runs every 15 minutes.

 

For rail improvements in the South West generally if the money were available I would look at the following:  

 

Make the Okehampton service a success, it needs to be hourly (as proposed), and as many services as possible extend through to Exeter Central.

Then later on extend the service through to Axminster, additional infrastructure is required though.

 

Get the Portishead branch open. I would suggest if that is successful it should strengthen the case for Tavistock as I see them as similar situations.

 

Re-open Bere Alston to Tavistock.

 

Speed up the Barnstaple Line service (better signalling arrangements at Eggesford).

 

Re-open Cullompton and Wellington stations, and perhaps also Langport and Somerton.

 

Improve the Newquay branch service, both more trains and higher speeds.

 

There, that will do for now!

 

cheers

 

Edited January 15, 2022 by Rivercider

[Kris]

12 minutes ago, Rivercider said:

Re-open Cullompton and Wellington stations,

 

This is seriously being looked at. 

[Oldddudders]

1 minute ago, Kris said:

This is seriously being looked at. 

Good - but will GWR IETs or XC want to call? And will pathing headways become difficult between Cogload and Exeter? If so, and resignalling is needed, the costs will bog it all down. 

[Mike_Walker]

The problem with re-opening the likes of Langport and Somerton is providing a service.  Do you provide a dedicated local service which will be extremely costly in terms of staff and equipment for little return or do you insert additional stops into existing class 1 services?   There are already calls from Devon and Cornwall to speed up their existing London services so the latter would not be popular.

 

Wellington and Cullompton could be covered by additional stops on existing class 2 services but these are relatively few and far between so their service levels would be poor and therefore unlikely to be particularly attractive.

 

[DCB]

5 minutes ago, Kris said:

This is seriously being looked at. 

Then only stop 2 trains a day there because it slows the service so much.

Lets get Bere Alston Okehampton open so freight can can get from Cornwall 50 weeks a year instead of weather permitting as at present

[Kris]

6 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Good - but will GWR IETs or XC want to call? And will pathing headways become difficult between Cogload and Exeter? If so, and resignalling is needed, the costs will bog it all down. 

No idea about what would call there. I don't imagine that XC would however. The report I saw was here. 

https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/cullompton-railway-station-reopening-takes-6126865

[Kris]

3 minutes ago, DCB said:

Then only stop 2 trains a day there because it slows the service so much.

Lets get Bere Alston Okehampton open so freight can can get from Cornwall 50 weeks a year instead of weather permitting as at present

What freight? The freight services down here are all but non existent. This has nothing to do with the weather, more a lack of customers. 

[Gwiwer]

14 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

The problem with re-opening the likes of Langport and Somerton is providing a service.  Do you provide a dedicated local service which will be extremely costly in terms of staff and equipment for little return or do you insert additional stops into existing class 1 services?   There are already calls from Devon and Cornwall to speed up their existing London services so the latter would not be popular.

 

Wellington and Cullompton could be covered by additional stops on existing class 2 services but these are relatively few and far between so their service levels would be poor and therefore unlikely to be particularly attractive.

 

As I see it and without reference to working documents which would give a better indication of the overall effect upon the service:-

 

Wellington is highly desirable as a medium-sized town with significant recent growth.  Traffic potential both ways locally to Exeter and Taunton and regionally towards London and the Midlands.  Mostly served by the existing Bristol - Penzance stoppers but with a few IET calls for a direct London service which could be the Exeter / Plymouth semi-fasts.

 

Cullompton is desirable as a growing town in its own right and with a catchment area including Willand and Uffculme with traffic largely local towards Exeter.  Could be served by some of the Bristol - Penzance services but probably no direct London service.

 

Somerton is a hoped-for by a few in the area being a town at some distance from any regional centre and with less-than-frequent bus links in any direction.  Rail traffic probably confined largely to local trips to Taunton but as many trips are made by road to Wells and Yeovil which cannot be converted to rail.  If reopened then a limited local service which could be an extension of the GWR Swindon / Westbury - Frome locals to Taunton.  

 

Langport is much smaller than Somerton being home to barely 1000 souls and making a case to reopen a station there might be a hard ask.  It suffers from infrequent bus links to Taunton but I doubt sufficient traffic could be generated to support a rail reopening.  Some might look hard at the success (or otherwise) of Ivybridge as a reopened station for comparison.  

 

In terms of accelerating the Paddington - Penzance service this has already been partially dealt with through the excision of stops east of Exeter and transferring those to semi-fast trains.  There was once a 4h 30m timing for an HST which was perfectly achievable granted it ran fast from London to Plymouth without the need for a crew-change at Exeter as seems to be mandatory these days.  Under 5-hour timings have been few and far between other than for the morning Up "Golden Hind" which has usually managed in the region of 4h 55m with HSTs and is currently advertised at 4h 50m for an IET.  There must be slack in the system or the IETs are really not up to the job if the daytime service can manage nothing better than around 5½ hours.  There should be no need for IETs to call at the tiny stations in East Cornwall given that there is a regular local service now; those stops can cost five minutes each for perhaps a single passenger.  GWR has moved towards a standard calling pattern of Paddington - Reading - Taunton - Exeter but still the network seems unable to cope with HST headline times of Exeter in 2 hours, Plymouth in 3 and Penzance in an even 5 hours from London serving all major stations.  This despite extraordinarily costly partial electrification of the route and the introduction of trains which are designed to run (on electric power) at faster than the 125mph line speeds currently in force.  

 

It seems GWR still stands for "Go When Ready" in some respects.