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Okehampton Railway re-opening


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2 hours ago, Kris said:

What freight? The freight services down here are all but non existent. This has nothing to do with the weather, more a lack of customers. 

 

One of the reasons given for a lack of railfreight to the SW, despite the distances favouring rail, is the lack of reliability. Having an alternative route would make it more attractive.

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3 hours ago, Zomboid said:

The point of reopening Bideford would be for travel beyond Barnstaple though. And for incoming travel from beyond Barnstaple.

 

Not that I expect it to happen any time soon, but I think it'll happen after Bere Alston to Tavistock, but before Okehampton to Tavistock. Has anyone even applied for one is those restoring your railway grants for the Bideford line?

Simple answer is 'no'.  there have been two (unsuccessful) bids to the Ideas Fund for a Braunton - Barnstaple 'mainline station' (sic) in Rounds 1 & 3.  But nothing for the Bideford route (which would no doubt not be so popular among the walkers and cyclists apart from the problem getting under a great big roundabout at Barnstaple).

http://www.taw-link.org.uk

 

Plymouth - Tavistock was bid unsuccessfully in Round 1 but has been successful in Round 3 of the Ideas Fund bids.

 

Langport & Somerton ( a new station in the middle of nowhere proposal) was successful in the Round 3 bids but as others have already noted one can't help but wonder how on earth it would be served if a station was provided.  Langport is about 30 minutes drive from Castle Cary station on a reasonably direct road - provided you don't get stuck behind a tractor and trailer etc - and Somerton is of course closer to Cary.  Coupled with what amounts to a complete lack of  suitable train services to cater for an intermediate station and potential abstraction from revenue at castle Cary  I can't see that the idea is going to get very far.

https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/plans-new-railway-station-somerset-5459733

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2 hours ago, Rivercider said:

In recent years I have made quite a few day trips to North Devon, by train to Barnstale then 21 bus service to Braunton/Ilfracombe/Appledore/Westward Ho! The bus stop is right outside Barnstaple station, the service runs every 15 minutes

I obviously realise that it's possible, but a change of train is a pretty good way to put off a lot of people, and a change of mode without integrated ticketing will be vastly more effective.

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19 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

One of the reasons given for a lack of railfreight to the SW, despite the distances favouring rail, is the lack of reliability. Having an alternative route would make it more attractive.

That comment totally ignores reality.  One simple question - exactly what freight traffic is there coming out of - or going into - that area that would be suitable for rail and would the railway be price competitive?  Don't forget why Speedlink to Cornwall ended (uneconomic) and subsequently then its Tiger Rail successor went the same way.  You could also reasonably ask how the railway would handle it in view of the almost total lack of potentially suitable rail connected locations to deal with freight traffic.

 

The only way new freight flows are likely to develop is if traffic is forced off the roads by 'green initiatives', increased road haulage costs, and a decline in road haulage reliability - which of course might well happen, possibly.

 

but just how 'reliable' would a link round the north of the Moor actually be for freight diversions?  Largely singe track, limited maximum speed , and as somebody has already mentioned - if it has to be used for passenger train diversions even the local services to the likes of Gunnislake, Okehampton, and Tavistock might well be suspended.  You can bet your bottom dollar that if local passenger services are going to be suspended if the Dawlish route is closed freight trains will stand even less chance of running.

 

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2 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

As I see it and without reference to working documents which would give a better indication of the overall effect upon the service:-

 

Cullompton is desirable as a growing town in its own right and with a catchment area including Willand and Uffculme with traffic largely local towards Exeter.  Could be served by some of the Bristol - Penzance services but probably no direct London service.

 

 

Cullompton has 4 buses an hour (off peak) to Exeter. It is literally located at a junction on the M5 as well. Yet there is still a very good case for the station to reopen. 

 

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2 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

As I see it and without reference to working documents which would give a better indication of the overall effect upon the service:-

 

Wellington is highly desirable as a medium-sized town with significant recent growth.  Traffic potential both ways locally to Exeter and Taunton and regionally towards London and the Midlands.  Mostly served by the existing Bristol - Penzance stoppers but with a few IET calls for a direct London service which could be the Exeter / Plymouth semi-fasts.

 

Cullompton is desirable as a growing town in its own right and with a catchment area including Willand and Uffculme with traffic largely local towards Exeter.  Could be served by some of the Bristol - Penzance services but probably no direct London service.

 

Somerton is a hoped-for by a few in the area being a town at some distance from any regional centre and with less-than-frequent bus links in any direction.  Rail traffic probably confined largely to local trips to Taunton but as many trips are made by road to Wells and Yeovil which cannot be converted to rail.  If reopened then a limited local service which could be an extension of the GWR Swindon / Westbury - Frome locals to Taunton.  

 

Langport is much smaller than Somerton being home to barely 1000 souls and making a case to reopen a station there might be a hard ask.  It suffers from infrequent bus links to Taunton but I doubt sufficient traffic could be generated to support a rail reopening.  Some might look hard at the success (or otherwise) of Ivybridge as a reopened station for comparison.  

 

In terms of accelerating the Paddington - Penzance service this has already been partially dealt with through the excision of stops east of Exeter and transferring those to semi-fast trains.  There was once a 4h 30m timing for an HST which was perfectly achievable granted it ran fast from London to Plymouth without the need for a crew-change at Exeter as seems to be mandatory these days.  Under 5-hour timings have been few and far between other than for the morning Up "Golden Hind" which has usually managed in the region of 4h 55m with HSTs and is currently advertised at 4h 50m for an IET.  There must be slack in the system or the IETs are really not up to the job if the daytime service can manage nothing better than around 5½ hours.  There should be no need for IETs to call at the tiny stations in East Cornwall given that there is a regular local service now; those stops can cost five minutes each for perhaps a single passenger.  GWR has moved towards a standard calling pattern of Paddington - Reading - Taunton - Exeter but still the network seems unable to cope with HST headline times of Exeter in 2 hours, Plymouth in 3 and Penzance in an even 5 hours from London serving all major stations.  This despite extraordinarily costly partial electrification of the route and the introduction of trains which are designed to run (on electric power) at faster than the 125mph line speeds currently in force.  

 

It seems GWR still stands for "Go When Ready" in some respects.  

It's an interesting point about having faster services from the far West, by sacrificing stops.  It tends to be a self-interested view of people who live a long distance from their occasional "important destination" (i.e. London), who want to get there fast by not stopping for anyone else.  If the train operator can sacrifice 5 minutes and potentially pick up 150+ people by stopping at Exeter, they're going to do so.

 

The explanation of the four potential main line stations, populations and likely journeys is useful, but I'll argue there is an additional factor that not all passengers are equal.  Consider if Bristol Parkway were being built today; it will attract several thousand passengers per day, of which a high proportion are London commuters paying perhaps £90 each.  The four Devon stations will obviously attract considerably fewer passengers, but if the vast majority are local commuters to Taunton or Exeter etc., the typical fare paid might be less than £10.  Even a basic station is going to need a lot of low-yield passengers to pay for it.

 

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4 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

The four Devon stations will obviously attract considerably fewer passengers, but if the vast majority are local commuters to Taunton or Exeter etc., the typical fare paid might be less than £10.  Even a basic station is going to need a lot of low-yield passengers to pay for it.

Which is why through services to key cities would amplify the potential market nicely, but as you say be a journey-time demerit for existing flows to/from further destinations. GWR and XC will not be keen. 

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28 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

That comment totally ignores reality.  One simple question - exactly what freight traffic is there coming out of - or going into - that area that would be suitable for rail and would the railway be price competitive?  Don't forget why Speedlink to Cornwall ended (uneconomic) and subsequently then its Tiger Rail successor went the same way.  You could also reasonably ask how the railway would handle it in view of the almost total lack of potentially suitable rail connected locations to deal with freight traffic.

 

 

 

Ask yourself why there are not container trains to Plymouth, yet to Aberdeen. And citing a lack of freight loading points is disingenuous - same argument could have been used against transfer of Highland Spring water to rail! 

 

Anyway, its not me saying that about rail freight, its people like the Plymouth and Devon Chamber of Commerce, The Cornwall and Isles of Scilly Local Enterprise Partnership, Devon and Cornwall County Councils, Peninsula Rail Group etc. Plus the work that's been done on this by consultants like Greengauge 21. 

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26 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

Ask yourself why there are not container trains to Plymouth, yet to Aberdeen. And citing a lack of freight loading points is disingenuous - same argument could have been used against transfer of Highland Spring water to rail! 

 

Anyway, its not me saying that about rail freight, its people like the Plymouth and Devon Chamber of Commerce, The Cornwall and Isles of Scilly Local Enterprise Partnership, Devon and Cornwall County Councils, Peninsula Rail Group etc. Plus the work that's been done on this by consultants like Greengauge 21. 

I think the fact that Felixstowe - the largest container port - is not much over 300 miles from Plymouth and Aberdeen is about 550 would be a lot to do with it.  From the Channel Tunnel it's about 300 vs. 600 miles.  Distance is everything in the economics of rail freight, unless the tonnage is very high; container trains are quite lightweight w.r.t their length.

 

I don't disagree that more freight to Devon and Cornwall would be desirable but rebuilding the LSWR route - which would require freight trains to reverse twice (how's that going to help it be time-competitive?) - would contribute next to nothing to achieving that.  It is like a number of "popular" rail re-openings, focussed on re-opening a Victorian railway because it's there and not where a transport link of the 21st Century needs to be.  When it comes to infrastructure building, there is often surprisingly little difference in cost between rebuilding a formation disused for half a century and building a completely new route between the same two points.

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4 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Good - but will GWR IETs or XC want to call? And will pathing headways become difficult between Cogload and Exeter? If so, and resignalling is needed, the costs will bog it all down. 

Back in the Wessex trains era there was for part of the day a two hourly Cardiff/Bristol to Paignton/Plymouth semi-fast service operated by class 158s. Now there are the Castle Class HSTs working a similar service which would form the basis of a service for Cullompton and Wellington, with little need to involve XC or Paddington services to begin with.

 

Edit - and there are already a couple of GWR services from Paddington to Exeter St Davids and return that are semi-fast calling at Pewsey Westbury and Castle Cary which are services that could call additionally at Somerton and/or Langport if they were re-opened.   

 

cheers 

Edited by Rivercider
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3 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

I think the fact that Felixstowe - the largest container port - is not much over 300 miles from Plymouth and Aberdeen is about 550 would be a lot to do with it.  From the Channel Tunnel it's about 300 vs. 600 miles.  Distance is everything in the economics of rail freight, unless the tonnage is very high; container trains are quite lightweight w.r.t their length.

 

I don't disagree that more freight to Devon and Cornwall would be desirable but rebuilding the LSWR route - which would require freight trains to reverse twice (how's that going to help it be time-competitive?) - would contribute next to nothing to achieving that.  It is like a number of "popular" rail re-openings, focussed on re-opening a Victorian railway because it's there and not where a transport link of the 21st Century needs to be.  When it comes to infrastructure building, there is often surprisingly little difference in cost between rebuilding a formation disused for half a century and building a completely new route between the same two points.

 

The Aberdeen flow is from Grangemouth, and Mossend. Thats about 200 miles. Not dissimilar to Birmingham-Plymouth or London-Plymouth. 

 

As I said, the Chambers of Commerce and the Local Enterprise Partnerships represent locoal businesses who would like to use rail, but wont, partly because of the reliability. 

 

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9 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

The Aberdeen flow is from Grangemouth, and Mossend. Thats about 200 miles. Not dissimilar to Birmingham-Plymouth or London-Plymouth. 

 

As I said, the Chambers of Commerce and the Local Enterprise Partnerships represent locoal businesses who would like to use rail, but wont, partly because of the reliability. 

 

 

Network Rail has spent and is continuing to spend a large amount of money on the Dawlish and Teignmouth section of the line to deal with issues long ignored.

 

The result is that the line is reliable today from a freight perspective - the diesel locos used on freight aren't likely to be anywhere near as fragile as the Voyagers and 80x units.

 

So if they aren't using rail, it isn't due to the sea wall section of the line - that merely is a convenient excuse to divert attention from any real reasons they remain on using road transport.

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7 minutes ago, JohnR said:

The Aberdeen flow is from Grangemouth, and Mossend. Thats about 200 miles.

But where have the containers come from before they got to Mossend? I don't know, but I imagine they've arrived from Felixstowe, Southampton and wherever else such ships come from.

 

And that's possibly the issue. There might be enough traffic into Plymouth to justify a train, but if the containers are from Felixstowe, Southampton, the Channel Tunnel and wherever else, where would the train be assembled? And would having to do all that skew the economics so that it ceases to work?

 

It would be great if there were a service to that corner of the country, but rail freight isn't subsidized, so it would have to make the operator a profit.

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4 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

The problem with re-opening the likes of Langport and Somerton is providing a service.  Do you provide a dedicated local service which will be extremely costly in terms of staff and equipment for little return or do you insert additional stops into existing class 1 services?   There are already calls from Devon and Cornwall to speed up their existing London services so the latter would not be popular.

 

Wellington and Cullompton could be covered by additional stops on existing class 2 services but these are relatively few and far between so their service levels would be poor and therefore unlikely to be particularly attractive.

 

For Langport/Somerton there are already a couple of semi-fast GWR services from Paddington to Exeter St Davids and return in the timetable, which could form the basis of a service. I thought at one time GWR intended more of these additional 'short' services to Exeter?

Yes, for Wellington and Cullompton there would need to be more services. Back in the 1960s the Beeching cuts more or less entirely wiped out the local main line service west of Taunton. But from the Wessex trains era onwards there has been an increase of Cardiff/Bristol to Paignton/Plymouth services during the day, some of them now worked by Castle Class HSTs.   

 

cheers

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

But where have the containers come from before they got to Mossend? I don't know, but I imagine they've arrived from Felixstowe, Southampton and wherever else such ships come from.

 

And that's possibly the issue. There might be enough traffic into Plymouth to justify a train, but if the containers are from Felixstowe, Southampton, the Channel Tunnel and wherever else, where would the train be assembled? And would having to do all that skew the economics so that it ceases to work?

 

It would be great if there were a service to that corner of the country, but rail freight isn't subsidized, so it would have to make the operator a profit.

 

The point is, those containers were previously taken by HGV from Mossend. The demand is certainly there.

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6 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

 

So if they aren't using rail, it isn't due to the sea wall section of the line - that merely is a convenient excuse to divert attention from any real reasons they remain on using road transport.

 

Just going by what the customers are saying. It's probably psychological, rather than based on reality - but its a fact. 

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12 minutes ago, Rivercider said:

For Langport/Somerton there are already a couple of semi-fast GWR services from Paddington to Exeter St Davids and return in the timetable, which could form the basis of a service. I thought at one time GWR intended more of these additional 'short' services to Exeter?

Yes, for Wellington and Cullompton there would need to be more services. Back in the 1960s the Beeching cuts more or less entirely wiped out the local main line service west of Taunton. But from the Wessex trains era onwards there has been an increase of Cardiff/Bristol to Paignton/Plymouth services during the day, some of them now worked by Castle Class HSTs.   

 

cheers

 

 

But would just a handful of daily services prove attractive to the local population?  Remember, it would probably cost a seven-figure sum to build even the simplest of stations, £1 million gets you very little on today's railway.

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28 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

Just going by what the customers are saying. It's probably psychological, rather than based on reality - but its a fact. 

 

Look, generally speaking successful businesses don't make business decisions based on psychological reasons.

 

If they are stating that as a reason, then what they are really saying is road works for us and go away with your trying to force rail on us.

 

Aberdeen working for containers simply means there is something other than just distance that is shifting the economic calculations to favour rail over road - and that shouldn't a surprise given the other stories over the years of food retail using rail up in Scotland that they don't do in England or Wales.

 

And an obvious negative to freight on rail in Devon and Cornwall is that road network built to handle the summer Saturday holiday traffic - which conveniently works rather well for lorries the other 350 or so days of the year.

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23 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

But would just a handful of daily services prove attractive to the local population

If they're timed right they might. Islip between Oxford and Bicester doesn't have a hugely frequent service, but the local community had some input into which trains called, and what the purpose of each one would be, rather than an arbitrary frequency. So there are trains for commuters in either direction, and trains at the end of the day for evenings out in London/ Oxford, and so on.

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40 minutes ago, mdvle said:

road network built to handle the summer Saturday holiday traffic - which conveniently works rather well for lorries the other 350 or so days of the year.

A road network which features climbs every bit as demanding as those on the railway through south Devon.  From Exeter up to the top of Haldon Hill for example will slow every vehicle short of a high-performance car.  The long but gently-graded drag up to Okehampton on the A30 is followed by the Sourton "gable' and while most HGVs cope with the climb it does slow them somewhat.  However the odds are still stacked in their favour with a road speed limit of 60mph most of the way (70mph for cars and light vans) against a railway which retains its contour-hugging and tortuous 50mph or thereabouts route.  With two big climbs each way between Exeter and Plymouth which will slow any thing resembling a heavy freight (just as they still slow passenger trains) road does have the edge here whether we like it or not.  

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2 hours ago, JohnR said:

 

Cullompton has 4 buses an hour (off peak) to Exeter. It is literally located at a junction on the M5 as well. Yet there is still a very good case for the station to reopen. 

 

It has long been established that a rail service is regarded by the public as superior to a bus service no matter how infrequent either might be.  The bus industry continues to struggle with its image of being perceived (incorrectly in my view) as the option of last resort and for those who don't have to pay.  First in Cornwall, and now once more in Devon, has refocussed its business on tourism and "Adventures by bus" though how successful that turns out to be is yet to be determined.  Open a station, stop some trains and people will use them no matter that there is a four-times hourly alternative (though probably rather slower) literally stopping outside on the road.  

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2 hours ago, mdvle said:

Aberdeen working for containers simply means there is something other than just distance that is shifting the economic calculations to favour rail over road - and that shouldn't a surprise given the other stories over the years of food retail using rail up in Scotland that they don't do in England or Wales.

 

And an obvious negative to freight on rail in Devon and Cornwall is that road network built to handle the summer Saturday holiday traffic - which conveniently works rather well for lorries the other 350 or so days of the year.

 

The road network to Aberdeen is much less congested, and much easier to drive HGVs (in terms of hills etc) than anything in Devon and Cornwall!

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9 hours ago, JohnR said:

 

The Aberdeen flow is from Grangemouth, and Mossend. Thats about 200 miles. Not dissimilar to Birmingham-Plymouth or London-Plymouth. 

 

As I said, the Chambers of Commerce and the Local Enterprise Partnerships represent locoal businesses who would like to use rail, but wont, partly because of the reliability. 

 

But what is there to put on rail?  All well and good people saying they would want to use it but for what?  Nobody is going to divert anything from road to rail haulage if it costs more unless they are forced to do so.   Most manufacturing businesses in the Plymouth area are involved in light engineering or small high value items - none of which are suited to rail transportt as they are unlikely to produce regular full container loads for a single destination.

 

Agricultural produce from the south west long ago ceased to be a viable option for rail transport - the amount of double handling involved made it uneconomic so it went over to road transport.  The only other likely traffic is distribution stuff moving in the opposite direction which would again involve extra handling even if it was only the transhipping of containers but that is currently only really viable over very long distances.

 

and don't forget that teh southwest is served by a generally fairly good quality road network - motorway as far as Exeter then dual carriageway to Plymouth and over the Tamar amd much of the A30 is dual carriageway and an very good road for much of it which isn't dual - so both are pretty good for trunk routes.

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16 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Coupled with what amounts to a complete lack of  suitable train services to cater for an intermediate station and potential abstraction from revenue at castle Cary  I can't see that the idea is going to get very far.

https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/plans-new-railway-station-somerset-5459733

 

Indeed. Such an issue is supposedly* weighing heavily on the minds of the DfT as regards a station under construction in east London which won't get any trains!

 

https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/confusion-over-future-of-beam-park-station-in-east-london-50831/

 

* I think there is more than a whiff of party politics being played out though....

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