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Okehampton Railway re-opening


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8 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

But what is there to put on rail?  

Following all the gnashing of teeth and beating of breasts that went on post-Brexit early last year, it is surprising to note that Brixham landed a record £43m of fish in 2021. https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/brixham-defies-brexit-covid-storm-6446059

 

Sherry recently gave a me a DVD entitled 'Last Train to Brixham', which I have yet to watch.

 

Timing is everything!

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1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

On that basis we would probably never have built any railways.

Jonathan

 

As is the case in some nations which went straight from the horse & cart to HGVs!

 

Railways are intrinsically less flexible and more expensive than a road based transport solution. Once motor vehicles and paved roads came the advantage rail had disappeared (outside of a few niche setups). Thats why NO passenger railway in the world turns a profit (outside of some urban metros) and requires significant government subsidy and rail freight has largely retreated to hauling bulk goods / very long hauls / container haulage to / from ports.

 

The ONLY reason railways took off to the extent they did in the UK (and then the rest of Europe etc was the alternatives were poor (i.e. canals or Horse & cart). Places which remained relatively undeveloped (i.e. did not undergo rapid industrialisation until the 1960s) went straight over to car / lorry based transport and built motorways not railways.

 

 

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Thank you Ian for a very cheering bit of news on a bright and cold morning.

 

Improved the taste of my tea no end!

 

Thinking of the weather and future West Country delights in general, here is a rather lovely image captured on film by the late Peter Barnfield.

 

A typically "blistering" day on the 18th August 1962 and the passengers  from a Helston service walk up the platform at Gwinear Road to await a main line service heading up country.

 

611374583_GwinearRdstation.jpg.3917c3988dfe2204f4415baee4aa2af0.jpg

 

However we get there in the future it is a place worth going to.

 

Simon

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45 minutes ago, Not Jeremy said:

However we get there in the future it is a place worth going to.

Gwinear Road is hardly a place worth going to ;)  

 

It was never close to nor even on a direct road to Gwinear which is a tiny settlement comprising just one row of cottages and a pub.  The station was far closer to Carnhell Green and Horsepool, also acting as a station for nearby Reawla and Connor Downs to some extent.  And of course as the junction for the Helston branch.  

 

It was so important that when closed it was thought unnecessary to provide replacement buses although all villages except Gwinear had and retain to this day regular buses between Camborne and either Hayle or Helston.  

 

That's the first picture I have seen, in all my years, of the station in all its glory.  Thank you. 

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Well quite!

 

I have coincidentally just been on the phone to Ginny Barnfield, who is well, and she is happy for me to share Peter's pictures here.

 

So here are two shots of the aforementioned place, the whole frame of the previous shot and "Ashley Grange" on a down freight that went through while everyone waited for the train out of Gwinear Road(!)

 

907411782_GwinearRdstation(1).jpg.63f33c115d95d1bb6f16f7ffc433cee1.jpg2044217239_GwinearRdGrange.jpg.940926c3a5435e26cff9cd0984680e74.jpg

 

Oh dear, this is all frightfully "Great Western"...

 

I should have said, these and many more pictures all appear in the Wild Swan book "Memories of West Country Railway Journeys 1960-1962" available here

 

Simon

Edited by Not Jeremy
Plug for Peter's book added
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Cropped screen grab ..... you can clearly see the effect on the road of having a level crossing on a sharp and canted railway curve.  It's at least that bad today and catches out unwary motorists - and occasionally causes grounding of semitrailers which require access to the adjacent farms.  Its a hefty "bump" if you take it at normal speed and it's not readily apparent how bad the bumps are until you are almost upon them.  

 

 

Screenshot 2022-01-16 at 13.08.48.png

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20 hours ago, Rivercider said:

For Langport/Somerton there are already a couple of semi-fast GWR services from Paddington to Exeter St Davids and return in the timetable, which could form the basis of a service. I thought at one time GWR intended more of these additional 'short' services to Exeter?

Yes, for Wellington and Cullompton there would need to be more services. Back in the 1960s the Beeching cuts more or less entirely wiped out the local main line service west of Taunton. But from the Wessex trains era onwards there has been an increase of Cardiff/Bristol to Paignton/Plymouth services during the day, some of them now worked by Castle Class HSTs.   

 

cheers

 

 

The idea of  a regular interval 'short' Paddington - Exeter semi-slow never seems to have got going again.  The earlier service was actually quite interesting as it stopped at Newbury and Theale (being remarkably busy at Theale as it happened because it was a through fast to Paddington but also carried some West of England traffic which saved folk going into Reading from the west side of the town and parts of South Oxfordshire.

 

Incidentally Langport (East) and Somerton were pre-Beeching closures and are listed in the first Beeching Report as 'already closed'

Somerton is only 10 miles from Castle Cary by a reasonable road while Cary is. c.20 miles from Westbury via relatively poor roads and the roads between Pewsey and Westbury are little more than country lanes in places.  The site currently being talked about for a new station is almost equidistant, by rail, between the former  Somerton and Langport (East) stations (see pic below) and can only be accessed from either place by country lanes or the half mile of fairly narrow road from the B3153 (second pic below).   While it would undoubtedly be more attractive to people from Langport than is Castle Cary would it attract people from Somerton who would continue to have a better train service from Cary with more destinations available?  This document makes interesting reading, note particularly the figures at the foot of page 12 -

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/New-parkway-stations-guidance.pdf

 

So will it really justify the spending of several millions?   Presumably the study, once underway will address these various issues?

 

1370299282_LongSuttonPitney(siteof).jpg.c0de79636b9a0f5ff4e5510c8d12e86d.jpg

 

1838430356_LSPaccess.jpg.11077ff8d8968e2dfade4f2cdc82db3b.jpg

 

 

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21 hours ago, Zomboid said:

But where have the containers come from before they got to Mossend? I don't know, but I imagine they've arrived from Felixstowe, Southampton and wherever else such ships come from.

 

And that's possibly the issue. There might be enough traffic into Plymouth to justify a train, but if the containers are from Felixstowe, Southampton, the Channel Tunnel and wherever else, where would the train be assembled? And would having to do all that skew the economics so that it ceases to work?

 

It would be great if there were a service to that corner of the country, but rail freight isn't subsidized, so it would have to make the operator a profit.

Grangemouth is Scotland's largest container port (although it only has two container cranes).  The Grangemouth - Aberdeen service operated by DRS (presumably it still runs?) is a 137 mile journey so a very short distance in container train terms.  But don't forget that Aberdeen is currently an important busy support location for North Sea etc oil and gas operations which will undoubtedly influence the type of goods and equipment moving into and out of the area.

 

As far as I can trace England's only West Country port with any sort of decent container handling capacity and regular container services is Bristol and I'd be amazed if traffic levels into the West of England from there would support a rail service handling containers.  The West of England's principal freight ports do not have container traffic. Plymouth is a very capable port for ro-ro operations, Teignmouth specialises in dry bulk cargoes but in smaller vessels, and Falmouth's trade and freight tonnage is very much geared to its overall role in shipping although there was an abortive proposal many years ago to create a deep berth container port there which would have required what amounted to an hourly service of container trains.  As far as I know the last railborne traffic to come out of Falmouth was fish intended for industrial processing loaded in airbrake open wagons - a long time ago. 

 

 

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53 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Grangemouth is Scotland's largest container port (although it only has two container cranes).  The Grangemouth - Aberdeen service operated by DRS (presumably it still runs?) is a 137 mile journey so a very short distance in container train terms.  But don't forget that Aberdeen is currently an important busy support location for North Sea etc oil and gas operations which will undoubtedly influence the type of goods and equipment moving into and out of the area.

 

As far as I can trace England's only West Country port with any sort of decent container handling capacity and regular container services is Bristol and I'd be amazed if traffic levels into the West of England from there would support a rail service handling containers.  The West of England's principal freight ports do not have container traffic. Plymouth is a very capable port for ro-ro operations, Teignmouth specialises in dry bulk cargoes but in smaller vessels, and Falmouth's trade and freight tonnage is very much geared to its overall role in shipping although there was an abortive proposal many years ago to create a deep berth container port there which would have required what amounted to an hourly service of container trains.  As far as I know the last railborne traffic to come out of Falmouth was fish intended for industrial processing loaded in airbrake open wagons - a long time ago. 

 

 

Demport Dockyard might be adaptable?

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4 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Following all the gnashing of teeth and beating of breasts that went on post-Brexit early last year, it is surprising to note that Brixham landed a record £43m of fish in 2021. https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/brixham-defies-brexit-covid-storm-6446059

 

Sherry recently gave a me a DVD entitled 'Last Train to Brixham', which I have yet to watch.

 

Timing is everything!

Bet them fish aint too 'appy then. They bees no use ere either buy, they be for Frans and up Finnlandia way if theys dunt rot in the sunlighted uplands.

Ar$£.

 

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12 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Demport Dockyard might be adaptable?

Which bit of it do you think the RN would be prepared to vacate?  Even if they did, the entrance to the harbour is rather more challenging than most container ports of the UK, it would be even more so for a reasonable size container ship (rather bigger than almost any RN vessel based at "Guzz").  Imagine if half the Royal Navy couldn't leave port because the entrance to the harbour was blocked.......... 

 

Serving Devonport Dockyard by rail wouldn't be easy as the rail link faces Cornwall, so would require a new set of loops to permit the reversal.  Even if "Frigate Alley" (Weston Mill) became a container port - probably the only practical location - the current layout would require a double reversal to reach the main line.

 

Nope, sorry, the only way we will see some freight in Cornwall would be for a major supermarket chain - in fact probably two or more of them combined - were to build a regional distribution centre and supermarket(s) in a location adjacent to the existing railway, not too far into Cornwall such that the goods need to be road-hauled back towards Devon for final delivery.  It is a problem with Cornwall's long and thin shape and well-distributed population; wherever you build a hub, it will still require road delivery to a significant area and as @The Stationmastersays, it is the  time and cost penalty of handling between modes that generally kills rail as a viable freight carrier.

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48 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

Which bit of it do you think the RN would be prepared to vacate?  Even if they did, the entrance to the harbour is rather more challenging than most container ports of the UK, it would be even more so for a reasonable size container ship (rather bigger than almost any RN vessel based at "Guzz").  Imagine if half the Royal Navy couldn't leave port because the entrance to the harbour was blocked.......... 

 

Serving Devonport Dockyard by rail wouldn't be easy as the rail link faces Cornwall, so would require a new set of loops to permit the reversal.  Even if "Frigate Alley" (Weston Mill) became a container port - probably the only practical location - the current layout would require a double reversal to reach the main line.

 

Nope, sorry, the only way we will see some freight in Cornwall would be for a major supermarket chain - in fact probably two or more of them combined - were to build a regional distribution centre and supermarket(s) in a location adjacent to the existing railway, not too far into Cornwall such that the goods need to be road-hauled back towards Devon for final delivery.  It is a problem with Cornwall's long and thin shape and well-distributed population; wherever you build a hub, it will still require road delivery to a significant area and as @The Stationmastersays, it is the  time and cost penalty of handling between modes that generally kills rail as a viable freight carrier.

I don't know pal, why don't you tell me? Lived or live in Plymouth have you? If so fine. If not then.........

Maybe they might just close Demport and move elsewhere...like Portsmouth or elsewhere as Warships become redundant as they are floating targets.  Who said anything about Cornwall? I'm talking about extra alternative places handling fast and moderate sized Container ships not the crap huge things that block the Suez canal. 

However, Southampton would be the better option and send the ####### Cruise ships elsewhere.

Are we not thinking 15 twenty years ahead and not next week?

P

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2 hours ago, Northmoor said:

Serving Devonport Dockyard by rail wouldn't be easy as the rail link faces Cornwall, so would require a new set of loops to permit the reversal. 

Take a bow that man! At last the justification for redoubling the LSWR route and re-opening throughout to Okehampton! Simple innit?

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2 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

Demport Dockyard might be adaptable?

But in order to take large container ships it would need a lot of dredging - not only alongside any potential berths in the Hamoaze but also out in the main channel in the Sound.  Add in the rather less than straight approach, especially round  round Devil's Point and Cremyll and it's no wonder the RN based the new aircraft carriers at Pompey instead of following their predecessors at Devonport.

 

Some of the container berths at Southampton offer some of the best depth of water at any port in England  (and they're also deeper than the floating block of flats berths) hence the place is a regular stop for large container ships with plenty of storage space and readily accessible railway sidings close at hand. 

 

The other  big requirement at any large container port is lots of space on which to stack containers and move them about to/from ships side working to storage/road vehicle/rail loading points.  That would mean filling in the basins at Devonport to create space and even that might not be enough judging by what can be seen at all the larger container ports.  

 

If it can't handle the big ships then that would mean it would only deal with coasters moving boxes in and out from/to the larger ports - and they would be for basically 'local' destinations so would go forward by road or would be broken down from t less than full container loads for local distribution (or collection to be combined into full container loads.  I think Plymouth could probably only be competitive in that market if it was cheaper to ship containers there by coastal vessel rather than snd them west from Southampton by road.   A small shipload every 2-3 days would probably be cheaper than a small trainload every day.

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3 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

Falmouth's trade and freight tonnage is very much geared to its overall role in shipping although there was an abortive proposal many years ago to create a deep berth container port there

 

 I refer my honourable colleagues to the reply given earlier, in the House of Commons, in 1971, by Mr. David Mudd (MP for Falmouth and Cambourne)

 

After some preamble...

 

Quote

 

I therefore summarise some of the many definite advantages of the Port of Falmouth for the development of such a containerisation facility. First, as a custom-built port utilising industrial waste land, the cost per virgin berth would be infinitely less than the cost of buying, demolishing, rebuilding and extending London, Southampton, Rotterdam or Hamburg. Therefore, in terms of money invested for a direct return, Falmouth is the best buy for port development.

 

Secondly, Falmouth is a deep-water port at all states of tide. It has no necessity for locks and the various other navigational hazards which create delays and potential dangers to deep-draught shipping. The deep water at Falmouth allows direct and prompt access for the arrival and departure of all ships, with the economic attraction of there being no delays to the vital speed of turn-around times and the added safety attraction of unrestricted room for manoeuvre.

 

Any Transatlantic ship using the Port of Falmouth rather than Rotterdam would knock 33½ days off the time for the return round trip to the United States, thus increasing ship availability by 3.936 round voyages every year, thereby attracting the maximum utilisation of ships and cargo space. Falmouth is the only undeveloped deep-water port in the United Kingdom which is able to accommodate deep-draught ships without! hindrance, interference or danger to other shipping.

 

The development of a container terminal at the Port of Falmouth would improve the financial revenue of the port and the port facilities to such an extent that soon it would be translated into improved and increased services to all the other forms of shipping that currently and traditionally use Falmouth, thus assisting the economy and the employment prospects of an area of high potential but, alas, so far, of very little development.

 

 

etc.

More....

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1971/aug/03/falmouth-container-terminal

 

Well, Peter de Savary did try to make a go of it, but he ended-up building Port Pendennis Marina instead.

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I note in his 1971 speech, so pre- Chunnel, that the MP quoted time savings to justify using Falmouth against Rotterdam.

 

Now, what exactly was supposed to happen to all those containers (or whatever it was in 1971) that wanted to get to Rotterdam but ended up on the dockside in Falmouth?

 

I suspect the shipping industry wasn't fooled by his statements/claims.

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14 hours ago, Not Jeremy said:

A typically "blistering" day on the 18th August 1962 and the passengers  from a Helston service walk up the platform at Gwinear Road to await a main line service heading up country.

 

Where are all the Dads?  Not one to be seen; Mums and kids on their own.  Different times!

     Brian.

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As someone who was (before retirement) very involved with Devonport Dockyard rail and development issues, I can advise that it is highly unlikely that there will be commercial shipping/rail freight operations at this location. As explained above, the internal rail system is totally unsuitable, and in any event is wholly devoted to other uses associated with submarine refit/decommissioning. The access from sea for a ship of any size is almost impossible, which is why the carriers are not base ported here. RN have maximised land use by moving many operations onto the site from elsewhere.

I summary…a non starter!

 

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18 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Grangemouth is Scotland's largest container port (although it only has two container cranes).  The Grangemouth - Aberdeen service operated by DRS (presumably it still runs?) is a 137 mile journey so a very short distance in container train terms.  But don't forget that Aberdeen is currently an important busy support location for North Sea etc oil and gas operations which will undoubtedly influence the type of goods and equipment moving into and out of the area.

 

 

The main traffic to/from Aberdeen is supermarket container traffic. So eminently replicable for the South West. And nothing to do with the North Sea - theres actually now little traffic thats connected to the oil industry, sadly.  

 

And when the line was closed at Stonehaven, the traffic went via Inverness (as it sometimes does). 

 

 

Edited by JohnR
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8 hours ago, brianusa said:

Where are all the Dads?  Not one to be seen; Mums and kids on their own.  Different times!

     Brian.

 

That's back in the days when Dads went out to work and the ladies were expected to remain at home, to do the washing and look after the offspring.  Dads expected to bring in the cash and not to be bothered with bringing up the kids.  Many, if not most, jobs were 6 day working and fewer days holiday, too, so Dads were seldom available for gallivanting to the coast, even if they wanted to.  Different time indeed.

 

Julian

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25 minutes ago, jcredfer said:

 

That's back in the days when Dads went out to work and the ladies were expected to remain at home, to do the washing and look after the offspring.  Dads expected to bring in the cash and not to be bothered with bringing up the kids.  Many, if not most, jobs were 6 day working and fewer days holiday, too, so Dads were seldom available for gallivanting to the coast, even if they wanted to.  Different time indeed.

 

Julian

Either that or the Dad's were the ones taking the photographs; what you can't see in the photo of the "Grange" is the four other Dads standing in a row next to him, taking the same shot.  You also can't hear the Mums shouting, "Oi Bert, will you stop lookin' at the trains and help me with the luggage and these kids".

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30 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

Either that or the Dad's were the ones taking the photographs; what you can't see in the photo of the "Grange" is the four other Dads standing in a row next to him, taking the same shot.  You also can't hear the Mums shouting, "Oi Bert, will you stop lookin' at the trains and help me with the luggage and these kids".

Bert was a busy man then.....!

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