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Okehampton Railway re-opening


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Just now, Oldddudders said:

In the days before cellphones and social media, being a 'busy man' was rather easier to get away with....

Would appear that he messed up on this occasion though, if all 4 of them were on the same train!

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9 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

In the days before cellphones and social media, being a 'busy man' was rather easier to get away with....

 

On line stock checks of stock at local DIY supplier, removed the "need" to spend several hours visiting them to find bits for whatever job "er indoors" had assigned for the day off. Such journeys could involve a check at local model shop(s) to see if they had the required item :). If enough time could be devoted to the search, time to do the actual job evaporated. 

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Interesting observations, looking at my copy of the image there do appear to be quite a "gaggle"of men in the background, but they could be railway staff.

 

Peter certainly liked to get people in his photographs, here is another favourite of mine, a July 1962 arrival of a Saturday through train at Burnham on Sea.

 

874090524_2204@Burnham.jpg.e3512f2e725b369f467ade4e16a63f59.jpg

 

Apparently the  train arrived quite full, an amazing scene when you think of how things are now.

 

And nothing to do with going back over the moor, although at least this isn't a GW line, but that loco....

 

Are we there yet?

 

Simon 

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18 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

 I refer my honourable colleagues to the reply given earlier, in the House of Commons, in 1971, by Mr. David Mudd (MP for Falmouth and Cambourne)

 

After some preamble...

 

 

etc.

More....

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1971/aug/03/falmouth-container-terminal

 

Well, Peter de Savary did try to make a go of it, but he ended-up building Port Pendennis Marina instead.

I didn't post that about Falmouth pal; I may have quoted it. (It was actually Mike Stationmaster if you read back..)

I know nowt about Falmouth as it is over that Bridge in Bandit Country. So can you explain what you are on about please?

P

Edited by Mallard60022
Found Mikes comment..not mine.
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3 hours ago, pb_devon said:

As someone who was (before retirement) very involved with Devonport Dockyard rail and development issues, I can advise that it is highly unlikely that there will be commercial shipping/rail freight operations at this location. As explained above, the internal rail system is totally unsuitable, and in any event is wholly devoted to other uses associated with submarine refit/decommissioning. The access from sea for a ship of any size is almost impossible, which is why the carriers are not base ported here. RN have maximised land use by moving many operations onto the site from elsewhere.

I summary…a non starter!

 

Thanks matey. That explains things for me as did Mikes, and both without the laughing emojis, so thanks for that too. I left Plymuff in 66 so based my thoughts on the Carriers and large ships that were in there then. I even Saw a Destroyer launched there. Things really have changed a lot then and I am grateful to be told what it's like now?

Phil

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On 15/01/2022 at 14:02, The Stationmaster said:

You can bet your bottom dollar that if local passenger services are going to be suspended if the Dawlish route is closed freight trains will stand even less chance of running.

 

I agree with everything you said in your post Stationmaster..... except this last bit ! One of the 'benefits' of privatisation was that the infrastructure operator had to treat all its customers fairly, so, for example, when as sometimes happened one line was blocked between Paisley and Kilwinning and we were able to keep a service going with the bi-directional signalling there, we ensured that the coal trains to and from Hunterston got paths amongst the already-reduced passenger service. This on the basis that they had paid as much (if not considerably more, being a 2000t freight as opposed to a 3-car EMU) for their path than any Scotrail train. Which, it could be said (assuming freight did return) weakens the  case for a single-track Okehampton/Plymouth route being a suitable passenger diversion for Dawlish even further.

 

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I've been following this thread as an observer and occasional contributor, with an interest in the area (Mrs R's parents live in that neck of the woods).

It strikes me that this is a case of one of those railways that perhaps shouldn't have shut, and if it hadn't, it would have survived (if you see what I mean). In other words, if it could have clung on another 5-10 years, it would still be here.

But, like some other high profile closed lines, the fact that it shouldn't have closed half a century ago doesn't automatically translate into a cast iron case for reopening now.

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There are several railways, both closed and open, which would fall into that category. For example, would there be much case to put the East Suffolk line (beyond the Felixstowe junction) back if it had gone? Doubtful. But it's still there so it's unlikely to go now.

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2 hours ago, Not Jeremy said:

Peter certainly liked to get people in his photographs, here is another favourite of mine, a July 1962 arrival of a Saturday through train at Burnham on Sea.

 

Apparently the  train arrived quite full, an amazing scene when you think of how things are now.

 

Regular passenger trains ceased on the Highbridge - Burnham on Sea section on 29th Oct 1951, although through excursion trains operated until 8th September 1962. (source "Somerset & Dorset Railway" Robin Atthill 1985).

 

Therefore may explain the passenger loading.

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16 hours ago, mdvle said:

I note in his 1971 speech, so pre- Chunnel, that the MP quoted time savings to justify using Falmouth against Rotterdam.

 

Now, what exactly was supposed to happen to all those containers (or whatever it was in 1971) that wanted to get to Rotterdam but ended up on the dockside in Falmouth?

 

I suspect the shipping industry wasn't fooled by his statements/claims.

I don't know what was intended for any countries outside GB but the inland intention was to run Freightliner type trains from Falmouth to various inland destinations - similar si ort of operation to Southampton in other words.

 

But there were considerable problems finding capacity on the Cornish mainline in particular (let alone the Falmouth branch itself) together with the need to assist trains because of the gradients in both Cornwall and Devon.   What emerged as the ideal trainplan measured against claimed quantities of containers transported on rail that would be loaded from/to ships at Falmouth was a basic hourly pattern of container trains in each direction for much of the day plus paths for some extras.  in other words simiar in some respects to Southampton but overall the number of trains was fewer.  Basically I think De Savary was 'shooting a line' from beginning to end with his Falmouth container port idea by ut some people were prepared to buy into it for whatever reasons.

 

Although the idea was dead & buried by the time I took over as WR Freight Planning Officer the file was still around in the office so I had a good read of it out of interest.  The investment case wasn't a good one and I wouldn't be surprised of my predecessor and deputy who had put together the plan had more than a suspicion that it was never going to happen because Falmouth was simply far too remote to make sense in railway and inland cost terms

 

Oddly I went through a similar sort of process with the development of a coal import terminal for coal for Didcot Power Station where the original idea of Milford Haven was clearly impractical from just about every angle except for actually getting a bulk carrier alongside a deep(ish) water jetty and a stacking/loading site that was going cheap.  After that the proposed unloading port moved eastwards in two stages to finally settle on Avonmouth for the rail loading terminal.

 

So a simple message I think - beware of those entreprneurs who sound all too believable about high capacity shipping container ports in remote places (they're really after the land for something totally different)

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5 hours ago, Not Jeremy said:

Interesting observations, looking at my copy of the image there do appear to be quite a "gaggle"of men in the background, but they could be railway staff.

 

Peter certainly liked to get people in his photographs, here is another favourite of mine, a July 1962 arrival of a Saturday through train at Burnham on Sea.

 

874090524_2204@Burnham.jpg.e3512f2e725b369f467ade4e16a63f59.jpg

 

Apparently the  train arrived quite full, an amazing scene when you think of how things are now.

 

And nothing to do with going back over the moor, although at least this isn't a GW line, but that loco....

 

Are we there yet?

 

Simon 

Interesting place that.  It was in fact 'on my patch' in my days as an Area Manager and although the excursion platform was still (mostly) there the track and just about everything else had long gone.  But despite what might seem a lost cause I visited Burnham every Thursday (on my return from the pay round at that end of the patch) to deliver leaflets, pocket timetables etc to the lady in the local tourist office who was very rail minded and did a lot in recommending folk to make use of the railway via Highbridge station.  I bet she secured us more revenue that Burnham statm itself used to take.

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1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

I don't know what was intended for any countries outside GB but the inland intention was to run Freightliner type trains from Falmouth to various inland destinations - similar si ort of operation to Southampton in other words.

 

But there were considerable problems finding capacity on the Cornish mainline in particular (let alone the Falmouth branch itself) together with the need to assist trains because of the gradients in both Cornwall and Devon.   What emerged as the ideal trainplan measured against claimed quantities of containers transported on rail that would be loaded from/to ships at Falmouth was a basic hourly pattern of container trains in each direction for much of the day plus paths for some extras.  in other words simiar in some respects to Southampton but overall the number of trains was fewer.  Basically I think De Savary was 'shooting a line' from beginning to end with his Falmouth container port idea by ut some people were prepared to buy into it for whatever reasons.

 

Although the idea was dead & buried by the time I took over as WR Freight Planning Officer the file was still around in the office so I had a good read of it out of interest.  The investment case wasn't a good one and I wouldn't be surprised of my predecessor and deputy who had put together the plan had more than a suspicion that it was never going to happen because Falmouth was simply far too remote to make sense in railway and inland cost terms

 

Oddly I went through a similar sort of process with the development of a coal import terminal for coal for Didcot Power Station where the original idea of Milford Haven was clearly impractical from just about every angle except for actually getting a bulk carrier alongside a deep(ish) water jetty and a stacking/loading site that was going cheap.  After that the proposed unloading port moved eastwards in two stages to finally settle on Avonmouth for the rail loading terminal.

 

So a simple message I think - beware of those entreprneurs who sound all too believable about high capacity shipping container ports in remote places (they're really after the land for something totally different)

I do remember hearing about the plans for container traffic to/from Falmouth. Possibly my dad (in the WR civil engineers at the time) might have heard some details. I believe the plans included some through roads or sidings on the up side at Truro to hold the trains. Was the plan for pairs of 37s to work to/from Exeter Riverside then loco change to a class 47 for onwards journey?

 

cheers 

Edited by Rivercider
correction
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On 16/01/2022 at 13:48, The Stationmaster said:

As far as I know the last railborne traffic to come out of Falmouth was fish intended for industrial processing loaded in airbrake open wagons - a long time ago. 

There was a very limited amount of sand (by product of sand blasting) brought up by road from Falmouth and loaded into open wagons in Truro Yard about 20 years ago, but that didn't even use the branch!

 

There were more recent discussions about using Falmouth for containers about 10 years ago, but one factor that stopped that was the need to dredge and the fact that said dredging would have disturbed a marine eco-environment that some wanted to preserve.

 

Then, a couple of years before I retired, the local PW team finally got their way and were allowed to plain-line the GF connection at Falmouth Docks station, because of the cost of maintaining the old fittings and the desire to install CWR. There was a meeting with the docks authority, who were told (by others more senior and intelligent than me and who wore more expensive suits) that the connection could be put back, should container traffic materialise, although they neglected to explicitly inform the Dock company of the cost of doing this with brand new fittings etc.

 

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3 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

There was a very limited amount of sand (by product of sand blasting) brought up by road from Falmouth and loaded into open wagons in Truro Yard about 20 years ago, but that didn't even use the branch!

 

There were more recent discussions about using Falmouth for containers about 10 years ago, but one factor that stopped that was the need to dredge and the fact that said dredging would have disturbed a marine eco-environment that some wanted to preserve.

 

Then, a couple of years before I retired, the local PW team finally got their way and were allowed to plain-line the GF connection at Falmouth Docks station, because of the cost of maintaining the old fittings and the desire to install CWR. There was a meeting with the docks authority, who were told (by others more senior and intelligent than me and who wore more expensive suits) that the connection could be put back, should container traffic materialise, although they neglected to explicitly inform the Dock company of the cost of doing this with brand new fittings etc.

 

I fear that Kernow isn't really viable for Container Stuff, except for possible acceptance of delivery and Distribution (thus taking long distance trucks off the road), and I doubt the few Containers that maybe filled, would be viable on todays Commercial Railway. Let's face it, when I were just a yoof, there were plans to stop the Railway at the Tamar! 

Truth be I think, that without vast investment, heavy rail development down  that there WOE, is probably not going to happen. Sorry. 

I also suspect that Containerisation of huge amounts of stuff across thousands of miles, may not be  the way in 25 + years time. Huge Ships are not good for the planet. Also, apart from or toy trains and possibly food, why the hell do we need to bring in tons of crap from all over the place in such huge amounts? Yes, I know, people need stuff. Well, if people don't stop needing so much stuff the Planet is fooked. The way things are now will be looked back on by our descendants (I hope), as being completely awful. 

So, what the #### do we plan for? Someone said (Cap'n K?) our Railways are not set up for huge transfers of freight and that is just so sad as if it was then some much could be different.  I can see the future of long distance Train Travel for work actually reducing in the future; yup, I know that is a bold statement. Light Rail/Tram style travel maybe, but maybe the 'big railway' will develop for freight as it did in the USA? (Did I really say that? Yuch) and Individuals/groups will travel by road in less polluting personal transport pods or in smaller electric flying things. 

My apologies: having looked at this thread it seems to have moved a hell of long way from Okehampton and I have moved, like a Time Traveller, even further away and in time also.

P.

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without hopefully straying too OT but the problem is not that everybody wants stuff, home delivered 10 mins ago.

It is the fact that for a lot of stuff, it is cheaper to make said stuff on the other side of the world then ship it here, by boat. That can't be just down to 'cheap labour' can it?

Anyway, surely the plan for the future is, if we need stuff then it is sourced/manufactured as close to home as possible - it happens to a small extent with food/produce. If it is going to happen with 'everything else' then that may see a return to a UK Manufacturing Industry with the obvious proviso - somehow, at some point it'll cost more than we are used to. (Even if it could be done on a cost-neutral basis you can bet that will never happen - all the excuses in the world will come out about how it costs more to do less)

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3 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

 

So where else in Cornwall is there? St Blazey Yard, possibly, but awkward to get to, poor road access for large road lorries

Unless things have changed drastically its not so bad; off the Down Main at Par past the station loop and go left into the yard off the Newquay Branch!  Surely theres enough rusting track there with road access off StB road and the large lorries we've encountered don't seem to see a problem with poor access.  There's enough lorries and enough poor roads! 

    But you will soon have a turntable:clapping:

          Brian.

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3 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

My apologies: having looked at this thread it seems to have moved a hell of long way from Okehampton and I have moved, like a Time Traveller, even further away and in time

Phil, me 'andsome. all this is an exercise in pure nostalgia!  Like earlier comments it will come to naught and probably return to Okehampton in the fullness of time.  Good fun though, but its time to retire and ponder the reopening of the Chacewater line to Newquay!:good:

      Brian

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Given that using the like button really doesn't do the job enough, I would like to thank @Captain Kernow (who in this case took the time to write a lengthy reply) and @The Stationmaster (for the frequency of his posts) and the many others currently or in the past in the UK rail industry who take the time to educate the rest of us about the realities of the industry.

 

The amount of knowledge they make available for those willing to read and learn from it is invaluable.

 

 

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12 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

Well, the demand was most certainly not there about 10 years ago, when (as one of the NR managers) I was very much involved with a very serious attempt to run two daily (nightly) container trains to (a) Plymouth and (b) Truro.

 

'Reliability' was definitely not seen as an 'issue' back then.

 

Cost was.

 

Like I said, it was the adverse economics. We tried really hard to get it to pay, but the sums just didn't add up.

 

That point is utter rubbish, sorry but it is.

 

One thing that the whole exercise made abundantly clear to me, is that essentially Victorian railway infrastructure is simply not fit for the size of freight operation that the economics of modern rail logistics demands.

 

I don't know how the Highland Spring water is loaded, but we needed a large yard at both Plymouth and in mid-Cornwall, where good road rail interchange opportunities existed or could be created and where the necessary handling equipment (reach stacker or overhead gantry crane) could be installed.

 

 

 

 

It seems to be a very different philosophy in Scotland. The Highland Spring flow is having its own yard built. The Supermarket containers to Aberdeen are unloaded at Craiginches yard, which was built on a green field site a few years ago. 

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

It seems to be a very different philosophy in Scotland. The Highland Spring flow is having its own yard built. The Supermarket containers to Aberdeen are unloaded at Craiginches yard, which was built on a green field site a few years ago. 

 

 

 

 

The trouble with green field sites around Plymouth is that they are nowhere near the railway and where they are, there's no roads suitable for HGV's.

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