Okehampton Railway re-opening

[JohnR]

2 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

 

The trouble with green field sites around Plymouth is that they are nowhere near the railway and where they are, there's no roads suitable for HGV's.

 

Council upgraded the road access for Craiginches Yard. 

[Zomboid]

Not that I want to be a naysayer, but if Tavistock Junction (a site in largest city in the area with excellent road access and plenty of railway land) wouldn't fly, then the economics of building a container handling facility in the south west just don't stack up.

 

Something (or things) external needs to happen to skew the economics in favour of rail. Maybe decarbonising road freight will do the job, maybe the ridiculous price of diesel will, maybe road pricing, maybe a bit of everything...

[Oldddudders]

8 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Not that I want to be a naysayer, but if Tavistock Junction (a site in largest city in the area with excellent road access and plenty of railway land) wouldn't fly, then the economics of building a container handling facility in the south west just don't stack up.

 

Something (or things) external needs to happen to skew the economics in favour of rail. Maybe decarbonising road freight will do the job, maybe the ridiculous price of diesel will, maybe road pricing, maybe a bit of everything...

I think it far more likely that within 10 years electric lorries will be a realistic proposition for road hauliers.

[Captain Kernow]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

Not that I want to be a naysayer, but if Tavistock Junction (a site in largest city in the area with excellent road access and plenty of railway land) wouldn't fly, then the economics of building a container handling facility in the south west just don't stack up.

Good road access is close by in the form of the Marsh Mills junction off the A38 'Devon Expressway', but it's pretty awkward to access the yard itself from the A38 with large lorries, plus the fact that it's all immediately adjacent to busy residential areas, so I doubt that the local council would be quite as accommodating as they appear to have been in Scotland.

 

Road access to Tavistock Jct and also the proximity to the local houses was one of the concerns we had during the project.

 

[corneliuslundie]

And then there will suddenly be a shortage of the materials for the batteries, which I seem to remember mostly come from countries with less than ideal governments. And that electricity has to be generated. I'll believe electric lorries when I see them.

No, I am afraid that the only sensible long term approach for governments is to force freight back on the rails and provide the facilities for the railway to handle it. And for life to adapt to less movement of both freight and passengers around the world. But such policies will never win elections and cost money, so we shall never reach our targets for "green" issues.

Jonathan

[Captain Kernow]

1 hour ago, JohnR said:

It seems to be a very different philosophy in Scotland. The Highland Spring flow is having its own yard built. The Supermarket containers to Aberdeen are unloaded at Craiginches yard, which was built on a green field site a few years ago. 

I would argue that the 'philosophy' is the same across Network Rail and the national rail freight carriers but it is the economics that is different.

 

The whole economic basis of the proposed SW scheme was the need for minimal start-up costs. Even the provision of a concrete hard standing and a reach-stacker was making the project marginal to begin with.

 

We never even got to the point where we had 'sold' a full train each day for Plymouth or Cornwall. The Plymouth train had a better take-up, about 75% of the space was provisionally 'booked' by two major customers in the Plymouth area but the Cornwall train never really got above about 60% full.

 

'Full' was 26 boxes on a 13 vehicle train.

 

The problems finding enough custom for the Cornwall train proved insuperable in the end, despite the fact that one major supermarket was particularly keen (but even they only wanted a maximum of 3 boxes per day). That major supermarket had problems manning the lorries in the summer, because traffic congestion in the SW caused the single driver to go over their hours, so a second driver had to be provided for each trip, so the saving to them by switching to rail transport seemed quite attractive.

 

But all this was, in any case, a bit of a race against the clock, as double decker lorries were on the point of being introduced and their larger capacity made the rail business case even weaker.

 

[Captain Kernow]

10 hours ago, brianusa said:

Unless things have changed drastically its not so bad; off the Down Main at Par past the station loop and go left into the yard off the Newquay Branch!  Surely theres enough rusting track there with road access off StB road and the large lorries we've encountered don't seem to see a problem with poor access.

Hi Brian,

 

If only that had been possible! But St Blazey Yard is awkward to get to from a rail access point of view, requiring a back-shunt off the Newquay branch and then further shunting within the yard, which would also have required a fair bit of investment to make it fit for handling containers.

 

There is already a lot of heavy road transport in the area and the yard also has some residential areas nearby and I doubt that the local authority would have been happy with the idea of even more heavy lorries there.

 

Low start-up costs were an absolute pre-requisite for this scheme and any consideration of St Blazey Yard assumes that DB Schenker would have been happy to have given over sufficient space within their yard (despite the fact that parts of it weren't seeing much use by then).

 

The sidings immediately behind the signal box are not really long enough and would have required the train to have been split once, possibly more times, all of which adds time and expense to the operation.

 

Once the haulier changed from DB Schenker to Devon & Cornwall Railways, then St Blazey Yard was a non-starter and only NR infrastructure would be possible.

 

Also, I think the fact that only Devon & Cornwall Railways (the 'freight arm' of British American Railway Services if you like) were prepared to even consider taking this operation on, tells us something about the parlous economics of the proposed operation.

 

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, JohnR said:

 

It seems to be a very different philosophy in Scotland. The Highland Spring flow is having its own yard built. The Supermarket containers to Aberdeen are unloaded at Craiginches yard, which was built on a green field site a few years ago. 

 

 

 

Yes - but - the Highland Spring bottling etc plant is near to the railway with plenty of space nearby and an existing loop and crossover at the site of the freight facility so the job will be relatively less expensive to create a usable terminal.  Incidentally unless somebody is going to build another level crossing presumably the containers will be taken by road from the bottling to the new railfreight facilty and that appears to be the case from what Russell's and Highland Spring have said in their press releases which has seen 40% of the production from Ochil transfer to rail haulage.

 

As explained above by 'Captain Kernow' if you want to  build a container transhipping (between road and rail) facility you need a suitable site at which to construct it adjacent to a railway line and it needs good road access for large artics.  If people can't make the numbers add up and there isn't a suitable site meeting those basic criteria then it isn't going to happen.

 

And that applies just as much in Scotland as anywhere else.  I was involved in some consultancy work for new station in Scotland and it was in the Scottish Govt's list of projects for which money would be available and fully supported by various local councils in connection with new housing developments.  A non-railway consultancy had looked at the traffic impact etc and it was positive and they had selected a site which then needed somebody like me to assess its suitability and impact from a railway viewpoint.  

 

Nice straightforward job - except the selected site was on a steep gradient with a short length of straight track (too short) leading into transition with increasing cant into a curve in one direction and a road overbridge in the opposite direction.  Better site on the other side of the overbridge except the gradient was even steeper and in order to get in the level of train service they wanted 9 miles of double line needed to be resignalled.  There was no site with any sort of decent road access within a couple of miles and even the site of long closed station couldn't be re-used because of the gradient (and the need for resignalling).  What made good sense on paper failed the practicality test which ever way you looked at plus the cost - even with the cheapest resignalling we could devise - went into the unaffordable zone.  There still isn't a station there today so even with the money available and the most positive backing in the world schemes still don't happen if they are impractical or cost too much.

[6892 Oakhill Grange]

8 hours ago, JohnR said:

 

Council upgraded the road access for Craiginches Yard. 

Both posts about Craiginches seem to flatter the situation.

 

Yes it was a greenfield site, but it is a strip of unused land trapped between the railway and East Tullos industrial estate.  It was not rolling hills and would only ever have been zoned for industrial use.  Part of the strip of land was already developed for light industrial and the railway and the cement terminal are between the terminal and any residential areas.  

 

The estate already generates significant HGV traffic and the road network in the estate was already developed, so I am not sure to what extent the council upgraded the roads beyond creating the access to the strip which would be about 20m of tarmac.  The extra HGV traffic on Wellington Road would hardly be noticed, although this was all pre WPR and perhaps things may have changed.

 

So I imagine planning permissions for the Craiginches terminal would have been straightforward.

 

Also recognize that this all allowed a major redevelopment of the Guild St yard to go ahead, the rail traffic already existed, the council would have wanted the Guild St development to proceed and presumably the development paid for the new terminal.

 

All sounds a lot easier than the Captain describes for his project.

 

Oakhill Grange (of AB15 or Muscat)

[The Stationmaster]

Supplementing the post above.  Craiginches container terminal is built on the site of Craiginches Down side yard.  Quite what it was used for in the past I don't know  although the 1935 Handbook of Stations lists it but shows no traffic facilities and calls it 'Craiginches Sidings' which suggests to me that it was exactly that.  It retained a signalled connection at the north end (shown as the only running line connected end of the sidings on one past OS map) in the 1981 Aberdeen resignalling which abolished the South and North signal boxes at Craiginches.

 

So Craiginches was definitely not a greenfield site and was most likely (semi-?) redundant land which had probably remained in railway ownership.   Thus it is directly comparable with the freight facility at Blackford which has been built on the site of the former station and its associated goods yard (which had four  sidings). 

[Mallard60022]

Have we forgotten the proposed reopening of mining in Cornwall to access some sort of materials suitable for Trickery stuff? I had! Not that that would need huge train loads of Ore etc. BUT the economics of Kernow might just be about to resurge....there's a tip to canny investors who want to make a ton of dosh....but at whose expense?

Lets be more positive about stuff. 25 years hence is 1/4 of a Century FFS, and then look back 25 years and see where Technology was then eh!  End of the 90s was an interesting time and I had almost retired from FT work. 

I feel we get stuck looking at the immediate situations and I can see why with Government run as it is here still....stagnant crap (enough now). IF that arrangement was redesigned then maybe the future would not rely on votes every whenever? As far back as I can remember no Elected mob ever want to promise what will happen in 25 years time  as they know they will be gone, dead, or replaced by the same old same old. That's life though isn't it, so we can but dream. Tomorrow's World.......(Q intro and run VT).

Hate to say this, but I reckon the Country will be very very different in 25 years time and I won't be here to see it....but my kids and Grandkids will God willing. It could be an interesting place indeed.

Dr. Who.

[Mallard60022]

Oh yes, can Mike and Cap'n be my new 'Companions'?

Dr.

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by Mallard60022

[Northmoor]

2 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

Have we forgotten the proposed reopening of mining in Cornwall to access some sort of materials suitable for Trickery stuff? I had! Not that that would need huge train loads of Ore etc. BUT the economics of Kernow might just be about to resurge....there's a tip to canny investors who want to make a ton of dosh....but at whose expense?

Lets be more positive about stuff. 25 years hence is 1/4 of a Century FFS, and then look back 25 years and see where Technology was then eh!  End of the 90s was an interesting time and I had almost retired from FT work. 

I feel we get stuck looking at the immediate situations and I can see why with Government run as it is here still....stagnant crap (enough now). IF that arrangement was redesigned then maybe the future would not rely on votes every whenever? As far back as I can remember no Elected mob ever want to promise what will happen in 25 years time  as they know they will be gone, dead, or replaced by the same old same old. That's life though isn't it, so we can but dream. Tomorrow's World.......(Q intro and run VT).

Hate to say this, but I reckon the Country will be very very different in 25 years time and I won't be here to see it....but my kids and Grandkids will God willing. It could be an interesting place indeed.

Dr. Who.

You could well be right about Cornwall's future; it won't become a wealthy tech centre but at least some of the (often hidden) poverty might be addressed if mining and refining were to return.  I grew up in Pembrokeshire, a similar place now with lots of low-wage, short-season tourist industry jobs but very little all-year-round, good earning work; also lots of second homes and many areas completely unaffordable to anyone earning typical local wages.

It may turn out to be a small positive to come from the pandemic; previously there were huge numbers of those second homes unoccupied or AirBnB'd for much of the year, because the owners worked in London and the SE.  Now they are working remotely they can stay in Cornwall; it doesn't release any more housing onto the market, but if those people live in Cornwall all year, they will be spending much more of their money in Cornwall, which creates more employment and "local GDP".

[Mallard60022]

Why are Left Wing strike happy unions nasty Phil? Asking for a friend in the RMT.

P

[Mallard60022]

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

You could well be right about Cornwall's future; it won't become a wealthy tech centre but at least some of the (often hidden) poverty might be addressed if mining and refining were to return.  I grew up in Pembrokeshire, a similar place now with lots of low-wage, short-season tourist industry jobs but very little all-year-round, good earning work; also lots of second homes and many areas completely unaffordable to anyone earning typical local wages.

It may turn out to be a small positive to come from the pandemic; previously there were huge numbers of those second homes unoccupied or AirBnB'd for much of the year, because the owners worked in London and the SE.  Now they are working remotely they can stay in Cornwall; it doesn't release any more housing onto the market, but if those people live in Cornwall all year, they will be spending much more of their money in Cornwall, which creates more employment and "local GDP".

Loads of places like those you describe NM. Demographics have changed dramatically and the last two years has had both positive and negative affects on Communities. The Authorities need to learn from this and not just revert to their norms and a lot of 'comfortable' older people need to be just a tad more understanding of the issues of younger folk.

[phil-b259]

4 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

Why are Left Wing strike happy unions nasty Phil? Asking for a friend in the RMT.

P

 

I was paraphrasing the views of a certain political ideology - one which has its hands on the leavers of power at present.

 

Not sure where my post has vanished to - but why is the Government quite happy to string OLE over our motorways  for electric HGVs but incredibly reluctant to put OLE over railways?

Edited January 19, 2022 by phil-b259

[Mallard60022]

35 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

I was paraphrasing the views of a certain political ideology - one which has its hands on the leavers of power at present.

 

Not sure where my post has vanished to - but why is the Government quite happy to string OLE over our motorways  for electric HGVs but incredibly reluctant to put OLE over railways?

Oh I see. Sadly it looked like Railway Union bashing and that is politics on here so Moderated.

P

[Captain Kernow]

55 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

Not sure where my post has vanished to - but why is the Government quite happy to string OLE over our motorways  for electric HGVs but incredibly reluctant to put OLE over railways?

I hadn't picked up on this development, are we getting trolley lorries?

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by Captain Kernow

[phil-b259]

22 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Oh I see. Sadly it looked like Railway Union bashing and that is politics on here so Moderated.

P

 

To be fair it depends on they type of 'bashing'.

 

If its the 'everything will be perfect in the Union run socialist utopia' nonsense the RMT spout then I am quite happy to bash the Union about it.

 

If its doing the day to day donkey work for members (protecting pay, T&Cs, pensions, etc) then I am generally supportive of Unions - fortunately the RMT are pretty good at this aspect and hence I am a member despite hating their political agenda.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

13 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

I hadn't picked up on this development, are we getting trolley lorries?

 

 

Yup, all funded by taxpayers...

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/road-freight-goes-green-with-20-million-funding-boost

https://trans.info/en/uk-government-to-fund-electric-road-system-trial-on-m180-near-scunthorpe-248190

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jul/27/uk-government-backs-scheme-for-motorway-cables-to-power-lorries

https://www.costain.com/news/news-releases/green-light-for-path-to-uk-s-first-electric-motorway/

Edited January 19, 2022 by phil-b259

[Captain Kernow]

13 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Yup, all funded by taxpayers...

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/road-freight-goes-green-with-20-million-funding-boost

https://trans.info/en/uk-government-to-fund-electric-road-system-trial-on-m180-near-scunthorpe-248190

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jul/27/uk-government-backs-scheme-for-motorway-cables-to-power-lorries

https://www.costain.com/news/news-releases/green-light-for-path-to-uk-s-first-electric-motorway/

Well, I never thought we'd see such a thing!

 

Batteries, yes but not catenary for roads.

 

[corneliuslundie]

I have just had a brilliant idea. How about electric milk floats?

Hat, coat . . .

Jonathan

[brianusa]

 

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Have we forgotten the proposed reopening of mining in Cornwall to access some sort of materials suitable for Trickery stuff? I had! Not that that would need huge train loads of Ore etc. BUT the economics of Kernow might just be about to resurge....there's a tip to canny investors who want to make a ton of dosh>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

It is said that ore still lies beneath the western slopes of Bodmin Moor with granite as a default export..  This was heavily exploited in the last couple of centuries until the economics of the thing became a problem.  There was even a railway, the Liskeard & Caradon, to haul it all away to the docks at Looe.  It went further afield in GW days until this too suffered economically.  A century or two later it might be possible to resurrect this source due to changing times and mineral needs.

      Brian.

         (Supporter of lost causes)

 

[Mallard60022]

2 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

To be fair it depends on they type of 'bashing'.

 

If its the 'everything will be perfect in the Union run socialist utopia' nonsense the RMT spout then I am quite happy to bash the Union about it.

 

If its doing the day to day donkey work for members (protecting pay, T&Cs, pensions, etc) then I am generally supportive of Unions - fortunately the RMT are pretty good at this aspect and hence I am a member despite hating their political agenda.

Not a wise idea in public on here as it is 'Politics' on the get moderated list if you look. Just sayin as others have gone because they express such views in public; not my place though but just advising you, from experience.

P

[Mallard60022]

26 minutes ago, brianusa said:

 

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Have we forgotten the proposed reopening of mining in Cornwall to access some sort of materials suitable for Trickery stuff? I had! Not that that would need huge train loads of Ore etc. BUT the economics of Kernow might just be about to resurge....there's a tip to canny investors who want to make a ton of dosh>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

It is said that ore still lies beneath the western slopes of Bodmin Moor with granite as a default export..  This was heavily exploited in the last couple of centuries until the economics of the thing became a problem.  There was even a railway, the Liskeard & Caradon, to haul it all away to the docks at Looe.  It went further afield in GW days until this too suffered economically.  A century or two later it might be possible to resurrect this source due to changing times and mineral needs.

      Brian.

         (Supporter of lost causes)

 

It is the stuff for batteries that lies in the Kernow ground Brian. been developing over the last few years.

P