Were banana vans every yellow?

[Fat Controller]

37 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That does seem to have been the case with the upper panels of LNWR carriages and may be the origin of the cream-coloured upper panels used by some other railways but I think in the case of the LSWR by the late 19th century there was a clear intention to produce a salmon colour; as I posted before, Bixley et al. think this carriage colour was the colour used for refrigerator etc. vans. I don't have the HMRS Southern Style which might give a different story.

 

 

Re. "light stone" - at which time do you mean? (Is this what Southern Style says?)

 

Pigments based on white lead were prone to darkening in the presence of sulfur dioxide - a common atmospheric pollutant in coal-fired days - by a chemical reaction producing black lead sulfide. Other whites were available by the late 19th century, such as the oxalic white used for the lettering on Midland (and I suppose other) wagons but white lead was widely used not only as it was cheap but also because it forms an effective water-repellent coating for woodwork.

The info came from a mid-1960s 'Model Railway Constructor', which had an annotated 7mm drawing. The livery details were for the mid-1930s

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That does seem to have been the case with the upper panels of LNWR carriages and may be the origin of the cream-coloured upper panels used by some other railways but I think in the case of the LSWR by the late 19th century there was a clear intention to produce a salmon colour; as I posted before, Bixley et al. think this carriage colour was the colour used for refrigerator etc. vans. I don't have the HMRS Southern Style which might give a different story.

 

 

Re. "light stone" - at which time do you mean? (Is this what Southern Style says?)

 

Pigments based on white lead were prone to darkening in the presence of sulfur dioxide - a common atmospheric pollutant in coal-fired days - by a chemical reaction producing black lead sulfide. Other whites were available by the late 19th century, such as the oxalic white used for the lettering on Midland (and I suppose other) wagons but white lead was widely used not only as it was cheap but also because it forms an effective water-repellent coating for woodwork.

Oxalic Acid. Not very pleasant stuff if misused. But it was great for lettering. Look how bright the lettering is on Midland wagon photos.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxalic_acid#Toxicity

 

Of course with the lettering staying white and the lead in the grey paint on wagons, which went gradually darker, Midlands wagons with their LARGE lettering, stood out very well in photographs. No missing them!

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Oxalic Acid. Not very pleasant stuff if misused.

 

The lead-based paints probably did for you first, being used in greater quantity. DO NOT LICK YOUR WAGONS!

[The Johnster]

4 hours ago, mikesndbs said:

Transfer question, if I wanted to have a go at converting some vans to 1952 banana vans, where would I get transfers to do this please?

 

Cambridge Custom Transfers, sheet BL 149.

[Fat Controller]

16 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Cambridge Custom Transfers, sheet BL 149.

If using the Ratio kit, then be aware it includes transfers in the early BR 'unboxed' style. The most recent ones I purchased also had 'Trader's Labels' for Fyfees and Geest, and also wheels.

[Robin Brasher]

I am beginning to think that the Fyffes banana vans were painted yellow before Nationalisation.  Peco have just released an 009 Fyffes banana van in yellow with a vermillion roof. The March Railway Modeller said it was based on a real standard gauge example.  Ace Trains also had a yellow 0 gauge Fyffes banana van in their range.

 

In the absence of any information about the prototype it would be very difficult to prove that the Fyffes banana wagons were not yellow given the number of model manufacturers that have produced them independently in yellow,

[The Johnster]

But this assumes, or at least seems to suggest, that the RTR producers are right, and privy to info that ‘the collective’ here, which includes some folks of very considerable erudition who are privy to the same research facilities and some of whose published works are consulted, are not.  And I’d say the collective’s track record is a good bit more trustworthy than he RTR producers in the matter of goods vehicles. 

[Compound2632]

Do we believe in red roofs, solebars, and running gear? Peco have! (At least the roof, anyway.)

[Dungrange]

2 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

In the absence of any information about the prototype it would be very difficult to prove that the Fyffes banana wagons were not yellow given the number of model manufacturers that have produced them independently in yellow,

 

I'm not knowledgeable on the subject of banana vans, but model railway manufacturers will produce what they think will sell, whether it is realistic or not.  Many of those buying wagons, especially children, do not care about prototypical accuracy and something that provides a splash of colour among what is otherwise generally grey and bauxite coloured wagons is likely to appeal to a sizeable proportion of the toy train market.

 

That said, even if no banana van was ever actually painted yellow, it is possible that there is a drawing somewhere that was produced for promotional purposes that showed a yellow van (a liberty taken by the artist for advertising purposes).  Hornby have announced that they are producing the LNER W1 'Hush hush' in LNER Green - a livery that the real locomotive never carried.  Why?  Well, I believe that a cigarette card was produced showing an LNER Green Hush Hush, so that's a good enough reason and it may be a more appealing colour to those who are simply buying a novelty.

[Compound2632]

17 minutes ago, Dungrange said:

 

I'm not knowledgeable on the subject of banana vans, but model railway manufacturers will produce what they think will sell, whether it is realistic or not.  Many of those buying wagons, especially children, do not care about prototypical accuracy and something that provides a splash of colour among what is otherwise generally grey and bauxite coloured wagons is likely to appeal to a sizeable proportion of the toy train market.

 

That said, even if no banana van was ever actually painted yellow, it is possible that there is a drawing somewhere that was produced for promotional purposes that showed a yellow van (a liberty taken by the artist for advertising purposes).  Hornby have announced that they are producing the LNER W1 'Hush hush' in LNER Green - a livery that the real locomotive never carried.  Why?  Well, I believe that a cigarette card was produced showing an LNER Green Hush Hush, so that's a good enough reason and it may be a more appealing colour to those who are simply buying a novelty.

 

It's perfectly reasonable to make a model of something as it might have been, provided it's not passed off as how it was. The Bachman NER green Raven E1 springs to mind...

[Guy Rixon]

On my list of stock to build for my own layout is a train of LNWR banana vans. I may do them in resin as a printed kit. If so, I'll make the prints available for purchase.

[Compound2632]

The trouble with modelling banana vans is that, as far as I can work out, they ran in block trains. So if you want one, you want forty. (Well, twenty.)

[The Johnster]

Not just banana vans; it would be unusual (not unknown) to see cattle wagons other than in block trains, and petrol and similar traffics passed from refineries to distribution depots in block trains as well.  Mineral traffic apart from coal was almost exclusively in block trains as well; coal ran in blocks, but also as the tail end of part fitted trains.  

 

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Not just banana vans; it would be unusual (not unknown) to see cattle wagons other than in block trains, and petrol and similar traffics passed from refineries to distribution depots in block trains as well.  Mineral traffic apart from coal was almost exclusively in block trains as well; coal ran in blocks, but also as the tail end of part fitted trains.  

 

 

True, but those are mostly less specialised vehicles. I can justify two or three cattle wagons, especially on a branch line, but in that context I can't really think: "Oh, a banana van would be nice" without stretching credulity beyond the limit. 

 

However, a have to relent a little: the up Manchester express goods train wreaked at Sharnbrook in 1909 included five banana vans, so I'll take that as a minimum quantity - or say four to allow for the modeller's necessary compression of train lengths.

Edited February 16, 2020 by Compound2632

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

True, but those are mostly less specialised vehicles. I can justify two or three cattle wagons, especially on a branch line, but in that context I can't really think: "Oh, a banana van would be nice" without stretching credulity beyond the limit. 

 

However, a have to relent a little: the up Manchester express goods train wreaked at Sharnbrook in 1909 included five banana vans, so I'll take that as a minimum quantity - or say four to allow for the modeller's necessary compression of train lengths.

Amongst the places which had bananas delivered by rail, until the traffic ceased in the mid-1970s, were Barnstaple and Warminster; neither is exactly a metropolis.

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

Amongst the places which had bananas delivered by rail, until the traffic ceased in the mid-1970s, were Barnstaple and Warminster; neither is exactly a metropolis.

 

But were they delivered by banana van, or as passenger guard's van traffic?

[Fat Controller]

8 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But were they delivered by banana van, or as passenger guard's van traffic?

Banana vans; they were standing outside; the buildings at both locations were unprepossessing structures, possibly 'Provender Stores', such as Ratio sell. 

[Compound2632]

Well I'll go eat the squishy black banana of penitence.

[The Johnster]

Banana vans, IIRC 9' wheelbase types, were also used as fitted heads on class 8 iron ore trains in South Wales, with sandbag ballast loads.  The Llanharan-Cardiff East Moors traffic was of this sort as were trains of Spanish imported ore from Barry or Cardiff Docks to Corby or Scunthorpe, the iron ore being in 35ton hoppers.  Hymeks were used on the Corby/Scunthorpe trains, but whether they went further than Banbury I couldn't say.

Edited February 17, 2020 by The Johnster

[corneliuslundie]

The other thing about banana van traffic over the years is that it changed as the ports fought to capture the traffic from each other., From memory, Barry, Southampton and Liverpool were the main ports at different dates.

And yes, a simple wagon is an excellent introduction to kits - and the next stage is scratch building, for all those prototypes which the trade will never produce. Not suitable for everyone but if  you model pre 1912 start with something dumb buffered such as a coal or timber wagon. Then all you need to buy is wheels and axleboxes, so cheap if the first one is a disaster.

But back on tropic, it is pretty clear that on the SR at least, and apparently also the LNER, banana vans were the same colour as meat vans. On the GWR from photos they seem in later years anyway to be the same colour as other vans (eg photos 31 and 32 in Jim Russell's first wagons book, so presumably grey, and not a light colour such as white, cream, stone, yellow. All Great Western Way says is "When steam heated Banana Vans reappeared after the Great War they carried a white disc painted on the right hand end of the solebar about two feet in diameter." No mention of colour though again the van in the photo looks GWR grey.

If there were any yellow ones, I suspect that, as suggested above, they were so painted for promotional purposes or dreamed up by the advertising staff. Bear in mind that there are plenty of photos of PO coal wagons in liveries in which they never ran in service, thanks mainly to Hurst Nelson. 

But were any banana vans privately owned? I think not but may well be wrong.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

 

But were any banana vans privately owned? I think not but may well be wrong.

 

 

I very much doubt you are wrong on that point. They're uniformly company-owned vehicles, the only pre-grouping ones of which I'm aware being LNWR, Midland, and Great Western, with the LSWR coming on the scene just before the Great War.

[Guy Rixon]

12 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Not just banana vans; it would be unusual (not unknown) to see cattle wagons other than in block trains, and petrol and similar traffics passed from refineries to distribution depots in block trains as well.  Mineral traffic apart from coal was almost exclusively in block trains as well; coal ran in blocks, but also as the tail end of part fitted trains.  

 

For the oil traffic, the block trains started in 1939, by government dictat. All seaborne oil was redirected from east-coast ports to the west coast and the products then moved to eastern distribution centres in block trains. The rail tanks of oil were not allowed to stay in the "Red Zone" overnight, so had to be efficiently managed; hence the block trains.

 

Prior to the war, oil products more often moved in single tanks or small groups.

[Guy Rixon]

12 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The trouble with modelling banana vans is that, as far as I can work out, they ran in block trains. So if you want one, you want forty. (Well, twenty.)

In my edge-case, the layout will include a ripening facility within basket-carrying distance of Covent Garden, next to a cross-London line with the LNWR at one end. Therefore, I presume that the block trains came from Manchester to Camden, were split, and a portion of 8 to 12 vans went on to Strand. Where the rest went is unclear; Stratford market is one possible destination.

[Guy Rixon]

19 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I very much doubt you are wrong on that point. They're uniformly company-owned vehicles, the only pre-grouping ones of which I'm aware being LNWR, Midland, and Great Western, with the LSWR coming on the scene just before the Great War.

I think the GNR also had some. If I've remember this right, they were actually assigned to traffic from Southampton; presumably the LSWR didn't have enough vans to have them tied up north of London. There's pictures in the GNR Society book about fitted and special vans (which of which I'm sure I will eventually find my copy).

[Compound2632]

38 minutes ago, Guy Rixon said:

I think the GNR also had some. If I've remember this right, they were actually assigned to traffic from Southampton; presumably the LSWR didn't have enough vans to have them tied up north of London. There's pictures in the GNR Society book about fitted and special vans (which of which I'm sure I will eventually find my copy).

 

I'd not studied the Great Northern section of P. Tatlow, LNER Wagons Vol. 1 (Wild Swan, 2005) as it's not at all my area of interest - I'd bought it for the CLC info - but I find 16 ft (9'6" WB) and 18 ft (9'10" WB) banana vans on pp. 52-55; 20 of the 16 ft vans, apparently built 1905, and 80 of the 18 ft vans at 31 Dec 1922. As Tatlow works backwards from the LNER period, build info is frustratingly vague. The photos show vans in LNER condition, shorn of their steam heating and relegated to ordinary fitted van status, the East Coast banana traffic having dwindled or ceased entirely. I'm a bit puzzled by the LSWR connection, if these were for Southampton - West Riding banana traffic, as I would have thought the Midland a more natural partner.

 

As usual, the LNWR seems to have been first in the field for this traffic, its first banana vans dating from 1904 with the Midland and, I now learn, the Great Northern joining the fray in 1905. I'd welcome clarification but my impression is that import was first through Liverpool, hence the LNWR, Midland, and perhaps Great Northern, interest, though later (but still before the Great War) the Midland was running Avonmouth - St Pancras banana trains via the SMJ. I don't have Atkins to hand but from what I can glean, Great Western banana traffic began c. 1913, at much the same time as the LSWR traffic.