John Tomlinson Posted February 15, 2020 Share Posted February 15, 2020 (edited) I know this subject has been covered in various aspects before, but I am looking at modifying a Bachmann 44 to be as D4 shortly after receiving Rail Blue in 1967. A fine photo in the Strathwood book about Sulzer diesels shows a good amount of detail, water tank removed, handholds still open etc., plus the issue of having full yellow ends, rather than small as has been mooted in the past. I am however curious as to roof colour, as the picture suggests it might still be gray. We know that the initial repaints into BSYP at Derby did keep a gray roof, indeed the same Strathwood book has a very crisp shot of a clean D79 in just this livery. As D4 into BFYP was one of the earliest to take this scheme I am wondering if there might be an anomaly from standard on the roof colour. Any thoughts very gratefully received. John. Edited February 16, 2020 by John Tomlinson error, refence should be D79 not D78 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidlandRed Posted February 15, 2020 Share Posted February 15, 2020 (edited) I saw this at Bescot heading out of the yard on a freight towards Walsall late in 1967. I have it recorded as Bfyp and don't recall it having a grey roof (I think this may have featured on some of the earlier 1966 repaints, which had red buffer beams, syp and no British Rail symbols, with numbers on the cab sides - effectively a similar arrangement to the previous green except no lower grey band). It had FYP, the numbers (two each side behind the cabs) on the body sides, and BR symbols on each cab side, I think with the small M (Midland Lines) under the numbers. The one thing that is very memorable was the filthiness of the body sides - the D4 numbers had been cleaned so they could be read (presenting an interesting model weathering prospect). My recollection is this loco had a blue roof (I.e. Standard livery application) though it was probably filthy as well! As Derby had been turning out standard liveried Type 2s since Nov 1966 (D7662 on), presuming D4 was repainted at Derby, I can't see why a 1967 repaint would differ from standard spec. Edited February 15, 2020 by MidlandRed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted February 15, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 15, 2020 1 hour ago, John Tomlinson said: I know this subject has been covered in various aspects before, but I am looking at modifying a Bachmann 44 to be as D4 shortly after receiving Rail Blue in 1967. A fine photo in the Strathwood book about Sulzer diesels shows a good amount of detail, water tank removed, handholds still open etc., plus the issue of having full yellow ends, rather than small as has been mooted in the past. I am however curious as to roof colour, as the picture suggests it might still be gray. We know that the initial repaints into BSYP at Derby did keep a gray roof, indeed the same Strathwood book has a very crisp shot of a clean D78 in just this livery. As D4 into BFYP was one of the earliest to take this scheme I am wondering if there might be an anomaly from standard on the roof colour. Any thoughts very gratefully received. John. Are you planning the additional nose end footsteps John - visible under the nose grille below? The reason she had the extra OHLE flashes... Heres our homage... 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted February 15, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 15, 2020 And this excellent Brush Veteran photo of her at Toton in 1971 was our reference... https://www.flickr.com/photos/59835095@N02/6309658116/in/album-72157627919964053/ Have just noticed the boiler variables - tanks gone, filler access steps plated, roof fillers unfaired - but she still has the bogie filler access steps present - unlike our model. Luckily theres some in the spares box.... Another one for the Crimes thread..... unless I can fix it before the knock on the door...... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidlandRed Posted February 15, 2020 Share Posted February 15, 2020 Great model there. In the 1971 Toton photo, there looks to be a small M below the number and just above the data panel. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted February 15, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 15, 2020 15 minutes ago, MidlandRed said: Great model there. In the 1971 Toton photo, there looks to be a small M below the number and just above the data panel. Many thanks and indeed there does - in fact the data panel is partly obscuring it. She was one of the first locos we did and still happy with her now - difficult to amend livery details now she is weathered and varnished....but may get re-done one day. As for the colour of the roof? Dirty! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrushVeteran Posted February 15, 2020 Share Posted February 15, 2020 1 hour ago, Phil Bullock said: And this excellent Brush Veteran photo of her at Toton in 1971 was our reference... https://www.flickr.com/photos/59835095@N02/6309658116/in/album-72157627919964053/ Have just noticed the boiler variables - tanks gone, filler access steps plated, roof fillers unfaired - but she still has the bogie filler access steps present - unlike our model. Luckily theres some in the spares box.... Another one for the Crimes thread..... unless I can fix it before the knock on the door...... I'll re-scan this one with the new scanner Phil.......if not just to get rid of the bloody great hair on the front end! There are many more that need doing. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted February 15, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 15, 2020 That is very kind Grahame - many thanks. As you know we have used many of your photos from your Brush Veteran Flickr stream as the inspiration for our models. Luckily we missed the big hair off our model.... Just getting more of my own slides scanned from the late 70s/early 80s..... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold DaveF Posted February 15, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 15, 2020 Does this one help at all, taken by my Dad? He has it noted as being taken in March 1967. Normanton on Soar Class 44 D4 down empties March 67 J0838.jpg David 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted February 15, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 15, 2020 11 minutes ago, DaveF said: Does this one help at all, taken by my Dad? He has it noted as being taken in March 1967. Normanton on Soar Class 44 D4 down empties March 67 J0838.jpg David Thats another favourite photo Dave - thanks for bringing it to the party. We are so lucky to have collections like yours and Grahame's to transport us back to what was essentially a diesel operated railway with steam era infrastructure. Wish I had a camera with me on the day I saw her at Stourbridge Junction - between Christmas and New year 68. But was a day of freezing fog .... Compared to Grahame's 1971 photo she has yet to gain a data panel, and boiler filler footsteps on body side are not plated over - and is that a shed plate on her nose doors? We have been upgrading our models with added air control hoses - need to add to our D4 too.... Cheers 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold DaveF Posted February 15, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 15, 2020 (edited) Thinking of D4 in 1970 here are a couple of photos of it passing the brickworks at Hathern, taken at the same time by Dad and I standing next to each other. March 1970. HathernClass 44 D4 up up March 70 J2070 Hathern Class 44 D4 Great Gable up coal March 70 C206.jpg David Edited February 15, 2020 by DaveF 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted February 15, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 15, 2020 More fantastic photos Dave She has acquired a data panel .... but at the far end of the engine its hard to be sure whether the footsteps are plated or not. Always a special loco to me - great to see her preserved, she's coming to the Severn Valley this Spring Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidlandRed Posted February 15, 2020 Share Posted February 15, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, DaveF said: Does this one help at all, taken by my Dad? He has it noted as being taken in March 1967. Normanton on Soar Class 44 D4 down empties March 67 J0838.jpg David Great photo (and the 1970 ones) - I like particularly the abandoned wrecked wheelbarrow between the tracks! This photo reveals the small M for Midland Lines allocation below each number, and the amount of dust on the nose top shows how dirty these locos could get - the number also shows signs of having been cleaned in this photo. The roof looks blue in this photo, amongst the dirt and exhaust staining. Ive re-checked my spotting notes and the first time I saw it in Bfyp was at Bescot on 14/8/67 - as I said previously when the sides were notably very dirty indeed and just the numbers cleaned (it, and the other D1-10 Peaks were quite regular visitors to Washwood Heath and Saltley but at that time not so much at Bescot). Edited February 15, 2020 by MidlandRed 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted February 16, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 16, 2020 13 hours ago, Phil Bullock said: is that a shed plate on her nose doors? IMHO, not that that is worth much, but I reckon not, primarily because it seems the wrong shape, a tad too elongated. In Grahame's 1971 pic the black patch in David's shot is replaced with a smudgy yellow, slightly larger patch, suggesting to me a repair, maybe when the door swung/swang/swinged open against something and needed a welded repair. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Tomlinson Posted February 16, 2020 Author Share Posted February 16, 2020 (edited) A huge thanks to everyone who has responded, and a very interesting set of posts have resulted. The picture by Dave F's Dad at Normanton on Soar does show the line between the cab rainstrips to which I referred in my original question. It is too crisp and straight to be due to cleaning either by mop or washing plant I would have thought. However, as Phil notes, grotty gray seems to be standard issue for these locos, and so the application or not of a non-standard mid gray roof on shopping is something we may never know. Phil's weatherbeaten early 70's version of D4 seems to me to capture the whole thing to a tee, and I had forgotten about the bogie footsteps so thanks for the reminder. The modifications to these locos are a total nightmare IMHO, with the changes arising from the boiler isolation / removal not being applied consistently at all. These involve removal of the water tank (difficult to discern unless the picture is close in and well lit, plateing the body side footholds, and not least changes to the roof panelling above the boiler compartment. Most shots of the locos are on shed and so at ground level, in fact Dave F and his Dad have some of the few looking down views I have found. I'm doing a D10 in economy green with the funny grilles at the same time, and for this your shot at what looks like Sutton Bonington is invaluable. I've now removed two sets of plateing over bodyside footholds from Bachmann models, and this is something to be avoided if possible, as the glue can be quite tenacious and can make cleaning out the holes quite tricky. Doesn't help when your knife slips and you put a scratch in the side either! One book I've found very helpful is a small one with B&W pics by Booklaw/ Don Beecroft, in a series - it is no.37 "Toton - Early Diesels in the East Midlands", with a whole section on the 44's. There's a shot of D4 dated June 1969 still with bodyside footholds, so the plateing must have happened after this but prior to August 1971 in "Brush Veteran's" shot referred to above. The thing I'm less confident about concerns the roof panelling above the boiler compartment, included by Bachmann whatever. Photos do seem to show that this was changed quite early on most locos, as seen on the Normanton shot, with the exhaust port being removed (nearside), and the area around the safety valves? (offside) being plated over. This is the roof section immediately behind the water fillers, whose cut outs remained it would seem until the end, i.e. directly above and to the rear of the nameplate in the picture. Dave F's Hathern shot also shows this tidy up on the roof quite clearly, even though it is at the far end of the loco. Sadly this location now has a huge radio mast on the bank behind the loco, although the lovely building is still there, and in any case there's not much along here these days to photograph anyhow. Many thanks again to you all. John. Edited February 16, 2020 by John Tomlinson clarity 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidlandRed Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 (edited) You're welcome. I agree with the generally grotty roof colour (especially on locos used on coal trains - the white on class 27s around the cabs often almost disappeared) - however the roof cut out above the boiler on D4, to my eyes, shows blue on its back wall. In the 1970 shots, the roof looks quite clean and clearly blue. However covering the whole roof and cab tops (and even the sides) with a layer of dark grot, with the numbers clean would be in keeping with its appearance at times. Coincidentally, the set numbers plus the headlights seem to be the only areas of end cleaning on South Eastern's class 375s, which I encounter daily, currently. Edited February 16, 2020 by MidlandRed 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted February 16, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 16, 2020 I really enjoy threads like this ! The detail that emerges when like minds focus on the same loco never fails to amaze me... I suspect we will re-do D4 at some stage and address the issues on the roof... hadn't picked them up, thanks John! D4 was one of the first locos added to our stud, here she is earning her corn.... 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrushVeteran Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 On 15/02/2020 at 19:14, Phil Bullock said: That is very kind Grahame - many thanks. As you know we have used many of your photos from your Brush Veteran Flickr stream as the inspiration for our models. Luckily we missed the big hair off our model.... Just getting more of my own slides scanned from the late 70s/early 80s..... Hopefully better without the hairs! I am re-scanning most of my images on Flickr as the new scanner has better enhancement features. 6 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted February 16, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 16, 2020 That is stunning Grahame - thanks again 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted February 17, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 17, 2020 Any chance you can blow up the bit around the patch on the left hand door please Grahame, looks like a Royal Train socket? Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidlandRed Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 (edited) 21 hours ago, BrushVeteran said: Hopefully better without the hairs! I am re-scanning most of my images on Flickr as the new scanner has better enhancement features. That's a wonderfully clear scanned photo. The yellow patch on the left nose end door does seem to be a similar location to the oval black plate on the 1967 photo. The black plate does seem to have silver text so I do wonder if it is, indeed a 16A shed plate, not unknown on diesel locos around that time. If so, and it was removed, would they have repaired the bolt holes as a possible source of drafts/leaks, and patched painted the yellow? Mysterious! Edited February 17, 2020 by MidlandRed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 59 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said: Any chance you can blow up the bit around the patch on the left hand door please Grahame, looks like a Royal Train socket? Mike. Can't see anything that looks like a royal train socket, are you referring to the catch that holds the headcode disc up? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold stovepipe Posted February 17, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 17, 2020 I think EW is perhaps referring to the blebs below the central disc? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted February 17, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 17, 2020 3 hours ago, Titan said: Can't see anything that looks like a royal train socket, are you referring to the catch that holds the headcode disc up? Actually, revisiting with fresh eyes, you're right, initially it looked a tad low. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted February 17, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 17, 2020 A couple of other little extra details that show not everything is always uniform. The top disc must've spent most of it's time open judging by all the crud that's built up behind it. The RH disc is missing the 'top' half thus showing the bottom white part/lamp Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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