Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Brand new (Joined Yesterday - don't know where I'm going on here, so patince please guys, and thanks for the accept.)

Bachmann split chassis BR class 4 Driving wheels. I bought a mint looking, boxed, and second hand class 4. I've had it for a good while now, in storage,and apart from an initial motor test, and aware of it needing some work, it remained unused, but once I actually got round to some proper testing,I found the quartering was off by around 30 degrees, and three of the plastic centres were, as usual, coned out,catching the rods. I've since discovered this seems to be the norm with that particular range. So she was badly limping. During wheel removal for curing the usual plastic insert problems,I've discovered 3 or 4 destroyed motion mounting threads within the driving wheels. It looks like the previous owner had had a go, replaced the axles in the wrong order, then forced the screws where they shouldn't fit, and it also looks like he's glued some of the others into badly sloppy holes. 

Otherwise she's fine !!! haha.

The bodged screws weren't at all obvious until strip down.

I'd assumed it was simply a bad attempt at quartering(The wheels do twist quite easily in the hollow axles anyway) and once the plastic hubs were repaired, I thought she would be easily rectified. Due to the other issues, I now need a replacement driving wheel set, and probably 4 new "motion to wheelset" mounting screws.Problem is -  where to get a set from.Can't seem to find any. Peter's Spares only appear to have wheels on stock for the Non-Split Chassis versions. Any Ideas guys?

Thanks in Advance.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Gazbo and welcome to RM Web.

 

Try East Kent Models in Maidstone for Bachmann spares. He produced a list recently which showed wheel sets for the Class 4 4-6-0 as still available.

Phone number is 07780 681405 but only seems to be manned between 11 to 3.  

To access the website just type in East Kent Models and search for the Bachmann list.

 

Jim

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi there Gazbo,

Welcome. You say the wheels spin easily in the axles. If this is so then you do not have a Bachmann chassis but the original Mainline one. Or perhaps a Frankenstien version of the chassis of mixed parts.  Just to let you know all 3 chassis have the same fitting for the engine body and will fit the same body. The Bachmann chassis wheels have square posts that go into the axels not round pin type. So therefore they do not spin in the axles and the quartering is very easy to line up. But beware that there are 2 slightly different Bachmann chassis for this engine(this is only for the split chassis). The difference being that they increased the size of the axel in the later model from I believe 4mm to 4.5mm. The original Mainline axels are only 3mm in size. So you cannot just swap them out. I would use a micrometer and check the size of the axels to make sure you get the right wheel sets. One other way to check which chassis you have is if it says Hong Kong on the bottom plastic wheel retainer. This is I believe the earlier Bachmann chassis. Yes the warping of the plastic inserts for the wheel is more than common. I have 5 of the 4MT's and they all suffered from the same problem. The problem with the Mainline chassis that I think you have is that the wheel stubs that went into the axles were a pressure fit and while they were new and the plastic was able to grip them they worked fine. But as the plastic got older and expanded slightly due to age and oil the axles lost their grip and the wheels just spun in their holes on the axles. I personally think your best bet would be to buy a second hand chassis off Ebay and sort that one out if it had any issues.

Edited by cypherman
Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎15‎/‎02‎/‎2020 at 20:19, Gazbo said:

...Any ideas guys?...

Welcome to the madhouse.

 

Now, I will suggest taking the time to review. The simple fact about the Mainline, Replica and subsequent Bachmann split chassis steam loco mechanisms are that they are all short life, and especially so if run a lot, there's a pile of evidence here and elsewhere of owner experience to this effect. (Bachmann as good as acknowledged this before their range of split chassis product was discontinued, by selling complete replacement mechanisms.)

 

So a simple decision lies before you.

If you enjoy working on these older but typically good looking locos to keep them running, despite their limitations and no guarantee that all the spares you might require  will always be available off the shelf; then press on.

If you want locos that will run well long term with only minimal attention, mainly to lubrication; then put this one down to experience, and move on to the superior product now available.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • RMweb Gold

Once you have sorted out what chassis you actually have I could be able to help out with spares. 

 

Post up a pic of the chassis and ideally the wheels you have showing the stub ends where they go into the plastic axles.

 

3D printed axles and gear are available for the later square pin versions and Peter's Spares do the older round pin ones. Pretty certain I have some spare wheels .....

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 5 months later...
Posted (edited)

Hi Guys.

Firstly may I apologise for the longevity in replying. Now have a replacement laptop.(as is the case with half the country, Money is/has been tight !) So thanks all (Belatedly) for the great replies.

I fully understand the advice around - putting it down to experience. Yes, I could just park it in a siding, but My layout does not have one, it's a (once completed)near scale of the section of line which passed our area, until closure in the 70s. It's 2.5 m in length, single track, with DIY auto reverse delay timers installed. works a treat.

A. this loco was My main Birthday Present, (I chose it - she paid - so my fault I suppose) she's heartbroken that it was a duff runner, and she's typically lost the receipt.

B. the rest though is a mint and beautiful model.

C. I love tinkering, and have so far re-motored/repaired, re-airbrushed all my father's kindly donated old Hornby/Triang stuff, back to recon condition. Am really pleased with those. I'm more than capable of repairing, so long as I get the right parts, and it is worthwhile for me, as none of the loco's we own run full time. I rotate them, to keep them all mobile and maintained,(That's half the enjoyment for me). I'm on an extremely tight budget now, and would prefer to fix this otherwise lovely machine. it's more a case of - if I already own it, then it ought to work properly, or it will forever burn a hole in my soul ! Square axle thing sounds the right way to go. just stripped and measured the shafts etc. wheel stubs are (average) 5.01mm dia o/d. nylon axles are 3.82mm o/d. axle boxes are plus 5mm I/D. base plate states as "Bachmann HONG KONG" (see photos.) looks like a split chassis to me, but I'm not an authority. If I can - I need suitable 6 wheelset, with axles, and definitely - the screws to mount the con-rods to the wheels, as mine are stripped and presently locktighted-into also stripped threads in the wheels. (stripped by the previous savage, after replacing the wheels in the wrong order !) if the gentleman at Redgate is still listening, and may have something suitable - Please let me know. Thanks again all

 

 

1.jpg

4.jpg

5.jpg

Edited by Gazbo
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Gazbo,

Yes that's the early Bachmann chassis. So it will have the square pegs for the wheels unlike the original Mainline engine which had pins. As you have said it sounds like some one has just thrown the wheels back on and forced them to fit. The wheels should only fit in 4 different positions at 90 degrees in each axel due to the square pegs. There should be no rotary movement of the wheels on the axles. Unless the previous owner has managed wear out either the axel or hole, or even both. If I remember correctly the valve gear/conrods  in held in by small pins and not screws as a pressure fit and that is why you might think they are stripped. Unfortunately all of mine are boxed away so I cannot be any more exact over this engine.

I personally believe the only way to go with this loco is to get another chassis due to the lack of replacement axles to replace your damaged ones. 

I you do get another chassis you can remove the plastic inserts with the wheels insitu. That's the way i did it. Just used a very sharp blade to cut them out. Then re-glued the wheel weights back in the right positions. Quick bit of black paint and you can hardly notice the plastic inserts are missing.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Gazbo,

Forget what I just said about no replacement axles. Check these people out. Looks like you can get plastic printed axles for the 4mt from them.

https://www.shapeways.com/product/3VD7BFB68/Bachmann-mainline-oo-axles-large-gear

and here is his description of how he fitted them to the loco.

https://jamestrainparts.com/2019/01/28/Bachmann-mainline-replica-railways-split-chassis-axel-repairs/

Edited by cypherman
  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Thankyou cypherman.

I think this may well be a frankenstein setup though.

There are definitely 2 pins, and 4 screws, whereby the screws were supposed to be into the forward and rearward wheels, and the pins into the centre set. not sure how, but it looks like they "Mis-arranged the wheels, and they fitted pins to threaded holes, and then ended up with screws, that wouldn't go into the remaining pinholes.Does that make sense?  but they are definitely screws, as the remainder of the threads are still present. Not really bothered about that now though, as long as I can get a replacement set of wheels, axles and whatever is required to affix the link rods to them (Preferably in the right order ! haha). I'll have a look at the links you provided. Many thanks. Gaz.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Gaz,

To be honest I think your best bet would be a replacement chassis. Try and get the one that says China on the bottom and not Hong Kong if you can. Definitely do not get the Mainline one.

Edited by cypherman
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • RMweb Gold
17 hours ago, Gazbo said:

if the gentleman at Redgate is still listening, and may have something suitable - Please let me know. 

 

Not sure the wife would agree with the Gentleman, but sorry in any case, I ahve used my spare chassis to repair someone else's loco in the meantime.

 

As has been said you can get 3d printed axles from Shapeways. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Gaz

I have just bought some of the centre gears and axles from Shapeways, but not ordered replacement axles. The quality of the replacement seems very good but i was shocked at the price - quote on one site at E9.78 but worked out at £41 for 3. The price for 3 sets of axles looked similar. Not yet fitted as i am sorting out the issues of pickups on the Bachman split Chassis Standard Class 4's - I have five to deal with, some posted on a well known auction site as 'Good runner'?

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Cheers guys.

I'm thinking now - I'm going to look out for a replacement chassis in working order.

just had another look at this one, and as I re-fitted it all together,(So as not to lose the chassis to body screws etc , it all fell apart (screws fall straight out of the drivers, losing the motion etc). All attempts to rebuild securely fails miserably.

Wasted a day just trying to make it stay in one piece. So.....

if I can find a decent, non-Hong-Kong Bachmann unit.....£££

So she's parked for now, back in the loco drawer. Back together-ish - as long as no-one touches it !

Thanks for all the advice.

Gaz.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • RMweb Gold
Posted (edited)

Tbh just put it on ebay.

They arent worth fixing unless its for sentimental reasons.

 

ive fixed tons of these over the years, but today it depends on the effort you want to put in...  

 

The reason some have a pin and some have a screw, is because Mainline used pins, Bachmann later used screws. My guess is someones tried swapping spare wheels about previously. The mainline ones on 75001 / 75006 fared better, and are dumped cheaply, and so are a good source for Bachmann wheel repairs.

BE85CE53-783E-4955-A603-3978CAD11DFA.jpeg.496c194a4369578e2448f6303db59a0b.jpeg

The leading axle is a Mainline wheel using pins, the rest are Bachmann using screws to holding the rods... you can tell as Mainline wheels not only have pins for holding the rods, they are shiny steel tyres, Bachmann tyres are more dull.

 

AC316112-FD2D-409C-B2A3-CB48AFE106D1.jpeg.bf166e797abb86ea296fdd31a725ed73.jpeg

Close up mainline “pin”, vs Bachmann “screw” for the rods.
 

axles..

1. you could make new axles to replace the split nylon ones using a piece of 4mm plastic (abs) rod (c£3 on ebay or b&q), cut to 8.1mm length, and drill 2mm hole into the ends then push the wheels on.

00B33CD8-A82E-4598-9476-DB990DB5807F.jpeg.998c80a8c42d115c33d2efb4c7dbd776.jpeg

 

2. if you want to try to fix the split axles, put it in a vice, squirt gorilla glue into the ends, leave it overnight and drill a piercing hole either side to refit the wheels, whilst still in the vice.
 

3. Peters spares offer replacements of the new (c2008) tooling wheels, you could swap the none-geared wheels leaving just one axle to fix.


for the wheels,

 

1. You can also remove the plastic wheel insert and just run it with the existing metal wheels

or

2. try soaking the plastic centres in warm water and regluing it.

3. Use Mainline 43xx or Manor wheels. (See below).

 

But as spares, its worth £20-25 on ebay, and you could pick up a second hand Hornby or Bachmann one for £60-80, latest tooling, new chassis design etc.. theres a new one for sale at Hereford models for new £69 currently, if buying the Hornby one, stay away from 75071.. its pony truck has been known to corrode, but I would swap the pony Bachmann pony wheels you have, Hornbys arent the best looking.

 

i should add, contrary to comments above, the 4MT was only upgraded by Bachmann, its axles are round, not square pegged, this only started with the V1/V3 tank in c1992 and continued thereafter. Thus the axles do not need peg holes nor need to sit inside the wheel, a 2mm hole will suffice for the wheel stub, sat also 2mm deep into the axle.

See belowAFA510C5-4F4F-4C25-A564-899CE6E1C6B3.jpeg.447b6fda38bbb13966ab0eb3696e6397.jpeg


the wheels of the 4MT is compatible (but balance weights are different) to  the 43xx and Manor... see below, note the Manor has Mainline “pins” (right two wheels) where as the 4MT (left) has Bachmann screws. 

image.jpg.924479cfad0ad4507e826ad03559007a.jpg

I mention this because the Mainline 43xx is prone to chassis rot, making the wheels abundantly available, 5’8 scale with 2mm round stubs on the rear, same width axles, the wheel centres aren't known for bulging, so make a viable alternative... as for the rest, the GWR crosshead / connecting rod could also be useful on upgrading a Hornby /Dapol County or Airfix prairie, which has a horrible plastic one, and a 43xx pony truck is a good replacement for the rubbish Heljan 47xx pony truck.

Edited by adb968008
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • RMweb Gold
Posted (edited)
On 27/07/2020 at 20:41, Gazbo said:

98CF1714-617B-4E08-8C82-D834C26785B3.jpeg.14699b6cd6ba51daf975a24031faf18c.jpeg

 

 

One last point, looking at your chassis pictures above...

 

Can you check your cylinder slide bars, (yellow) the piston rod sits inside a 2 part piece of slide bars, one either side of the rod, holding it in place. One one of your pictures I cannot see if it is present on both sides of the lower cylinder in the image above, and the piston does look to be bowing out.. if this piece is missing your going to have no end of critical issues.

 

of secondary importance, your a spacer missing too, (red) between the front and middle driver, separating the two halves of the chassis plates, which the baseplate screw would go into.

Edited by adb968008
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi all,

adb968008 I have to disagree with you on the square peg axles. All my Bachman 4mt's have the square axle fitting holes. I have 5. All have had their plastic wheel inserts removed and new balance weights glued in place and wheels repainted. But I must admit they are all the later China made chassis blocks. Something else you have not mentioned is that the axle diameter is larger for the China made chassis. Probably to fit the new square axle peg. So if you put an older wheel/axle into a newer chassis it will be very loose. And visa versa trying to put a new wheel set up in an older chassis it will not fit. Both sets of axles are slightly bigger diameter than the Mainline ones. My information comes directly from Bachmann's service department when I was trying to get spare wheels and inserts  for these engines. But found out several years ago that they are no longer made or stored by Bachmann . Hence the reason why I said go for the China made chassis rather than the Hong Kong one.

Edited by cypherman
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • RMweb Gold
Posted (edited)
On 30/07/2020 at 14:32, cypherman said:

Hi all,

adb968008 I have to disagree with you on the square peg axles. All my Bachman 4mt's have the square axle fitting holes. I have 5. . My information comes directly from Bachmann's service

I think your wrong on 75020.

This is the revised service sheet..for the latter ones of the older tooling.

http://service.Bachmann.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/31-102.pdf

 

My pictures above used to be 75020, and I bought nigh on 30 years ago... I once had a whole 3 figure limited edition renumbered for a shop I ran, and given the propensity to “wobble” and the piston slider to come off.. I think ive got enough experience of fixing the returns...

 

Maybe your confusing the even earlier releases.. 75019/75037 which featured can motors, but were not made under Bachmanns name .. Replica had spare chassis’s of these and in the early days were useful substitutes, before Bachmann joined the “spare chassis” game for upgrading old Mainline models... theres were cheaper too.. trade price for the whole loco, iirc the chassis was c£10.. i’m not 100% but these may have had thinner axles, but they werent as strong as the Bachmann release, but their motor was a can, not a Mainline pod, and often used on early broken Bachmann 4MTs (as there spares dept wasn't that good in the early days).

 

I should add, Mainline baseplates won’t fit either, the Mainline pod motor sat over the last axle, Bachmann moved it to the centre axle, and patched the baseplate tooling For the gearing (visible in the op’s post).


The later releases on the older tooling like 75027/75075 etc c1999-2003 had revised wheels (which were darkened metal) and metal slide bars, an upgrade to make it better fit next to the std 5MT released around that time, but the OP has 75020 in front of him which is older and a 4mm axle is possible to fit, the old axle is 3.86mm, and his like one of mine.. its wheels have bubbled.. the 1999 era ones dont seem as affected.. yet.

 

you dont have to believe me.. just look at the picture in front of you.. no squares... the rod pin is threaded, wheels silvered, not dark and the axle is 3.86mm diameter.. therefore its not made by Mainline, and if your saying its not Bachmann’s, its definitely not Hornby's then whose is it ?

 

8E70049C-1123-4647-885C-4735C0A52A40.jpeg
 

I would be interested to see a 4MT 75xxx wheelset with square pegs.. especially if its shiny steel, not darkened metal.

Edited by adb968008
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi adb968008,

I can only go on the engines I have. I do not have 75020 as I know I do not have any double chimney 4mt's. Unfortunately the only 4mt I have access to at the moment is my Mainline test bed engine. As my others are all packed away with all my other engines. If I can find one of them I will show you the wheels. As to the blackened wheels I think 2 or 3 of them have them. One thing though is that I cannot with hand on heart say whether any of them have come with their original chassis. Just that they all had the plastic wheel centres warped and removed by me. 

Edited by cypherman
Link to post
Share on other sites

Many years ago, probably over 35 years ago we "Solved" the Mainline round axle problem by removing the motors and using Hornby tender drive units to push the locos along.  One side of the loco chassis was connected to a Hornby tender drive draw bar which connected to an absolutely standard Hornby Tender.  The 4MT also had the cab modified and the Hornby tender modified from a BR1G to a BR1B etc high side version.  I think we also changed the rear driving wheels for non traction tyre  wheels. This was prior to Mazak Rot.    The point was we could not stop the  on the drive axle  shifting.  Some of the  locos are still runners though not the 4MT as the slide bars disintegrated, The GW locos fared better but are no longer used. At least one had a stripped crank pin and was drilled and tapped 10 BA (?) and a bolt with a filed down head fitted.  One "Manor" had the axle holes bushed and Romford wheels fitted.   This was in the days when nothing better was available RTR.

The Square axle end version is better but they suffer poor axle bearing pick up causing axle end heating and axle end softening so the wheels fall off. I added pickups between chassis and wheel backs and the old thing is still running so it must have worked.  My latest plot with round axle Bachmann  J72 is to  drill out the wheel boss from the outside to lose the pip and then drill right through the axle and press in a steel rod slightly oversize so its a good fit, making absolutely sure the quartering is spot on.  I haven't plucked up courage to commence yet...

A new chassis would be easier but spending money is against my principles.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • RMweb Gold
Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

Many years ago, probably over 35 years ago we "Solved" the Mainline round axle problem by removing the motors and using Hornby tender drive units to push the locos along.  One side of the loco chassis was connected to a Hornby tender drive draw bar which connected to an absolutely standard Hornby Tender.  The 4MT also had the cab modified and the Hornby tender modified from a BR1G to a BR1B etc high side version.  I think we also changed the rear driving wheels for non traction tyre  wheels. This was prior to Mazak Rot.    The point was we could not stop the  on the drive axle  shifting.  Some of the  locos are still runners though not the 4MT as the slide bars disintegrated, The GW locos fared better but are no longer used. At least one had a stripped crank pin and was drilled and tapped 10 BA (?) and a bolt with a filed down head fitted.  One "Manor" had the axle holes bushed and Romford wheels fitted.   This was in the days when nothing better was available RTR.

The Square axle end version is better but they suffer poor axle bearing pick up causing axle end heating and axle end softening so the wheels fall off. I added pickups between chassis and wheel backs and the old thing is still running so it must have worked.  My latest plot with round axle Bachmann  J72 is to  drill out the wheel boss from the outside to lose the pip and then drill right through the axle and press in a steel rod slightly oversize so its a good fit, making absolutely sure the quartering is spot on.  I haven't plucked up courage to commence yet...

A new chassis would be easier but spending money is against my principles.

 

 

you could use plastic abs rod cut & drilled, only a few quid on ebay.
peters spare sell axles for both Mainline and Bachmann J72

 

https://www.petersspares.com/peters-spares-ps27-mainline-replacement-axle-set-j72.ir


https://www.petersspares.com/peters-spares-ps31-Bachmann-replacement-axle-set-03-04-shunter-and-j72-0-6-0.ir

 

Ive not tried either myself though on the J72, but I have used them on class 03’s.

 

Edited by adb968008
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi all,

I have a set of axles for my Mainline testbed 4mt. Have not tried them yet as the repair with industrial strength superglue is still holding well.

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, cypherman said:

Hi melmerby,

In one of my earlier posts I put the link to the Shapeways axles.

You did indeed, missed that one.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 28/07/2020 at 16:34, Geoff Lewis said:

Hi Gaz

I have just bought some of the centre gears and axles from Shapeways, but not ordered replacement axles. The quality of the replacement seems very good but i was shocked at the price - quote on one site at E9.78 but worked out at £41 for 3. The price for 3 sets of axles looked similar. ...

 Has anyone any experience of running the Shapeways gears?    

How do you guys ensure the wheels are "Quartered"  correctly before pressing the wheels on? 

Is there a jig available or is it a question of making one?   I have some ideas for a jig but don't necessarily want to re invent the wheel.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.