When did the Stars begin receiving 4000 gallon tenders?

[CCGWR]

Hi Everyone,

 

I am asking to know if anyone knows a list as to when each Star class received a Collett 4000 Gallon tender. I understand they started receiving them in the mid 1930s. Trying to nail down one that had received one by 1942 with inside steam pipes. 4021, 'British Monarch' would be ideal (because of allocation at the time). I am keen renumbering/naming 4013 which is currently very cheap on Kernows.

 

Connor

Edited February 15, 2020 by CCGWR
Added extra info

[Miss Prism]

8 hours ago, CCGWR said:

I am asking to know if anyone knows a list as to when each Star class received a Collett 4000 Gallon tender.

 

I don't know of any such list. Stars got fitted with 4000g tenders from 1937. I guess the move from Churchward 3500g to Collett 4000g was probably substantially complete by the beginning of WWII, the Churchward units being redeployed principally to the 'new' Granges.

 

(Stars rebuilt as Castles got 4000g tenders earlier than 1937.) 

 

Edited February 16, 2020 by Miss Prism

[DCB]

As locomotives and tenders were ordered together there were not very many new tenders built between about 1923 and 1936 other than with Kings, Castles and Halls.  I can only think of 40, two batches of 2251, one in 1930, one 1934/6. the Granges and Manors were considered to be rebuilds and for accountancy reasons retained their original tenders.  Even assuming all the new tenders were 4000 gallon there were not a lot to go around once the Castles and Halls received 4000 gallon.  From 1938 the 38XX were in production presumably with 4000 gallon tenders then more batches of 2251 all of which would have had older smaller tenders fitted before entering service.  Eventually the GW presumably felt it had enough 4000 gallon tenders and changed to the 3000 gallon flat bottom 2251 style tenders, some of which found their way to Bulldogs for some reason. So logically the period 1938 -42 would have seen Stars losing Churchward 3500 gallon tenders and getting brand new 4000 gallon Colletts in their place.  They were doing around 80K miles between overhauls, 18/20 months?

[Wenrash]

Buy a copy of "Great Western Star Class Locomotives" by Laurance Watters. There are some photographs that fit your prescription, though not 4021 when it has a 4000 gal tender. I notice Mr Watters quotes the tender numbers in some of the photographs. I guess he is reading the late Bill Peto's work which I think is in the Great Western Society Archives.  How keen are you? The "Engine History Sheet's" are in TNA Kew. This will tell what tender was on which locomotive by date. This is where Mr Peto got his information from.

[CCGWR]

Thanks for that, yes I have ordered it. I basically just need one that would have been fitted with a 4000 gallon tender but retained inside steam pipes until 1948.

I will study the book once it arrives.

 

Connor

[Miss Prism]

50 minutes ago, CCGWR said:

I basically just need one that would have been fitted with a 4000 gallon tender but retained inside steam pipes until 1948.

 

This can be obtained quite easily by taking the 'inverse' of the outside pipe fitting list and removing the locos withdrawn before 1948, i.e.:

 

4012
4013
4023
4025
4028
4029
4030

 

[M.I.B]

And to double check ( without having to go to Kew) take Miss Prism's list above and input each of them into the BR Database:

 

http://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=locodata&id=4707&type=S&loco=4707

 

it's a bit hit and miss:  not all tender allocation records are on there, and some stop at Nationalization.  Some only start at Nationalization.  Worth a try tho.

Edited February 19, 2020 by M.I.B
spellink

[Coach bogie]

The earliest example, I am aware of is 4063 Bath Abbey. It was in Swindon in 1931 and returned to traffic coupled to a Collett 4,000 gallon tender.

 

4021 and  4013 have different front ends. If you are going for 4013 as a basis 4012 and 4017 lasted until 1949 without having received outside steam pipes and was running with a 4,000 Collett tender postwar.

 

Be careful with the Monarch batches. All the surviving Monarchs, bar 4021 ran nameless from the early 1940's.

 

Mike Wiltshire

Edited February 23, 2020 by Coach bogie

[Miss Prism]

Thanks Mike. Seems to be confirmed by this pic at Exeter. However, by August 1935, it has reverted to a 3500g.

 

 

 

[Coppercap]

9 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Thanks Mike. Seems to be confirmed by this pic at Exeter. However, by August 1935, it has reverted to a 3500g.

 

 

 

I'm often dubious about the dates (and locations) of some of those images. The "c.1930" shot shows Bath Abbey with plated over "porthole" cab windows, or a new cab front sheet), yet in the "1935" image she now has "portholes"!

There's plenty of book too, that have clearly incorrect dates and even locations.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Coppercap

[Miss Prism]

12 minutes ago, Coppercap said:

I'm often dubious about the dates (and locations) of some of those images. The "c.1930" shot shows Bath Abbey with plated over "porthole" cab windows, or a new cab front sheet), yet in the "1935" image she now has "portholes"!

 

The tender in the 'c1930' shot is carrying pre-1934 insignia, so appears to confirm it is pre-1937 (the normally accepted 4000g introduction date for the Stars).  I agree something doesn't add up on the '1935' pic, and I've never known a porthole cab sheet retrofit, so maybe '1935' should be 1925.

 

[Coppercap]

12 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

The tender in the 'c1930' shot is carrying pre-1934 insignia, so appears to confirm it is pre-1937 (the normally accepted 4000g introduction date for the Stars).  I agree something doesn't add up on the '1935' pic, and I've never known a porthole cab sheet retrofit, so maybe '1935' should be 1925.

 

Yes, and in the "1935" shot, the train is made up of quite old stock (old van and clerestories), so 1925 might be more likely year.

[Miss Prism]

Yes, and it unlikely all the stock in the '1935' pic would still have bogie footboards.

 

[Miss Prism]

deleted duplicate post

 

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by Miss Prism

[JimC]

On 17/02/2020 at 00:41, DavidCBroad said:

As locomotives and tenders were ordered together there were not very many new tenders built between about 1923 and 1936 other than with Kings, Castles and Halls. 

There's a note in the Tender drawings register against Lot A117 (53 flush bottom 4,000 gallon tenders built 1928-30) booked against Halls saying "For LOT 254 80 "Saint Martin" Class (4900-4979). Note in Red "These tenders [illegible] be used on 4000, "Castle" & 4700 classes and 53 tenders of 3,500 gallon capacity taken from these engines will be used on 4900 class engines with 27 more tenders built on Lot A118.". 53 is an interesting number. About that date there were 9 47s, plus the Bear in Castle form, 20 new Castles (lot 234, 4093 on got 4,000 gallon tenders from lot A113) and 73 Stars (some converted to Castles) .

 

Similarly Lot A124 (20 flush bottom 4,000 gallon tenders built  is booked against the 9300s, with a note saying these tenders were used behind Halls, and the 93s given displaced 3,500 gallon tenders.

[CCGWR]

Thanks again, everyone.

 

I can basically get away with the ones you all mentioned from 4000-4020 (they have the same front end 'box' over the inside cylinders, anything after had a different design (4012 and 4017 were allocated to Newton Abbot (bit far) and Swindon (similar reason) respectively), so some other options would be good. Obviously, I know about the ones built into Castles and some were withdrawn, have to weed those out. One thing that would give me a little more flexibility would be the ability to add elbow steam pipes, but I can't find any. Does anyone know where to find them or how to make them?

 

Connor

Edited March 10, 2020 by CCGWR

[rprodgers]

Looking the other way what is the most accurate 3500 gallon Churchward tender if I wished to replace a 4000 on a Star?

 

I am assuming most of the 3500 available are later ones.

[M.I.B]

All depends how accurate you want to be, and also on your modelling skills.

 

I take it that your base model Star is a very recent Hornby - St Pat or British Monarch etc.

 

One option is to fit a 3500 top to the existing 4000 chassis.  Not a straight swap for earlier tender tops, but it does mean that you retain the DCC wires and sockets etc that live in the Star tender.

 

The 3500 tops on current Halls such as the Adderley Hall model look to be a direct swap for the 4000s - two screws between the second and third axles and a third on the draw bar - both are identical.    If you get the whole tender from Adderely Hall then it's super simple - unscrew the draw bar and unplug the DCC socket.

[rprodgers]

Thanks M.I.B  the more I read about the 3500 gallon tenders on the forum the more it confuses me....with longer sides , rivets etc 

 

Yes the Star I have is one of the more recent ones Knight of St Pat's

[M.I.B]

I'm not sure which of the 3500 tenders' Diagram Numbers  best matches the current Hornby offering.  (Adderley Hall etc)

 

I have a couple here if  you need photos .

[JimC]

19 hours ago, rprodgers said:

Looking the other way what is the most accurate 3500 gallon Churchward tender if I wished to replace a 4000 on a Star?

I'm not sure that question has a reasonable answer. You can certainly identify a given Star with a given tender at a given date, but I don't think you can say that any particular variation was especially associated with the class over another. Possibly the high sided type, but there were never huge numbers of those. Then to make matters more complicated there were a good number of Swindon works bitsas, where later style frames were put under earlier style tanks and so on. Miss Prism and I were recently musing over tender no 1560, which is conventionally called a Dean 4,000 gallon and was built in 1903 to run with Saint prototype no 98 (so under Churchward). However in the early 1930s it got a major rebuild, and was fitted with 1931 style 'Collett' frames and a "Collett" style wrap around fender, but retained handrails and the like to the original style.

[Coach bogie]

16 hours ago, M.I.B said:

The 3500 tops on current Halls such as the Adderley Hall model look to be a direct swap for the 4000s - two screws between the second and third axles and a third on the draw bar - both are identical.    If you get the whole tender from Adderely Hall then it's super simple - unscrew the draw bar and unplug the DCC socket.

 

I made a straight swop with the Railroad Hall, though I replaced the moulded handrails with wire and knobs.

 

 

You can also use the higher mid height Collett tender behind some of the Granges.

 

 

Rails are selling off 4013 for £89.50

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/products/29977/Hornby-r3455-oo-gauge-knight-of-st-patrick-gwr-green-4000-star-class-4-6-0-steam-locomotive-no-4013?utm_source=Mailing+List&utm_campaign=915309a05d-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2020_03_16_10_10&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_74d01bc2ed-915309a05d-5494973

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

[CCGWR]

Basically, I am happy with the 4000g tender because I like the look of the Stars with a 4000g Collett tender, hence why I bought it (4013). As I mentioned, my issue now is steam pipes, not tenders. 4004 and 4007 would be the ideals and as far as I know I have photos (in L. Watters book) of them both in the 1940s with 4000g tenders but (to give me flexibility in time bracket) have elbow steam pipes.

 

Connor

[M.I.B]

Straight pipes are easy to add from Evergreen tube and sheet.    Sadly I don't know of a way of making elbow equivalents from scratch.

[M.I.B]