Branch line serving St Catherines and Londaon Docks

[jim.snowdon]

Correct - it's Volume 1 that is needed. I didn't know there was a volume 2, having bought my copy purely because it covered a large chunk of the railway for whose rolling stock I had responsibility. 

 

Jim

[PenrithBeacon]

Vol 1 wasn't on display for sale, Vol 3 was though

[Barcaldinegoods]

Hi all, pedantic point I know but just for the record it's St Katherine (singular) Docks (plural). Always my understanding & just checked OS maps old & new just to be sure!

Chris. 

[jointline]

On 18/02/2020 at 11:27, jim.snowdon said:

The branch was quite comprehensively covered in "Great Eastern in Town and Country", which Wild Swan Irwell Press published a while back in 1990. It is probably out of print now but I have a copy and will update with the ISBN details shortly its full details are -

 

ISBN 1 871608 16 3

Publisher - Irwell Press, 1990

Author - Chris Hawkins

Title - as above.

 

Jim

Have just got a copy,  but it doesn't actually give any pictures of either the goods depot or the line in the London Docks, accessible only by wagon turntables.   If anybody ever finds any I should be delighted to hear about it.  The pictures which it does give are also in the Middleton Press books about the area and some others.

Having said that it is a good read, and worth buying if you can pick up a copy cheaply.  (I just paid £14 including postage). 

[ejstubbs]

On 17/02/2020 at 09:58, Nearholmer said:

Honest JP, it’s really clear in reality. A series of big yellow-brick 18890s blocks, in a ‘threepenny bit’ curve along where the viaduct was ........ they are clearly visible on the 1890s 1:1056 map, and apart from one in the middle that I think went in the blitz, they are still there.

 

A good way to see this kind of thing is using the "Explore georeferenced maps" function of the NLS maps web site.  The area in question is here: https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18&lat=51.51005&lon=-0.06891&layers=168&b=4  You use the "Change transparency of overlay" slider in the control panel on the left to fade between the old map and your choice new maps or aerial views selected from the "Background map" drop-down menu.

Edited April 22, 2020 by ejstubbs

[Nearholmer]

More functionality in there than I realised!

 

Has this been mentioned https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW018321 

 

Its not up to their highest quality, but it is still a very good image of the goods depot.

 

This one is a bit clearer. If you sign-up, you can view it in full hi-res. https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW000633 

 

If you look at Haydon Square Goods Depot as well, you can see inside the top storey - presumably the roof was lost to an incendiary bomb during the war; Commercial Road Goods Depot is very clear too.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Pacific231G]

Looking at the Britain from Above images and the maps it is somewhat incredible that St. Katherine Docks never did have a rail connection either from the GER goods station or more directly. I wonder whether the local topography simply got in the way,

 

Geoff Ashdown's excellent EM Tower Pier layout has a pair of  goods lines going to St. Katherine Docks (they actually go to a couple of sidings cunningly hidden under a hinged section of road alongide the terminus.) Since there never was a rail connection to the Docks and since most of the buildings within the docks themselves still exist- albeit repurposed- it might be fun to create   St. Katherine Docks yard and part of the docks.

Though there never were railways directly serving St. Katherine Docks, there was track on the quays of the equally cramped Sutton Harbour in Plymouth. For the LSWR this involved a straightish run onto the North Quay from Plymouth Friary and a rather less straight line onto that Quay from the GWR's Sutton Harbour Branch-  then wagon turntables accessing Sutton Wharf, Sutton Jetty and Vauxhall Quay- might offer some suggestions  

 

 

Sutton Harbour Plymouth

 

 

St. Katherine Docks London (not to quite the same scale) 

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by Pacific231G

[Nearholmer]

Were these docks too small for ‘railway age’ ships, and used largely by barges and lighters?

[jim.snowdon]

38 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Were these docks too small for ‘railway age’ ships, and used largely by barges and lighters?

I think a clue as to that being the case is the way the the warehouses come right to the edge of the docks. That would suggest that the only means for lifting cargo into them would have been the hydraulic jigger cranes built onto the warehouse walls in line with the loading doors on each floor.These cranes have a relatively short reach, sufficient to service a Thames lighter but not, probably, a sea going steamship. I wouldn't like to be certain as regards sailing ships. They go back to 1828, but were always hampered by not being able to handle larger ships.

 

Jim

[jim.snowdon]

38 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Were these docks too small for ‘railway age’ ships, and used largely by barges and lighters?

I think a clue as to that being the case is the way the the warehouses come right to the edge of the docks. That would suggest that the only means for lifting cargo into them would have been the hydraulic jigger cranes built onto the warehouse walls in line with the loading doors on each floor.These cranes have a relatively short reach, sufficient to service a Thames lighter but not, probably, a sea going steamship. I wouldn't like to be certain as regards sailing ships. They go back to 1828, but were always hampered by not being able to handle larger ships.

 

Jim

[Pacific231G]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Were these docks too small for ‘railway age’ ships, and used largely by barges and lighters?

Judging by the Britian from Above photos that does seem to have been the case. There were larger vessels on the riverside wharves in front of St. K and it's worth remembeing that Brentford Docks were all lighter and bage only. 

[phil_sutters]

London's Lost Riverscape, by Chris Ellmers and Alex Werner, says of St. Katherine Dock 'The entrance lock was 180 ft long and 45 ft wide. By the 1930s only the General Steam Navigation Co's steamers regularly used this dock. ....... ' list of commodities - ' These cargoes were mainly shipped into the dock via barges and lighters, The warehouses surrounding the eastern basin were destroyed by an air raid in 1940 and those around the western basin were pulled down to make way for redevelopment in the 1970s and early 1980s. The dock closed in 1968. Only 'l' warehouse with the bell tower (1858 - 60) and the dockmaster's house (c 1830) to the east of the dock entrance, remain standing today. The dock entrance was reconstructed in 1957.' The warehouse can be seen in all three photos, the entrance lock in the middle one and the dockmaster's house to the right of the dock  entrance in the third photo. The dock is now a marina for leisure craft from small dinghies through to sizeable gin palaces.

[phil_sutters]

St Saviour's Dock in Bermondsey might be a location for a south bank fictional goods branch, running north out of Bricklayers Arms Goods Depot, but you would have to approach the warehouses from the back as they off loaded from the lighters directly into the warehouses. There was little or no access at ground level. The walkway seen here is a more recent addition. This is a fairly recent picture, but it shows the closeness of the warehouses to the water and the type of cranes used. If you want a 3-bedroom flat in this development there is one currently on the market for £1,8 million. It is not one I own, I hasten to add.

Further downstream a branch did run off the South London line north of the Old Kent Road station, north-eastwards to the Greenland and South Docks.

Edited April 22, 2020 by phil_sutters
Additional info

[Nearholmer]

The reason I mentioned lighters and barges is that, to a large extent, they provided the distribution system from the larger docks that obviated the need for rail transport.

 

Schooner’s thread looks and the E&WI Docks, which were well connected by rail because they served not only the riverside (by barge etc) but a deeper hinterland by rail.

 

The branch that Phil mentions south of the river was to Deptford wharf, and only fortuitously served Greenland Dock - the later Surrey Docks weren’t properly rail served.

 

Brentford is interesting - traffic going in all directions by river, canal and rail ....... masses of inefficient double-handling!

[Pacific231G]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

The reason I mentioned lighters and barges is that, to a large extent, they provided the distribution system from the larger docks that obviated the need for rail transport.

 

Schooner’s thread looks and the E&WI Docks, which were well connected by rail because they served not only the riverside (by barge etc) but a deeper hinterland by rail.

 

The branch that Phil mentions south of the river was to Deptford wharf, and only fortuitously served Greenland Dock - the later Surrey Docks weren’t properly rail served.

 

Brentford is interesting - traffic going in all directions by river, canal and rail ....... masses of inefficient double-handling!

I'm not so sure. Most general cargo was unloaded from ships to adjoining warehouses and from there broken down into separate loads for distribution and loaded into railway wagons. While the dock cranes were unloading cargo on to the quayside, barges could be loaded directly from the ship on the other side using its own gear and then sent up river to docks like  Brentford (I assume customs clearance could be handled at Brentford).For the GWR at Brentford that would avoid a lot of trip working from various PLA docks through London, presumably via the widened lines (at night?)  Instead, a good proportion of the cargo for their customers could be brought up river by barge and concentrated in their own warehouses for onward distribution. I'd hazard a guess that the journey by barge from the London docks to Brentford would on average take a lot less time than trip working a cut of wagons across London to whichever marshalling yard on the GW main line it would be shunted into a train for onward distribution.

[Nearholmer]

4 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

barges could be loaded directly from the ship on the other side using its own gear and then sent up river to docks like  Brentford

 

Or, St Katherine, which is what I was trying to say....... one didn’t need to use rail from the big docks to St K, because lighters did the job.

 

I’m guessing that St K took-in raw materials for the very many small manufacturers that were based just outside the City, plus foodstuffs, and possibly took-out manufactured goods.

 

It probably had a small hinterland, so didn’t need much in the way of onward rail transport, and anything to be exported that began its journey by rail would be better routed direct to a big dock, avoiding a lighter trip.

 

Whatever the detail, the amount of handling and in-line-storage in ‘classic logistics’ never ceases to amaze me, and it all had to be paid for in the final price of the goods/product ....... it’s no wonder that containerisation and JIT came into being!

[jointline]

4 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

I'm not so sure. Most general cargo was unloaded from ships to adjoining warehouses and from there broken down into separate loads for distribution and loaded into railway wagons. While the dock cranes were unloading cargo on to the quayside, barges could be loaded directly from the ship on the other side using its own gear and then sent up river to docks like  Brentford (I assume customs clearance could be handled at Brentford).For the GWR at Brentford that would avoid a lot of trip working from various PLA docks through London, presumably via the widened lines (at night?)  Instead, a good proportion of the cargo for their customers could be brought up river by barge and concentrated in their own warehouses for onward distribution. I'd hazard a guess that the journey by barge from the London docks to Brentford would on average take a lot less time than trip working a cut of wagons across London to whichever marshalling yard on the GW main line it would be shunted into a train for onward distribution.

The whole question of goods/warehousing in the Pool of London is quite involved, and actually very well documented now.  

The London Docks were of course constructed before railways became universal for the movement of goods, and the whole of warehousing and cargo handling on the river was generally by means of lighters.  Reference has already been made to Chris Ellmer's book,  but looking at it you can better appreciate the vast number of small warehouses lining London River, which had been there for a very long time, and had always been water served. So it was a lot easier to load anything in and out of lighters to get to the riverside destination, rather than taking it on land.   The expertise in particular trades and the trade commercial connections would have been tied to all these small warehouses, and inate conservatism would mean that it wasn't going to move to "greenfield" sites (to use the modern jargon).    I won't even touch on Watermens' rights and established rights of wharfage along the Thames.

Labour was really cheap of course, and double, triple or whatever handling didn't seem to enter into the calculations in a big way, and specific skills were of course needed for each and every type of cargo. 

By the time the St Katherine docks were opened they were really  already too small for the size of vessels being thought about, and, like the Caledonian Canal,  didn't achieve what they were intended to do  (as well as destroying a large area of historic London ;-( ).  So they, and the London Docks,  which combined as one company,  didn't attract the attention of the railways, as I imagine the cost/benefit would have been too small, and there were better opportunities opening up all the time further east.

All the maps I have been able to access have shown the line to the London Docks crossing East Smithfield, and then, by using wagon turntables, ran along the west side of the Wool Warehouse, and that was it!    Only one map, that a Bacon street map, shows a bigger set of lines, running to the west end of the dock.   I have never been able to validate this, and it might have indicated intention rather than construction.   

But I still have failed  ever to see a picture of the wool warehouse with railway trucks in it!  Or the actual goods station to the north of East Smithfield!!

 

As a PS,   interesting that the GWR had sleepers for the Hayes Creosoting Yard brought up by lighter from Brentford  via the Grand Union Canal (presumably from the Surrey Docks), and did not use rail transport.

 

 

 

[jointline]

12 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

 

Or, St Katherine, which is what I was trying to say....... one didn’t need to use rail from the big docks to St K, because lighters did the job.

 

I’m guessing that St K took-in raw materials for the very many small manufacturers that were based just outside the City, plus foodstuffs, and possibly took-out manufactured goods.

 

It probably had a small hinterland, so didn’t need much in the way of onward rail transport, and anything to be exported that began its journey by rail would be better routed direct to a big dock, avoiding a lighter trip.

 

Whatever the detail, the amount of handling and in-line-storage in ‘classic logistics’ never ceases to amaze me, and it all had to be paid for in the final price of the goods/product ....... it’s no wonder that containerisation and JIT came into being!

Yes, spot on!

[Nearholmer]

12 minutes ago, jointline said:

But I still have failed  ever to see a picture of the wool warehouse with railway trucks in it!  Or the actual goods station to the north of East Smithfield!!

Look at those aerial shots I linked to, especially the second one.

[jointline]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Look at those aerial shots I linked to, especially the second one.

Yes, thank you.   But odd how so many of these depots had so few pictures taken.  GWR Smithfield was another, although the Wild Swan book has provided a lot not seen before.

It seems uncertain when the line to the London Dock went out of use.  Well before the first war I assume, judging by its disappearance from the OS maps from the 1890's onwards.   

The lack of photographs would be partly accounted for by the fact that the Docks were not "open access", and wandering photographers would not have been able just to take pictures, as they did on the streets. 

For interest I attach an image of the map I referred to in an earlier post.   It is notionally dated 1903,  but I think that the railway lines it shows would have been long gone by then, even if the extensions beyond the wool warehouse ever existed. 

[Nearholmer]

If you can get hold of a big multi-volume book published pre-WW1 called ‘Living London’, I think that might have photos taken in the London Dock.

[jointline]

6 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

If you can get hold of a big multi-volume book published pre-WW1 called ‘Living London’, I think that might have photos taken in the London Dock.

Thank you for that.  I have the set somewhere (!) so I'll have a look in!

[Nearholmer]

Even if it doesn’t, it contains so much of great interest that you’ll be kept entertained all day anyway!