minories through station

[daryll]

is it possible to have Minories as a through station , the through bit would be un seen by people , as in a  road bridge at the end of the platfoms , may be a diagram would help , image not mine

area in black would be a senic city scape , the orignal tracks going to fiddelyard instead of terminus , any ideas on this would be gratfully accepted

 

Cheers

 

Daryll

 

 

 

[Robert Stokes]

I don't see anything wrong with the basic idea. I assume that you intend to have a fiddle yard at both ends. Do you need to cover so much of the lines with the city? I would make this part removable to deal with any derailments or engines which won't start. Sod's law says that these always occur in the places most difficult to get at.

 

Robert

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Daryll

 

Cyril Freezer who designed Minories was inspired by Liverpool Street Metropolitan Railway Station, which is a through station on a big circle of track. 

 

[daryll]

8 minutes ago, Robert Stokes said:

I don't see anything wrong with the basic idea. I assume that you intend to have a fiddle yard at both ends. Do you need to cover so much of the lines with the city? I would make this part removable to deal with any derailments or engines which won't start. Sod's law says that these always occur in the places most difficult to get at.

 

Robert

it was just a quick blob of black , hastly done in Paint.net it wont be that big , more of thr platforms will be visible

 

Cheers

 

Daryll

[daryll]

4 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Daryll

 

Cyril Freezer who designed Minories was inspired by Liverpool Street Metropolitan Railway Station, which is a through station on a big circle of track. 

 

I will look into that , might give me a better insight

 

Cheers

 

Daryll

[Joseph_Pestell]

OT but that map reminds me that there was a model shop in that arcade in the early 1970s with quite a good range of secondhand model railway items.

[ejstubbs]

Cyril Freezer actually did a layout plan for Bishopsgate (which was the original name of the station which subsequently became the Liverpool Street station on the Met).  It's number 46 in the PSL Book of Model Railway Track Plans.  It includes the junction for trains to run round the curve in to the GER station.  That was later removed and the facing turnout in to the bay platform from the eastbound line was added, as can be seen in the map Clive posted.  CJF's plan incorporated both features.  (There's another post of mine about CJF's Bishopsgate layout, including the track plan, on another Minories thread here.)

 

I believe that the key element of CJF's 'inspiration' from the Met's Liverpool Street station was the way that trains arriving from Aylesbury were hauled across the westbound line in to the bay, and then taken out by another loco which had been stabled on the spur, freeing up the loco at the buffers.  In 60 Plans for Small Layouts he says: "in the days of the Met. electric loco-hauled trains...one of those lovely Bo-Bo's [sic] sat permanently in the loco spur".  I think that operational detail was what inspired CJF, rather than anything particular about the track layout of the prototype.  After all, he does say that "After several attempts to turn it in to a compact terminus, all of which ended up hopelessly entangled, I doodled a design incorporating a pair of crossovers which clicked..."  It was his own idea that turned out to be the key that unlocked Minories: the cunning way that the two crossovers which give both lines access to all platforms (and which aren't a particularly unique feature for such a station) were laid out so as to, as far as possible, have a section of straight track in between each pair of reverse curves.  And there's nothing obviously like that in the layout of the Met station.

[CloggyDog]

The Model Railway Club's own Minories EM layout has been converted to a through station - it was at GETS last October sporting a new (and large) round-roundy fiddle yard feeding the scenic bit from both ends. https://www.themodelrailwayclub.org/layouts/minories/

 

 

Must confess I wasn't convinced, as it's moving away from the whole point of Cyril's Minories, that of an intensively-worked urban terminus and the challenges that gives the operator.

 

 

That said... what you're proposing is more a model of a station throat, rather than a terminus (arguably). I'm planning something similar, albeit set in East Germany, circa 1980 - ends of platforms, the start of an overall roof, station throat fed from a fiddle at each end (which could equally be a roundy-roundy fiddle)

 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2020 by CloggyDog

[Joseph_Pestell]

3 hours ago, daryll said:

I will look into that , might give me a better insight

 

Cheers

 

Daryll

 

I think that this could, just about be built on the proverbial 6' x 4' board (00). As always presentation of a line in a cutting demands a few compromises.

 

One has to admire the chutzpah of naming a small alleyway Broad St Avenue.

[Joseph_Pestell]

3 minutes ago, CloggyDog said:

 

 

 

That said... what you're proposing is more a model of a station throat, rather than a terminus (arguably). I'm planning something similar, albeit set in East Germany, circa 1980 - ends of platforms, the start of an overall roof, station throat fed from a fiddle at each end (which could equally be a roundy-roundy fiddle)

 

 

 

 

That sounds like one that I have had on the drawing board for a few years. But the station would just be a backdrop for the tram models that I picked up in Prague about 20 years ago. Picked up a rake of German coaches on eBay this morning, so one small step closer to happening.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Just been looking at Liverpool St Met on an 1896 OS map.

 

I was surprised to see a double-track link to the GER station having believed it to be single. Need to find my copy of London's Termini but I think it may have been singled at some point with trains only running off the Met to the GER. I do remember my father taking me to Liverpool St in the late 60s and one could certainly still see traces of the route.

 

Cellar in that pub on the corner must have been a bit small with so much space taken by the railway.

[CloggyDog]

53 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Just been looking at Liverpool St Met on an 1896 OS map.

 

I was surprised to see a double-track link to the GER station having believed it to be single. Need to find my copy of London's Termini but I think it may have been singled at some point with trains only running off the Met to the GER. I do remember my father taking me to Liverpool St in the late 60s and one could certainly still see traces of the route.

 

Cellar in that pub on the corner must have been a bit small with so much space taken by the railway.

 

The through route was converted at the last major reworking of Liverpool St Underground station in the 1980s - it was part used for comms and signal cabling, plus some staff accommodation. I do need to take up the LU's station manager's offer to have a look down there at some point (I work for LU, so it would be a 'legit'(ish) visit!)

[DCB]

17 hours ago, daryll said:

is it possible to have Minories as a through station , the through bit would be un seen by people , as in a  road bridge at the end of the platfoms , may be a diagram would help , image not mine

area in black would be a senic city scape , the orignal tracks going to fiddelyard instead of terminus , any ideas on this would be gratfully accepted

 

Cheers

Daryll

 

The track layout is very odd for a through station.  Access to all platforms from both directions. I simply don't see why the "Middle" facing crossover would be provided or what use it would be as either a full size or model through station.  In an old 60 plans by CJF he refers to operation by the new  suburban tank locos and coaches, that would have been H/D 2-6-4T, Triang 3MT Grafar 81XX and maybe H/D N2. 

Leaving it as a terminus/ FY with a city over does have the advantage that you can run round the stock instead of needing a pilot or turnback loco.   The only place I can think of where turnback locos were used  were the single GN and single Midland platforms at Moorgate.   To be honest I would lengthen the platforms as much as possible put in a crossover loco release so off peak services can have the loco run round and enjoy operating Minories as CJF suggested all those years ago.   Running at 5/10 minute peak service headways would be a great way to wind down after a hard day drinking coffee and staring at a computer screen.

[DavidB-AU]

18 hours ago, daryll said:

is it possible to have Minories as a through station , the through bit would be un seen by people , as in a  road bridge at the end of the platfoms , may be a diagram would help , image not mine

area in black would be a senic city scape , the orignal tracks going to fiddelyard instead of terminus , any ideas on this would be gratfully accepted

 

Cheers

 

Daryll

 

 

 

 

Not entirely unlike Baker Street.

 

 

[SRman]

On my old layout (now defunct and gone to layout heaven), I had a Minories based double track branch line. I built the terminus as if it had been a through station but the branch had been truncated at that point (not unlike many real branch termini in later years). I added buffer stops and then some sleepers set in ballast beyond those. I did have in mind that I could have built an extension later on, but that never happened.

This is a very old photo so not as crisp as lmy later cameras and phones could be, but it gives some idea of what I did. This was the outer track that would have formed a loop, rejoining the double track some distance beyond the buffer stop (and off the edge of my baseboard!), and this platform would have historically been an island platform.

 

DSCN5192 by Jeffrey Lynn, on Flickr

[Harlequin]

@daryll Why do you want to do this? Do you have severe space limitations?

 

[Clive Mortimore]

5 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

 

The track layout is very odd for a through station.  Access to all platforms from both directions. I simply don't see why the "Middle" facing crossover would be provided or what use it would be as either a full size or model through station.  In an old 60 plans by CJF he refers to operation by the new  suburban tank locos and coaches, that would have been H/D 2-6-4T, Triang 3MT Grafar 81XX and maybe H/D N2. 

Leaving it as a terminus/ FY with a city over does have the advantage that you can run round the stock instead of needing a pilot or turnback loco.   The only place I can think of where turnback locos were used  were the single GN and single Midland platforms at Moorgate.   To be honest I would lengthen the platforms as much as possible put in a crossover loco release so off peak services can have the loco run round and enjoy operating Minories as CJF suggested all those years ago.   Running at 5/10 minute peak service headways would be a great way to wind down after a hard day drinking coffee and staring at a computer screen.

Until WW2 the GWR had a through service that terminated in the bay platform at Liverpool Street (Met Rly), using their articulated city lines stock with Met Rly electrics hauling them from Paddington to Liverpool Street. I also remember reading that some Met Rly hauled services also terminated at Liverpool Street.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Clive Mortimore

[ejstubbs]

2 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I also remember reading that some Met Rly hauled services also terminated at Liverpool Street.

 

To expand on my earlier quote from CJF in 60 Plans...: "Liverpool Street (Met.) ... had two running roads and a long bay which, in the days of the Met. electric loco-hauled trains, was used to turn Aylesbury trains, which meant that one of those lovely Bo-Bo's sat permanently in the loco spur".

 

 

[keefer]

The Met station and the link to Liverpool St. GER, from Joe Brown's 'London Railway Atlas':

[Nearholmer]

Cloggy

 

1) I think you will find that the route has been swept away by Crossrail works. The Significant comms facility was certainly moved out of it to permit that c2015-16.

 

2) I too was deeply unconvinced by the MRC conversion of Minories to a through station when I saw it at GETS. Few layouts can have such a small scenic:not-scenic ratio, while simultaneously not hiding the non-scenic bit splendidly well. I also thought that the scenic work was far below the standard of the track and trains, which was very disappointing from The Permier Club.

 

3) CJF's Bishopsgate design isn't one of his greats. Spend any time mentally playing trains on it, and it becomes apparent that the balloon loop faces the wrong way to be useful.

 

Kevin

[kevinlms]

13 hours ago, ejstubbs said:

 

To expand on my earlier quote from CJF in 60 Plans...: "Liverpool Street (Met.) ... had two running roads and a long bay which, in the days of the Met. electric loco-hauled trains, was used to turn Aylesbury trains, which meant that one of those lovely Bo-Bo's sat permanently in the loco spur".

 

 

Were the electric locos that unreliable?

[PatB]

41 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Were the electric locos that unreliable?

Nah, it's just that someone wired the dead end protection diode the wrong way round, so the loco would run in, but not out again ;-). 

[TonyMay]

One of the reasons it doesn't really work as a steam-era through station is that in the steam era, it wasn't common at a double-track through station for lines in both directions to be able to access all platforms.  This was partly to avoid potential facing conflicts, i.e. trains running head first into each other, which was considered undesirable.  So, there would be one set of up platforms and one set of down platforms.  An up train wanting to reverse would enter the station in the up direction, would enter the up platforms.  It would then either depart in the down direction from the up platforms, using a trailing crossover, or be shunted across into the down platforms for a later departure.

 

So to "improve" the accuracy  you should really delete the facing crossover from the approach.

 

Modern signalling layouts prefer maximum flexibility, so usually allow both lines to access all platforms.  A "minories" type approach allows that.  I think it looks OK as a modern layout with three platforms, one Right-to-left and two left-to-right, assuming that there's an appropriate approach at the other end.  It's similar to the new Rochester station.

[Sturminster_Newton]

On 17/02/2020 at 09:39, daryll said:

is it possible to have Minories as a through station , the through bit would be un seen by people , as in a  road bridge at the end of the platfoms , may be a diagram would help , image not mine

area in black would be a senic city scape , the orignal tracks going to fiddelyard instead of terminus , any ideas on this would be gratfully accepted

 

Cheers

 

Daryll

 

 

 

Looking at the various Minories designs CJF returned to the subject numerous times.

 

Perhaps it would be better to look at a standard mainline station that fed a couple of branches.

 

I have in mind Horsham as this had the mainline to London via 3bridges and London via Dorking and Sutton.

 

It was also the terminus for the Horsham Brighton and Horsham Guildford branches.

 

With regard to the plan provided perhaps the first thing to do is to move the signal cabin to the other side of the mainline. if the 'country end' fed into a tunnel and rock face this would make a change from the usual Bus on a bridge cliche.

 

The area not shown by the black blob could have platform one feed either a heritage line branch or be the access point for a further tunnel that would lead to an off-stage MPD or just be a disused line feature.

 

I would have a couple of traversers to allow some interchange of rolling stock on the mainline.

 

Whatever route is taken it will not be a compact railway modern DMU or even early units require a good length of 'platform' and storage siding so expect this design to extend for 12-16 feet from buffer stop to buffer stop including the suggested curtailed station.

 

Model Rail bookazines feature a couple of Bitza models based on Station Throats or Terminus and concourse.

 

There is a lot to commend that idea and also the right 'junction station' can provide a very useful basis but one needs to be very choosy on which to base one's project.