RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted February 17, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 17, 2020 I'm having trouble with the programming track output on my DR5000. When not in programming mode I can drive a loco on a track connected to that output so I know all the connections are good but in programming mode it just shows No Load. Am I missing something obvious? Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveArkley Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 24 minutes ago, Dagworth said: in programming mode it just shows No Load. Hi Andi, What software are you using? What shows "No load"? Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted February 17, 2020 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 17, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, DaveArkley said: Hi Andi, What software are you using? What shows "No load"? Cheers Dave The Digikeijs own software. Andi Edited February 17, 2020 by Dagworth Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveArkley Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 Just now, Dagworth said: The Digikeijs own software. 'No load' means that it can't detect a motor on the track, to program a decoder needs a motor to provide back EMF. Is this the loco that you can run OK using 'Drive'? What decoder is fitted? Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted February 17, 2020 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 17, 2020 I've tried several different locos, I can drive them all on the prog track using the Test Drive panel but they show no load when trying to program them. Decoders from various sources but mostly Lenz 1025s in Vi Trains 37s at the moment. Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveArkley Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 6 minutes ago, Dagworth said: I've tried several different locos, I can drive them all on the prog track using the Test Drive panel but they show no load when trying to program them. That 0mA track current looks odd to me, I always see at least 1mA: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted February 17, 2020 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 17, 2020 Just tried plugging my LH100 in, again I can drive on the programming track but if I try to do any programming the LH100 shows Error 02 (no loco detected) Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 100% certain that you connected the programming outputs to the programming track? Might be worth spending 5 minutes tracing them through to be absolutely sure that they are connected correctly Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted February 17, 2020 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 17, 2020 Answer has come back from the user group on groups.io, the programming track doesn't work if the power supply voltage is set above 19v Andi 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveArkley Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 42 minutes ago, Dagworth said: Answer has come back from the user group on groups.io, the programming track doesn't work if the power supply voltage is set above 19v Andi So does it work with your DR5000 if you drop the voltage? If so why did your Lenz kit not work then? Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted February 17, 2020 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 17, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, DaveArkley said: So does it work with your DR5000 if you drop the voltage? If so why did your Lenz kit not work then? Cheers Dave yes, works perfectly now, voltage dropped to 18v Because I'd only plugged the Lenz handset into the DR5000 Now how do I use the csv files options for reading the decoders? Andi Edited February 17, 2020 by Dagworth 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 Now that makes sense - t he DR5000 simply drops the input voltage by approx 1.5v to create the output voltage which means it couldn’t get the programming track voltage low enough from a 19v starting point to be safe. i thought that they supplied to power supply set to 18v and many people set it lower rather than jacking it up which would be why we haven’t heard of this ‘quirk’ :) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 I'm also having problems programming on the DR5000. If I believe my cheap AC voltmeter there is DCC voltage on the programming track as well as on the main track. This is so even if I disconnect the programming terminals on the back of the DR5000, so it can't be any inadvertent connection on the layout. I thought the programming track was supposed to be dead when not in use. Is this correct? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted July 29, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 29, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Edwin_m said: I'm also having problems programming on the DR5000. If I believe my cheap AC voltmeter there is DCC voltage on the programming track as well as on the main track. This is so even if I disconnect the programming terminals on the back of the DR5000, so it can't be any inadvertent connection on the layout. I thought the programming track was supposed to be dead when not in use. Is this correct? I think on a DR5000, the program track resumes full track output when not in programming mode. But it may be user selectable - I'm not certain without checking up. Edited July 29, 2020 by newbryford Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 8 hours ago, newbryford said: I think on a DR5000, the program track resumes full track output when not in programming mode. But it may be user selectable - I'm not certain without checking up. Thanks for that. I'm beginning to think current command stations do this and the classic switchable programming track is no longer required. But the relay only clicks when I try to read a CV, so doing that will expose the train to full DCC voltage when I thought you were supposed to test a new install on the programming track before doing that... Even then there still seem to be DCC volts on the programming track during the CV read. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 The time when you are writing to the decoder is when the relay clicks on giving the reduced output for programming, the rest of the time you are not writing to the decoder therefore there isn't the danger of damaging the decoder because it is designed to take up to 22v track voltage. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 40 minutes ago, WIMorrison said: The time when you are writing to the decoder is when the relay clicks on giving the reduced output for programming, the rest of the time you are not writing to the decoder therefore there isn't the danger of damaging the decoder because it is designed to take up to 22v track voltage. No. There is a serious risk if people follow the traditional, and well documented, methods for ensuring a decoder is fitted correctly. If there is a wiring error (self-installed wiring, or manufacturer error), then the decoder can go "pfff" instantly on the system you describe. Wiring error such as connecting a motor output to pickup - that's happened in commercial produced locos with decoder sockets, it runs perfectly on DC with the blanking plug (it would, the pickups go to the motor!), will blow the motor drive transistors on many decoders instantly on DCC track power. It can also happen with decoder pins too long, shorting on the chassis block. And then DIY wiring could have mistakes, or stray single strands of wire. With the "traditional" programming track, with no power, other than the power limited programming pulses, the decoder is safe. If there is a wiring error of the types above, the decoder won't read back on the programming track, indicating a problem which should be investigated before trying the programming step again. Some decoder makers (typically European) have motor output protection, so won't necessarily go "pffff" in the above scenarios. But even with those its not a recommended approach! - Nigel 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 If these dire predictions and warnings of decoder destruction are accurate why is it that so many manufacturers use the track voltage on the programming track except when writing to the decoder? If they were causing decoders to go ‘pfft’ then they would be facing demands for replacement decoders left, right and centre yet this doesn’t seem to be the case. Could it be because decoders are not as delicate as usually suggested? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted July 30, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 30, 2020 I thought programming tracks were current limited, rather than voltage limited? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 10 hours ago, WIMorrison said: If these dire predictions and warnings of decoder destruction are accurate why is it that so many manufacturers use the track voltage on the programming track except when writing to the decoder? If they were causing decoders to go ‘pfft’ then they would be facing demands for replacement decoders left, right and centre yet this doesn’t seem to be the case. Could it be because decoders are not as delicate as usually suggested? Newer ones may be more robust but it still seems to me to be an issue. I've had similar problems to those mentioned, even with locos out of the box. I'm toying with the idea of a circuit to isolate the programming track when it's fed with DCC, but if it was tolerant enough to let the programming pulses through then it would probably let the DCC through long enough to fry the decoder in the event of a fault. 10 hours ago, newbryford said: I thought programming tracks were current limited, rather than voltage limited? Either way they limit enough to prevent damage from a wiring fault. I very much doubt the programming track is current limited when fed with DCC, it would just be a case of the command station closing a contact to connect it to the main DCC output. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 (edited) 15 hours ago, WIMorrison said: If these dire predictions and warnings of decoder destruction are accurate why is it that so many manufacturers use the track voltage on the programming track except when writing to the decoder? If they were causing decoders to go ‘pfft’ then they would be facing demands for replacement decoders left, right and centre yet this doesn’t seem to be the case. Could it be because decoders are not as delicate as usually suggested? Most decoders are likely to be socket installs, where problems will be very rare. RTR train makers usually get their PCB's right, but mistaken products have reached the shops, resulting in warranty claims against the RTR maker for loss of expensive decoders. As well as mistakes in PCB design, there have been poor assembly examples, with tracks bridged by solder, pins to motor brush gear contacting chassis blocks, etc.. They've all been reported in this forum and others, though remain relatively rare. And those doing hard-wire DIY installations have all the potential for mistakes, either getting wires confused, or stray strands of wire, or stray electrical paths not considered by the installer. Some decoders will go "pfff" instantly if you short the motor outputs to the DCC signal. If you want to enjoy a bit of blue-smoke, try shorting some US brands such as TCS or NCE, and this might extend to Lias and the other TCS-alike "clones". Some other decoders are better protected - I've shorted Zimo outputs to the DCC track in test rigs (live metal parts involving shape-memory alloy very near the rails) and their output protection worked against my mistake. A programming track has energy limited (current and time exposed) according to the NMRA DCC specification for service mode programming. A decoder is supposed to withstand that limited energy when there is a wiring error. Limited energy in Service Mode is defined as 250mA for 100mS. If DCC track power is present for more than 0.1 seconds, it is outside of the specification, so a live DCC track cannot be "limited energy". (See NMRA DCC standard section S9.2.3 ). 4 hours ago, Edwin_m said: Newer ones may be more robust but it still seems to me to be an issue. I've had similar problems to those mentioned, even with locos out of the box. I'm toying with the idea of a circuit to isolate the programming track when it's fed with DCC, but if it was tolerant enough to let the programming pulses through then it would probably let the DCC through long enough to fry the decoder in the event of a fault. NCE "AutoSwitch" for around £25, that's designed to do the isolation: disconnects the programming track when DCC track power is present on its input. - Nigel Edited July 31, 2020 by Nigelcliffe small grammar edit for clarity Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 2 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said: NCE "AutoSwitch" for around £25, that's designed to do the isolation: disconnects the programming track when DCC track power is present on its input. Thanks for that. Most of my decoders are Zimos but I'll certainly look into the AutoSwitch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 Digikeijs very usefully pointed out that programming still works when the track power is switched off via the red button. That's likely to be good enough for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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