The first quadruple track main line in the UK?

[PenrithBeacon]

17 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

That short section at Stafford is odd - as far as bridge numbering sequences go, I'd have assume that there would have been one for the Trent Valley line and one for the Grand Junction line, with the latter being continuous at Stafford?

I think this the traditional way of looking at the railway but the current railway doesn't do it like that

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

I think this the traditional way of looking at the railway but the current railway doesn't do it like that

 

Ah well, my frequent travelling in that direction was over thirty years ago. 

[PenrithBeacon]

33 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Ah well, my frequent travelling in that direction was over thirty years ago. 

I think the independent milepost sequence is still used but that might have been changed by the iconoclasts too.

[Edwin_m]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

That short section at Stafford is odd - as far as bridge numbering sequences go, I'd have assume that there would have been one for the Trent Valley line and one for the Grand Junction line, with the latter being continuous at Stafford?

Coming from the Trent Valley the ELR changes from LEC2 to LEC3 at Trent Valley Junction No1.  The mileage is continuous so probably post-dates the original Grand Junction.  The Quail map doesn't show bridge numbers but they may well run on from the Birmingham direction as you suggest.  The change from LEC3 to LEC4 just north of Stafford station as well, again with no mileage change.  If I get time I'll see if I can work out what the bridge numbers are doing in this area.  

10 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

I think the independent milepost sequence is still used but that might have been changed by the iconoclasts too.

Going by how the mileposts relate to route histories, some companies appear to have set up or revised their mileposts after the lines were first built.  The Stafford case above appears to be one example, and the Midland re-miled its entire network in about 1907.  But in recent history the tendency has been to keep the mileposts the same even if they are extremely illogical, because so many records and drawings rely on them.  The same is probably true of bridge numbers.  

[PenrithBeacon]

Prior to the de-nationalisation of the railways, the milepost sequence on the WCML was Euston-Rugby (L&BR); Trent Valley (TVR); Stafford-Winwick (GJR);  Winwick-Golborne Jc (LNW?); Golborne-Wigan (L&MR); Wigan-Preston (LUR); Preston-Lancaster (L&P Jc); Lancaster-Carlisle (L&C); Carlisle Citadel (L&C, CR Jnt); Carlisle-Glasgow/Edinburgh (CR).

 

AFAIK this milepost sequence is still in use, but the bridges were re-numbered by Railtrack as they seem to have been all over the UK

[caradoc]

2 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Prior to the de-nationalisation of the railways, the milepost sequence on the WCML was Euston-Rugby (L&BR); Trent Valley (TVR); Stafford-Winwick (GJR);  Winwick-Golborne Jc (LNW?); Golborne-Wigan (L&MR); Wigan-Preston (LUR); Preston-Lancaster (L&P Jc); Lancaster-Carlisle (L&C); Carlisle Citadel (L&C, CR Jnt); Carlisle-Glasgow/Edinburgh (CR).

 

AFAIK this milepost sequence is still in use, but the bridges were re-numbered by Railtrack as they seem to have been all over the UK

 

To the best of my knowledge no bridges in Scotland have been renumbered.

 

There are still bridge number anomalies however; Between Dundee and Aberdeen the numbers 'step back' at the former Kinnaber Jc, resulting in duplicate numbers (albeit with a different ELR) within a few miles of each other !

[Rugd1022]

4 hours ago, Edwin_m said:

Coming from the Trent Valley the ELR changes from LEC2 to LEC3 at Trent Valley Junction No1.  The mileage is continuous so probably post-dates the original Grand Junction.  The Quail map doesn't show bridge numbers but they may well run on from the Birmingham direction as you suggest.  The change from LEC3 to LEC4 just north of Stafford station as well, again with no mileage change.  If I get time I'll see if I can work out what the bridge numbers are doing in this area.  

Going by how the mileposts relate to route histories, some companies appear to have set up or revised their mileposts after the lines were first built.  The Stafford case above appears to be one example, and the Midland re-miled its entire network in about 1907.  But in recent history the tendency has been to keep the mileposts the same even if they are extremely illogical, because so many records and drawings rely on them.  The same is probably true of bridge numbers.  

 

Keeping the mileposts as they are makes very practical sense for those of us who have to rely on them, you get so used to having everything the same for years that any changes, even slight ones, can throw you. We refer to them a lot in T3 engineering possessions, for example when entering a worksite the Engineering Supervisor might tell you to ''move the train down to 103 miles 30 chains and await instructions from there'', sometimes it's that specific and has to be adhered to. When it comes to chains you can get a good idea of exactly where to stop once you've done it a few times. I often find that the route knowledge aspects of the job are the most satisfying parts of it.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Rugd1022

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, Edwin_m said:

the Midland re-miled its entire network in about 1907.  

 

... and consequently was one of only two lines in Britain to have mileposts carrying numbers greater than 300, though I think the Great Western posted the absolute highest number, at Penzance - 326½. However, although the distance diagrams give mileages by the shortest route from St Pancras for the west road, the posts start from a zero pint at the centre of Derby station. Some years ago I went on an authorised tour of the remains of Sutton Town station on the Walsall - Water Orton line; milepost 39 (IIRC) was pointed out. 

[Trog]

20 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

That short section at Stafford is odd - as far as bridge numbering sequences go, I'd have assume that there would have been one for the Trent Valley line and one for the Grand Junction line, with the latter being continuous at Stafford?

 

As I understand it the situation at Stafford is that there is a single run of mileposts off the TV through Stafford and onward to Crewe.

 

The TV line LEC2 bridge number sequence however stops at the junction with the RBS3 line from Bushbury, north of the junction LEC3 the bridges continue the number sequence of the RBS3 which uses mileage and bridge numbers continued from the Grand Junction route south of Bushbury Junction.

 

So for Stafford TV junction to Doxey Junction just north of Stafford station LEC3, we use the track mileage off one line and the bridge numbers off the other, nothing strange about that given that we are talking railways.

 

Then at Doxey Junction the bridge numbers reset to 1 and we are off to Crewe on LEC4.

[keefer]

6 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

To the best of my knowledge no bridges in Scotland have been renumbered.

 

There are still bridge number anomalies however; Between Dundee and Aberdeen the numbers 'step back' at the former Kinnaber Jc, resulting in duplicate numbers (albeit with a different ELR) within a few miles of each other !

This came to mind, not for bridges but for the mileposts - North of Kinnaber Jcn, the mileages are still from Carlisle via the closed Caledonian Strathmore route from Perth.

South of Kinnaber, the mileage is from the 0 MP at Dundee

[Edwin_m]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

... and consequently was one of only two lines in Britain to have mileposts carrying numbers greater than 300, though I think the Great Western posted the absolute highest number, at Penzance - 326½. However, although the distance diagrams give mileages by the shortest route from St Pancras for the west road, the posts start from a zero pint at the centre of Derby station. Some years ago I went on an authorised tour of the remains of Sutton Town station on the Walsall - Water Orton line; milepost 39 (IIRC) was pointed out. 

One of the principles of the Midland's re-miling was that a branch with a "trailing" junction in the direction of increasing mileage had its mileage starting from a zero at the junction ("facing" branches continued the mileage at the junction).  The longest such branch was from Derby all the way to Bristol and Bath which was a single mileage series.  The current passenger services deviate from the measured distance using the cut-off at Kingsbury (built after the re-mileing) and the diversion via New Street (not continuous as the main mileage takes the shorter route via Camp Hill).  

2 hours ago, Trog said:

 

As I understand it the situation at Stafford is that there is a single run of mileposts off the TV through Stafford and onward to Crewe.

 

The TV line LEC2 bridge number sequence however stops at the junction with the RBS3 line from Bushbury, north of the junction LEC3 the bridges continue the number sequence of the RBS3 which uses mileage and bridge numbers continued from the Grand Junction route south of Bushbury Junction.

 

So for Stafford TV junction to Doxey Junction just north of Stafford station LEC3, we use the track mileage off one line and the bridge numbers off the other, nothing strange about that given that we are talking railways.

 

Then at Doxey Junction the bridge numbers reset to 1 and we are off to Crewe on LEC4.

Thanks for clearing this up.  Saved me spending ages wading through Five Mile Diagrams!