Guest WM183 Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 Hi folks. Having decided to move north to the land of the LMS, my focus has turned to getting a locomotive into my grubby hands; wagons are fun, but they're more fun when a loco can bother them a bit! I will begin with a Jinty, I think, and am deciding whether to get a RtR from Dapol or a kit from Connoisseur (or both, sometime!). The RtR model is amazing, and is quite a bit less when you factor in the cost of wheels, motor, and all, but I do not know how it stacks up, detail-wise, to the brass kit. Does anyone by chance own either or both who could comment? Particularly with regards to how difficult the build was? I will eventually also want to get a 4F kit as well, but am not sure if that's a good "first kit". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatB Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 Whilst I haven't built the Connoisseur Jinty, I have built other Connoisseur kits and they've all been very well designed and quite straightforward. If you can build a wagon kit I doubt if you'll have any serious problems. As for other factors affecting choice of one over another, detail is what you make of it. I suspect the kit would have more detail as standard, but you might get bored with sticking it all on, or discouraged because a large, long lived class like the 3F will have so many minor differences between examples. With the rtr model, many of those decisions will have been made for you. You can always spend the price difference on extra bits if it turns out that you want them. Something I would take into account is potential longevity. A well constructed brass kit, with a conventional chassis, gears and motor arrangement will last, effectively, forever, all its components being easily replaceable in the event of wear or damage. All such work would obviously be within the abilities of the builder. A rtr model, OTOH, may (and, not being familiar with the running gear of Dapol rtr 0 gauge I do stress may) contain unique parts, non-replaceable bearings etc, rendering it more of a sealed for life proposition. Depending on factors like usage, what that life is may be entirely satisfactory, rendering the point moot. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 I'm holding on before building a loco kit. My experience in 4mm with loco kits was pretty dismal with one thing or another preventing me from finishing. There are people on here who seem to be able to turn out loco kits like buns. When you are building a layout more or less single handed, any short cut is a welcome thing. Therefore my vote is for RTR. The Dapol Jinty is brilliant and, with sound, even more so. In fact, all the RTR locos that I have had experience with have been great. Dapol Jinty, Terrier and 08, Minerva 57XX, Lionheart 74XX, Little Loco Class 15. I bought Tower Brass J50 and J39 which are also wonderful and contain more detail than RTR such as working inside valve gear. However, you have to pay for that. All my locos have sound, for 7mm I think that is a must. I suppose if you have a garden railway and run trains all day, RTR locos might wear out. My layout is a BLT so loco mileage is likely to be very low. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
decauville1126 Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 With all loco kits it's worthwhile looking at the total cost of kit, wheels, motor & gearbox, etc., and then compare that with the cost of the ready-to-run (rtr) model. Today's offerings are probably of a quality far higher than most kits can be produced and finished to. And then of course there is your time and ability to build the kit, however enjoyable you find that process. But sometimes a kit can be the best way to go if you need to modify or tweak to get the exact item you wish to model - much easier to do with components or etches than a one-piece plastic moulding usually. Certainly in 4mm scale I would go for an rtr offering over a kit, unless it was something I wanted that was unlikely to be produced, even with a crystal ball, by the rtr manufacturers. But then who would ever have thought that Hornby would do a Ruston 48DS! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 Great points. I started a Craftsman MR 0-4-4T 1P and just as I was about to close a sale on it, Bachmann announced theirs. The chap backed out. That was 3 years ago and I don't think it is out even now. Modern RTR models are so good, I couldn't bring myself to try to build a kit of the same prototype. I was actually thinking about the LLC Ruston before they went under. Maybe someone will step up and finish it. In 7mm, RTR locos have barely scratched the surface (unless you do GWR ). John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Gilbert Posted February 18, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 18, 2020 (edited) I have built the Connoisseur 4F as my first loco after a few wagons. . In general it went well. The instructions are very good. Some thoughts: I used an ABC gear box to avoid any gear box issues. The boiler comes rolled but bending the firebox took some thought and the smokebox rolling was done by a friend with rolling bars. Tender was done first to get used to the process. I did not do anything clever with compensation etc - I just eased the bearings on the central loco axle to give it a bit of play. Mine has Zimo sound from Digitrains and is not bad for a steam loco. Chris PS - now I've built one an RTR version can not be far behind.... Edited February 18, 2020 by Gilbert 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WM183 Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 I have a feeling another LMS prototype will come along soon; hopefully something small layout friendly, like your lovely 4F or an Ivatt of any flavor. I'll probably go for the RtR Jinty - my only real "issue" is the railing around the coal bunker, and i can make one of those easy enough from brass. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Major Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 If you want to have a look at what is involved in making a Connoisseur Fowler 3F Jinty have a look <here> on the Connoisseur website. If you scroll down to the bottom of the page you will see 2 links to download instructions. The first is <LMS 3F Jinty Instructions parts identification print off pdf> the second is <LMS 3F Jinty Loco Instruction Booklet print off pdf> . They will enable to price the job up and to see what is involved in the construction. Personally I am a great fan of Jim's kits (no connection etc) Ian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 Gilbert, that 4F looks great. It is one loco I am on the lookout for. No sign of it being produced for RTR I'm afraid. WM, if the only issue with the Jinty is the coal rails, it can't be too bad at all. I did build a Connoisseur NBR Brake van and it was a fun build. Connoisseur kits are famously very sparse beneath the solebars so I had to build the brake gear myself. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatB Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 23 minutes ago, Gilbert said: PS - now I've built one an RTR version can not be far behind.... Well, Lima did get there 45 years ago...... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WM183 Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 2 hours ago, Ian Major said: If you want to have a look at what is involved in making a Connoisseur Fowler 3F Jinty have a look <here> on the Connoisseur website. If you scroll down to the bottom of the page you will see 2 links to download instructions. The first is <LMS 3F Jinty Instructions parts identification print off pdf> the second is <LMS 3F Jinty Loco Instruction Booklet print off pdf> . They will enable to price the job up and to see what is involved in the construction. Personally I am a great fan of Jim's kits (no connection etc) Ian. Oh! That is cool! I will download them and have a look!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
90164 Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 The Dapol Jinty is very good and very competitively priced. The Connoisseur kit goes together very well and offers greater choice of prototype than the Dapol version, so if you want a Jinty without the 'keyhole' in the side, the Connoisseur is the one to go for. Gladiator also do a kit for a Jinty, which might be worth an investigation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 Fundamental question. do you want to have a model of a Jinty, or to build a model of a Jinty? building a kit will take some hours, I reckon 6 months of spare time, and I’ve done a few, and reckon I’m reasonably proficient. Your first one might take longer. I guess it depends on how much time you can spare. But if you want to build something and say “I made that”, it’s rather more satisfying than saying “look at what I just bought”. of course, the question of how much you want to spend on your hobby has an influence. You might buy one to have a loco, then build one (same or different) to enjoy the process. either way, enjoy! atb Simon 3 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WM183 Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Simond said: Fundamental question. do you want to have a model of a Jinty, or to build a model of a Jinty? building a kit will take some hours, I reckon 6 months of spare time, and I’ve done a few, and reckon I’m reasonably proficient. Your first one might take longer. I guess it depends on how much time you can spare. But if you want to build something and say “I made that”, it’s rather more satisfying than saying “look at what I just bought”. of course, the question of how much you want to spend on your hobby has an influence. You might buy one to have a loco, then build one (same or different) to enjoy the process. either way, enjoy! atb Simon I suppose I will buy one so I can get a loco to use for now, and then I will build one and sell my RtR one later perhaps. My first love is building kits, so I'd much rather have the fun of building one. Regardless if I want a 4f or an Ivatt i need to build those! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 No shame in "having" a Jinty. You can make it unique by adding sound, crew, coal, tools and weathering. I cringe when people take an untouched model out of the box to run. John 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 John, I wasn’t suggesting there was any shame in RTR, I have two Minerva and a Lionheart pannier, and a Minerva Peckett, and an Ixion Fowler too! And they’re all “customised”! its just the question prompted me to try to understand the OP’s motivation, in order to try to help. atb Simon 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hal Nail Posted February 19, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 19, 2020 (edited) I'd buy a 2nd hand Dapol on eBay of which there seem to be plenty, weather or detail it and get something running. Meanwhile build a kit in the background and eventually sell the Dapol one on again for at least what you paid in the first place. Whilst I wouldn't pretend to be earning a living, I'm currently funding my hobby of building kits and weathering wagons by buying carefully (ie always waiting for a good price) and then selling a few on. Also justifies doing the odd thing that you fancy but isnt really your era or area etc Edit- somehow managed to miss the post saying exactly this! Edited February 19, 2020 by Hal Nail 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WM183 Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 Well I will try to find one on Ebay - I've got my eye on one just now, and would love to give it a new home! I am also watching some wagons, so hopefully I'll have a bit more to do here soon! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTJ Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 (edited) Hi, I have both Dapol and Connisseur. I like both. The Connisseur model was easy to make thanks to Jim's excellent instructions. It still has 'his' fold-up gearbox and it runs very well. He is a little scathing of 'XYZ" gearboxes. I think if one is making a simple 0-6-0 loco then a fold-up box is fine; anything more complex then I would go for a more advanced unit. If I can upload some pics you'll (just) see the Connisseur loco is 1-2 mm taller. I have lightly weathered this on but not the Dapol -just picked out a few copper and brass details...and yes, somehow I have bent one of the buffers.. Now all I need is a layout to run all my rolling stock on!!! Apologies for the dust on both locos. Edited February 23, 2020 by RTJ Dust on the locos -apologies! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WM183 Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 That connoisseur model is really good looking! I wish kits werent more than rtr. Hopefully I can sell a couple brass engines soon to free up some hobby cash . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 I've been thinking about kits since RTR locos that would suit me are thin on the ground. I have a Slaters 1F that I bought second hand for a reasonable price all in. I just have to get stuck in. However, layout has to come first in priority (at least that's what the logical side of my brain says). I was browsing MM1 models and came across a couple of good candidates, a MR 2F - some of these survived until 1964 according to Wiki. Another possibility is the 3F tender loco. The nice thing about MM1/JLTRT kits is that the boilers are cast in resin. This eliminates a lot of the tricky bending and rolling. Adds considerable weight too. All seem to be in the 300 - 350 price range, ex wheels etc. All in maybe 500. RTR tender locos are probably not all that far off in price. If you want a brass RTR tender loco you are looking at double that John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M51625 Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 As above, do you want a jinty, out of a box, or do you want to build a jinty from almost a flatpack? my personal interest is building kits, and enjoying the 100s of hours it takes to get a finished item, smaller kits take less, but its very rewarding when finished. I started with a conniossuer BR standard brake van back in 1997, and last year built a J39 from the same supplier, JIm certainly is very helpful, approachable and the majority of his instructions are available to download on his website, he has nothing to hide, i find his castings to be excellent quality, etches are well laid out and the instructions are great, i have not hestitation to recommend his range to you, of course you can upgrade parts but thats personal preference, for example i don't like his screw couplings so i fit others.. No connection with this suppier, just a regular customer, another brake van and a 4F on order.. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WM183 Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 All being equal I'd rather build one. For me, building the models is my favourite part; running them is secondary. I might try and get an RtR one to have something to run, but it isn't a priority. I am still trying to decide which scale, 4mm or 7mm, to "focus" on. The fact that 7mm models have the correct (more or less) track scale as-is is a big benefit to me, as is the greater ease with which I can add all the details and bits I love. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 You hit the nail on the head. 7mm gauge is much closer to actual gauge than 4mm. This whole thing is a balancing act. Where do you put your resources to get the most efficient layout? Locos and wagons are not ends in themselves unless you plan to put them on the mantelpiece. At some point track will have to be procured, boards built and track laid. The most valuable resource IMO is time. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hal Nail Posted February 25, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 25, 2020 Interesting that we all have different aspects we enjoy within the ame hobby. I prefer painting and weathering so have sold off a lot of unbuilt kits and picked up rtr and built kits, usually where someone's made a pigs ear of the finish so I get them cheap! Doesnt matter if I'm stripping them anyway. That said, the ones I've built myself are still more satisfying and will gradually replace those I've bought I expect. Btw 30 years in and absolutely no hint of a baseboard, let alone track! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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