Ordering

[HerbertFrederick]

Would it be unreasonable to think that an item which a retailer states in stock should be sent relatively quickly? Card details given, postage rate unknown but suggested at a reasonable price yet payment not taken a day later.

[AY Mod]

How can anyone give a meaningful answer without any specific references? 

 

There could be a multitude of reasons; are we just supposed to guess and you tell us when we give an answer that you assume to be correct? 

 

Why don't you just ask the seller and save us guessing? 

[Dungrange]

21 minutes ago, HerbertFrederick said:

Would it be unreasonable to think that an item which a retailer states in stock should be sent relatively quickly? Card details given, postage rate unknown but suggested at a reasonable price yet payment not taken a day later.

 

Yes, it is unreasonable to think that.  Are you talking about a relatively small retailer, who is possibly attending a model railway exhibition this weekend (Model Rail Scotland opened this morning, so many retailers would have been travelling yesterday) and who therefore doesn't always have the staff available to simply process an order the day that you place it?  Perhaps it's a small retailer who has a couple of staff off sick and therefore struggling to process on-line orders with a reduced number of staff whilst also serving shop customers.

 

Why do so many people seem to think they have an entitlement to receiving something immediately?

[AY Mod]

1 minute ago, Dungrange said:

Yes, it is unreasonable to think that. 

 

Aww, you went and gave him the useful and meaningful answer he sought. Spoilsport.

[MarkSG]

42 minutes ago, HerbertFrederick said:

Would it be unreasonable to think that an item which a retailer states in stock should be sent relatively quickly? Card details given, postage rate unknown but suggested at a reasonable price yet payment not taken a day later.

 

Are you sure you actually confirmed the order? Every online retailer I've ever used has told me how much delivery will cost before I click "pay". In fact, that's actually a legal requirement. So if you didn't get to the point where the delivery costs were added to the order, you probably haven't got as far as the point of actually placing the order.

[Dungrange]

9 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

Spoilsport.

 

Sorry - it just annoys me when some people seem to think the world should revolve around them. 

 

Back in 'the good old days' things used to be advertised as 'please allow 28 days for delivery'.  Now some people seem to think that if their order isn't processed in less than 24 hours then they should have a moan about poor service.

[Hroth]

12 minutes ago, Dungrange said:

Why do so many people seem to think they have an entitlement to receiving something immediately?

 

Because in the old days, a company wouldn't even think about packaging an item until the cheque had cleared.  Now people have become accustomed to the instant transmission and payment of orders and seem to expect goods to be sent out in a similar manner without considering the logistics of shipping a physical item.

 

Perhaps retailers should go back to the old mantra "Please allow 28 days for delivery..."

 

@ Dungrange: You beat me to it!

[MarkSG]

To be fair, expectations do change, and for an item which is in stock at an online retailer, then it would be normal these days for it to have gone through the "three Ps" (picked, packed and posted) by the end of the next working day after placing the order. And if that isn't possible then I would expect an email from the retailer explaining that there will be a delay. After all, we don't have to wait for cheques to clear these days - payment by card (or Paypal) online is instant.

 

But the working day after placing the order is, of course, is still within "a day later". Same day dispatch is a lot harder and would be unreasonable to expect in many cases. A lot of smaller retailers simply batch up the work in day by day chunks, so Monday's orders are dealt with on Tuesday morning, Tuesday's on Wednesday morning and so on. Having an Amazon-style continuous order processing system involves a lot more investment. There's nothing unreasonable about not having the item dispatched until the day after the order.

 

 

[SweenyTod1]

On the news today it was reported that many companies worldwide are affected by the Coronavirus. Many of our consumer goods, including our model supplies originate from China. Perhaps UK retailers are experiencing delays now and certainly in the near future, so we will have to be patient, tolerant and understand the bigger picture. Closer to home, we have had a severe battering from the recent storms and subsequent flooding (still on going), so again, deliveries will be affected whether there are problems in your area or not. Let's hope normality returns soon for ALL concerned, mail order being way down the list of priorities!

Tod

[Dungrange]

3 hours ago, MarkSG said:

To be fair, expectations do change.

 

Agreed.  I wouldn't be too impressed if an on-line order of an in-stock item took 28 days to arrive.  As you say, times have changed: things like cheque clearance are no longer the constraint that they once were, so it is realistic to expect quicker delivery that 20 years ago.  However, some things haven't changed.  I'll guess that it takes as long to wrap a parcel today as it did 20 years ago.  It takes the same length of time to read the items off an order and go and pick the items (unless we're talking about a major retailer with an automated stock picking system).

 

4 hours ago, MarkSG said:

 If that isn't possible then I would expect an email from the retailer explaining that there will be a delay.

 

Really?  I wouldn't. Not after only one day unless I had selected and paid for next day delivery or some other premium delivery option that implied I was in a rush to receive the goods.  It takes time to send an e-mail and the reason that the order hasn't been processed is because the retailer hasn't had the time to process the order, whether that's staff sickness, attending an exhibition or any similar reason.  What is a reasonable time to expect an order to be processed?  I think that very much depends on the retailer.  Ordering off the website of a multinational company such as Amazon who employ hundreds of staff, I'll expect quicker order processing and dispatch than if I place an order with J Smith's Kits and Bits.  Small businesses are often run with few staff and the person who processes the on-line orders may just work part-time.  As such, whilst I'd be happy for my order to be processed within one working day, I wouldn't be complaining until maybe four or five days with no contact had passed.

[Dungrange]

4 hours ago, MarkSG said:

Are you sure you actually confirmed the order? Every online retailer I've ever used has told me how much delivery will cost before I click "pay". In fact, that's actually a legal requirement. So if you didn't get to the point where the delivery costs were added to the order, you probably haven't got as far as the point of actually placing the order.

 

I think this is a good point - did you actually get an e-mail confirming your order?   That should give you your order number so that you can contact the retailer to enquire about the status of your order.  I would expect that confirmation e-mail to state the items ordered and the total cost including postage, so if you don't know how much your order cost (including postage) then there is a chance that you haven't actually ordered anything.  

[Robin Brasher]

I ordered my LSWR 10T goods brake van no12424 on 27th September 2014 and I have still got no idea when it will be delivered but at least my credit card has not been debited.  

[Andy Hayter]

5 hours ago, MarkSG said:

 

Are you sure you actually confirmed the order? Every online retailer I've ever used has told me how much delivery will cost before I click "pay". In fact, that's actually a legal requirement. So if you didn't get to the point where the delivery costs were added to the order, you probably haven't got as far as the point of actually placing the order.

 

Not always true Mark.  Being outside of the UK I often have to accept that "postage will be charged at cost" without knowing what cost is.  The orders are nevertheless accepted and the first I know is when the goods arrive with a credit card slip.

[Robin Brasher]

I ordered a Dapol 6 wheel LMS Stove Van from a magazine and a Bachmann Horse Box from a model shop: both reproduction Hornby Dublo vans. In both cases the first I knew that they had arrived was when I looked at my monthly credit card statement.  I contacted both organisations and they said that they had been overwhelmed by demand and it was taking them a long time to post them, My view is that they should not take the money until they are about to post the goods but it is reasonable for the customer to wait for about a week. When the delay amounts to a month I think it is an unreasonable delay because the organisation will know how many models they have ordered and how many staff they will need to dispatch the goods or to telephone the customers to explain the delay.

[MarkSG]

10 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

My view is that they should not take the money until they are about to post the goods

 

That's only possible if the retailer stores the credit card number and then charges it when they are ready to dispatch. And that is something that only the bigger retailers can legitimately do, as it requires compliance with the PCI-DSS standard of card security that is difficult and expensive to implement. It is unreasonable to expect smaller retailers to do this, as they won't have the resources to do it legitimately and you really don't want them to bend the rules and do it illegitimately!

 

Some payment gateway systems offer an intermediate option whereby the funds are reserved (or pre-authorised) against the card and then only confirmed when the retailer indicates that the order is ready to be fulfilled. But that's really just an accounting trick; the payment is effectively taken from the card when the order is placed but will be invisible to the customer until the order is confirmed. It will make no real difference to the customer at all. And some payment gateways don't offer this option at all. Unsurprisingly, the gateways which don't offer it tend to be cheaper, and therefore more likely to be chosen by small businesses.

[MarkSG]

1 hour ago, Dungrange said:

Really?  I wouldn't. Not after only one day unless I had selected and paid for next day delivery or some other premium delivery option that implied I was in a rush to receive the goods.  It takes time to send an e-mail and the reason that the order hasn't been processed is because the retailer hasn't had the time to process the order, whether that's staff sickness, attending an exhibition or any similar reason. 

 

It should be automated. Every off-the-shelf online shopping cart software system that I've ever seen has the ability to send automated emails to customers according to various triggers, including an "I'm sorry, but your order has been delayed" email when the order hasn't been dispatched within a predefined time (typically, one or two working days) after the order is confirmed. And if a retailer is writing their own software (or paying someone to write bespoke software) then that's trivial to build in.

[kevinlms]

20 hours ago, HerbertFrederick said:

Would it be unreasonable to think that an item which a retailer states in stock should be sent relatively quickly? Card details given, postage rate unknown but suggested at a reasonable price yet payment not taken a day later.

Not sure I understand what the problem is.

 

You have not been charged for goods not sent yet, where is the difficulty?

 

Lots of other threads on RMweb, from people where they have paid for goods from would be suppliers, yet they have not been sent, sometimes for weeks/months/years. Now that is a far more significant issue.

 

There can be many reasons, why a supplier doesn't send goods, even if apparently in stock, IMMEDIATELY.

 

Why not wait a week and if still not sent, cancel the order and go to someone you consider as reputable?

[kevinlms]

18 hours ago, SweenyTod1 said:

On the news today it was reported that many companies worldwide are affected by the Coronavirus. Many of our consumer goods, including our model supplies originate from China. Perhaps UK retailers are experiencing delays now and certainly in the near future, so we will have to be patient, tolerant and understand the bigger picture. Closer to home, we have had a severe battering from the recent storms and subsequent flooding (still on going), so again, deliveries will be affected whether there are problems in your area or not. Let's hope normality returns soon for ALL concerned, mail order being way down the list of priorities!

Tod

Agreed, I have ordered a part for my lawn mower and after 3 weeks, it's still pending "Awaiting Fulfilment".

 

I would guarantee that the problem is that it has to come from China, but is held up due to the Coronavirus. I must follow up to find out what the delay actually is.

 

Meanwhile, the grass is growing like crazy, as we have had a fair bit of rain, along with warmish weather in Australia. However, I don't see that me getting onto social media and having a rant, is going to help.

[The Johnster]

On 21/02/2020 at 15:53, Dungrange said:

 

Yes, it is unreasonable to think that.  Are you talking about a relatively small retailer, who is possibly attending a model railway exhibition this weekend (Model Rail Scotland opened this morning, so many retailers would have been travelling yesterday) and who therefore doesn't always have the staff available to simply process an order the day that you place it?  Perhaps it's a small retailer who has a couple of staff off sick and therefore struggling to process on-line orders with a reduced number of staff whilst also serving shop customers.

 

Why do so many people seem to think they have an entitlement to receiving something immediately?

Because they have to pay for it immediately.  In an age of instantaneous cash transfer and electronic stock control, it should take no longer than the actual postal or parcel service delivery time.  Some companies manage this, next day delivery by first class mail, as a matter of course, and some take a fee days.  Others, well...

Edited February 22, 2020 by The Johnster

[PMP]

You can easily see those whom have little appreciation of the time taken and required by retailers and small suppliers in particular, to service their customers. 
If Mr Smith needs an average of 6 minutes to process every order, he only needs 10 orders to take an hour of his day. If something is out of stock he needs to deal with whatever process he has for that, eg ignore/back order/offer alternative. Then he has to answer the emails and phone calls, and then he has to go to the post office and get the stuff in the mail. And if he’s actually the manufacturer, he has to make the widgets he’s selling, and package them. He has to make sure he has the materials in place to make the widgets too. Perhaps he has to design and tool new widgets too, to stay in business, and maybe travel to an exhibition, to sell those widgets. Then they might have to do day care for an elderly relative, child care for youngsters, self care for themselves. But #### all that, I’ve paid, I want it now.

 

Some of the above is based on personal experience, having run a mail order department in the past. Interestingly I’ve done two mail orders recently, one yesterday, arrived today. The other, ordered mid December, delivery in mid February. Both took money at order. Apart from one or two traders, we have been exceptionally fortunate with the service levels we get within the hobby, it’s time people started realising that.

[MarkSG]

Next day delivery (or, more accurately, same day dispatch, as once it's out of the door you can't control how long it will actually take to get there) is one of those things that, possibly a little counter-intuitively, is easy for big businesses, and also easy for very small ones, but very hard for everyone else in the middle.

 

For a very small trader, taking only a handful of orders a day, it's relatively simple to do them pretty much as they come in and then drop them off at the post office at the end of the working day. So they'll typically arrive the following day.

 

But that doesn't scale. Once you're dealing with more orders than you can personally carry to the post office at the end of the day, you need a different system. And if you're taking enough orders for the online retail to actually be a business, rather than just pin money (or a sideline to a different business, such as manufacturing things), you'll definitely be at this level.

 

So what you do then is you have a contract with a carrier (typically Royal Mail, still, as they're usually the cheapest until you get much larger) who, instead of you taking the orders to them, will call at your business and collect them, once a day. It's a lot less hassle for you as a trader. But the downside is that the once a day collection tends, typically, to be in the early afternoon.

 

What that means is that, unless an order comes in early in the morning, the chances of it getting out the same day are pretty low. If it misses the collection, it definitely won't go out the same day.

 

That's why, as I said earlier, a lot of small-to-medium online traders work on a daily batch system, whereby Monday's orders are picked and packed on Tuesday morning (and collected by the carrier Tuesday afternoon), Tuesday's orders on Wednesday morning, etc. So long as you're not overwhelmed with sudden peaks in demand, you can usually scale that up simply by adding more staff, so it's a system that grows with the business. But it does mean you can't offer same day dispatch, because the schedule simply doesn't allow for it.

 

That doesn't change until you are big enough not just to get a carrier to collect from you rather than you taking it to them, but for you to be able to tell your carrier when you want them to collect. Because it's only when you can get your carrier to do a pickup after your close of day's trading that you can reliably offer same day dispatch. The later you can get the pickup done, the later your cut-off for same day dispatch. Amazon will, in some cases, do it almost up to midnight. More typically, 4pm tends to be a common cut-off time for same day dispatch. But the number of businesses big enough to do this is small, and I'd guess that even fewer of them are selling the sort of things that RMwebbers buy. Hattons and Rails don't normally do same day dispatch, and if they're not, I doubt if anyone else in our field is reliably doing it either.

[Dungrange]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Because they have to pay for it immediately.  In an age of instantaneous cash transfer and electronic stock control, it should take no longer than the actual postal or parcel service delivery time.  Some companies manage this, next day delivery by first class mail, as a matter of course, and some take a fee days.  Others, well...

 

But in this case it hasn't actually been paid for immediately, which seems to be the problem. 

 

I agree that many companies manage next day delivery by first class mail as a matter of course, but I think it's wrong to expect that of all companies all of the time.  It depends very much on the size of the business.  The Original Poster hasn't told us what business he's got an issue with so we don't really know.

 

Large companies employ dozens of people who spend all day picking and packing orders and they do nothing else.  However, as PMP and MarkSG have stated above, smaller businesses will have far fewer staff and those staff that they do have will have a range of tasks competing for their time.  If a member of staff in a business with just three or four staff is ill, dealing with a death of a parent, or can't get to work because of flooding or whatever, then that's going to have a more significant impact than someone being off sick in a much larger organisation.  There is much less scope for someone else to simply take on all of the additional tasks.