You pays your money you takes your choice, modern OO locos and their price

[18B]

As someone seemingly quite happy with the likes of the Hornby Class 25 which can be picked up for £30 or so second, can really the cost of the new Bachman Class 24/1 at £159:95RRP really be justified?

 

Of course, it is a vastly superior model, but really?

 

It's the same with the new MkI and MkII carriages, the are absolutely superb but are they really worth their money, well they are to those who purchase them.

 

IMHO, the balance of cost to accuracy and reasonability was achieved somewhere between the Hornby Class 25/Dapol Class 56/Lime 101 and the Bachman Blue Ribbon range..... after that prices and the level of detail, while great, started to become hard to justify.....

 

Affectively, a pair of Class 24/1s is near on the equivalent to a of 8, 9 or 10 Lima and Hornby locos old, I guess its a question of quality of quantity....?

[andyman7]

Well the title says it all, I have quite a few modern superdetail locos but admit to enjoying detailing/improving Lima/Hornby diesels/electrics from the 80s and 90s for a fraction of the cost. I tend to leave superdetail models as they are as I don't like messing around with £150 models but something picked up for £20 - no worries!

[James Makin]

I think the sweet spot was around 10-15 yrs ago when we had the new-era models for prices maxing out at the sub-£70 barrier, having experienced old Hornby and Lima locos from late 1990s era model railways, the pancake and Ringfield motors were almost universally awful for low speed shunting, and I sought to sell or remotor everything I had and replace with new-age Heljan and Bachmann, and new-gen Hornby equivalents where possible. 

 

Often you’d encounter people that’d swear that some Lima or Hornby Ringfield motors were good examples but I certainly never came across one!! 

 

So for me, I’d still pay out for a new loco over an old-generation example, purely for the running qualities - if a loco’s rubbish to drive then what’s the point in having it, was my thought when selling off my old-gen stuff!

 

I don’t mind paying the current prices if it represents good value - i.e. new features, innovation and upgrades, such as the Bachmann ‘90’. Where it doesn’t sit so well is the price rises in identical models produced 15 to 20 years ago (think Bachmann 66, Hornby 60) with no real change to the models, that are priced more than 2.5 times the original going rate back in the day! Thankfully plentiful supply of used models mean that if you’re prepared to scout around then you can still get stuff at decent prices, making it that bit more satisfying! 

 

I’m happy to compromise more on other stock, for example I’ve a rake of the early incorrect Hornby Mk2E coaches bought for £17 each discounted to clear, I’m happy to rebuild the chassis on each of these rather than spend £45+ on new Bachmann Mk2Fs to represent my Virgin XC loco hauled sets. 

 

Sometimes there’s a trade off, I broke my own rules and bought a brand new loco last year - the Bachmann Mainline Blue 37055, it saved me hours of modelling time converting a different loco to represent ‘055, but at the same time it still cost me over £148 (even with retailer discount) and I feel a bit guilty when thinking about the price, but it does make you cherish the loco a bit more compared to back in the day when you could come home from a show with three or four new locos poking out your bags!!

 

Cheers,

James

[Andy Hayter]

Everyone will have their own break point of detail versus cost.  It will depend on budget, eyesight and expectation - among others. 

 

I remember in the 80s doing a cut and shut with two H0 locomotives costing around £50 each at a time when a Hornby Scotsman could be had for around £25.   Believe me it was nerve wracking doing the alterations.  

 

I have in the last 10 years bought 3 H0 pacific locos (that I won't be cutting or shutting) that I could not have replicated to the same standard at any sensible price.  Total cost = 6 large 00 diesel locos at full price - standard discount.

 

So I am lucky regarding my budget.  I do however appreciate that many are not so fortunate and then they have to make do with an 80s second hand model - perhaps detailed, perhaps re-liveried.  

 

There are many (like me before I retired), who were cash rich and time poor.  It was easier to purchase the expensive final model than to buy a cheaper version and spend time (and let's not forget extra cost) doing upgrades and repaints let alone cut and shuts.

 

 

[DCB]

The cost of locos must be off putting to people considering entering the hobby.   Just looking at the prices in Antic's window in Stroud the other day was quite eye opening, probably counter productive, it certainly put me off going in.   I guess its mark ups, I am used to the Motor trade where mark ups are generally quite small but turnover can be quite swift as in sell before you buy, by contrast I am trying to shift some old stock watches where the mark up from new was 50%,   If you can't shift the volume you have to make more per unit to stay in business, both manufacture and retail. 

Then again many modellers buy stuff, run it once and stick it back in the box or display cabinet and "Enjoy" owning stuff.   In my case they buy it, it doesn't work properly, I fix it and it goes in the display cabinet because it neither stays on the rails nor pulls anything.

For me the golden age was the 1970/80s when you could buy a right pigs ear like the Hornby Hall and make it look like a half decent  model with new wheels, repaint, etched plates shortened smokebox and front frames, close coupled tender etc .  Ok the mods cost twice as much as the loco but there was a sense of pride in having something different.  My Airfix castle had a Hawkesworth Tender, double chimney and 5013 series front cylinder cover when all you could buy was 4073 in GW livery, and my Manor was Lined Green when you could only buy unlined.  However they must have shifted shed loads of those base models at around half the real inflation adjusted price of the modern stuff, and the model shop flogged the wheels and transfers.

As long as we have decent entry level stuff at affordable prices I suppose it will be OK.    Except looking at the Hornby 14XX, we dont. It needs a motor and a comet chassis.....

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Depends what you want. My core interest is the steam to diesel transition, and new RTR OO 4W wagons are now pricing themselves off my buy list. I can bash RTR, and kit and scratch build for much, much less so they no longer are the value they once were. Happily there are plenty of kits and a mountain of good s/h RTR 'feedstock' which I mine regularly. Coaches though, I cannot match the glazing and paint finish, so will still buy those that suit, new if necessary, s/h if available.

 

Likewise locos, steam and diesel: I cannot build anything but small black locos to an acceptable standard, so anything of interest in a green livery is going to be purchased, and moreover anything small and black of interest that works out definitely cheaper than a kit build - and that's generally true of RTR OO locos - will win a purchase. The choice we now get, in a quality that was once only attainable by a skilled DIY builder and painter, still represents value. (I put the brakegear on a 4mm 9F once: having done that I know the Bach model is worth every penny!) If Accurascale bring off the class 55 to the level they are aiming at, I am in: simply cannot match that by DIY and it is essential for the ECML, and I would like 'better' for the mighty drone. (Early Derby type 2, meh. Ugly lump that looked like it had smacked into a wall, and the first Bachmann release has that character alright, so who needs an upgrade?)

 

And there is a plenitude of s/h available, and an intrinsically good model that has been looked after, possibly barely run, can often be had for a good price, with patience. Picked up near half the RTR loco models I own s/h, all of them 2000 or later introductions, for the saving this represents.

[The Johnster]

I have 13 locos in service at the moment, 12 of which are the current tooling mech.  Most are s/h, and I have not paid full price for any of the new ones.  I am happy with all of them and consider them value for money.  Good slow running is of primary importance to me, and all of my locos are capable of it.  
 

It will no doubt come as a surprise to anyone that frequents this forum that I am going to buy a Bachmann 94xx as soon as it is available; the current rrp of this is £129.95, which will be twice what I have ever paid for a loco.  My wallet will howl in protest, but I’ll be happy enough.  Prices are rising in China because their workers rightly deserve decent wages to buy nice things with, and because demand for factory production slots exceeds supply, and because investors in RTR companies deserve a reasonable return for the risk they take. This is the immutable law of supply and demand.  I don’t get the impression that anyone is making unreasonable profits, and take the view that what it costs is what it costs, and that if I can’t afford it I can’t have it; the world does not owe me a living!

[PatB]

As with many equipment based pastimes (I have greater or lesser involvement in motorcycling, cycling, sailing and model aircraft, in addition to railway modelling, which might go some way ho explaining my lack of significant progress in any of them), there are a couple of different approaches with regard to budget.

 

There are the folk with generous budgets, whether because they're affluent or because they're prepared to make greater sacrifices in other areas. They sink substantial resources into obtaining the latest and greatest equipment because, well, it's the best, or because it's the only available way to achieve the goals they've set themselves. Much of what they pay for is, admittedly, very nice indeed.

 

Then there are those at the other extreme who have much lesser budgets, but recognise that they can still have a lot of fun by setting themselves more modest goals, using older (ie unfashionable and, consequently, cheap) tech, applying a bit of ingenuity, scouring eBay/Gumtree/secondhand sales, learning to do as much as possible themselves and, perhaps most importantly, ignoring the online chorus telling them that it can't/shouldn't be done that way.

 

 Most, of course, will follow a path somewhere between the two. As long as everybody enjoys themselves, does it really matter? Not to those already established, perhaps, but I do think it's important that beginners to be able to see that the first approach is not the only one, and that, in a model railway context, they might be able to have some fun with a couple of old Hornby Jinties, some generic maroon coaches, a handful of dodgy 70s/80s wagons, a basic DC controller and some Code 100. And often for a total cost less than a brace of modern locos.

[MartynJPearson]

I've no basis for this other than my personal view, but I do think that once the psychological 100 pound barrier was crossed, prices did seem to leap up. I've tended to shop around and look for the lesser known model shops online that may still have stock a while since items have been reduced, or have gone for second hand.

 

Hornby had the right idea with Railroad, using lower quality, lower cost items to encourage modellers on lower budgets - thinking the younger population here too - into the hobby, but the prices still seem high - it's going to be several months pocket money for a loco. What grates more is Railroad quality that is not badged as such, such as the class 156 (no lighting and still using traction tyres!!).

[Guest Half-full]

Every hobby has been getting more expensive, but every hobby is only as expensive as you want it to be

 

If you are of the 'must get it now' mindset, then yes its going to be very expensive, but if you wait a few months, shop around and are prepared to go 2nd hand then prices drop considerably

[tomparryharry]

9 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I have 13 locos in service at the moment, 12 of which are the current tooling mech.  Most are s/h, and I have not paid full price for any of the new ones.  I am happy with all of them and consider them value for money.  Good slow running is of primary importance to me, and all of my locos are capable of it.  
 

It will no doubt come as a surprise to anyone that frequents this forum that I am going to buy a Bachmann 94xx as soon as it is available; the current rrp of this is £129.95, which will be twice what I have ever paid for a loco.  My wallet will howl in protest, but I’ll be happy enough.  Prices are rising in China because their workers rightly deserve decent wages to buy nice things with, and because demand for factory production slots exceeds supply, and because investors in RTR companies deserve a reasonable return for the risk they take. This is the immutable law of supply and demand.  I don’t get the impression that anyone is making unreasonable profits, and take the view that what it costs is what it costs, and that if I can’t afford it I can’t have it; the world does not owe me a living!

 

Your post surprises me. I'd never, ever thought you'd be wanting a Bachmann 94xx!

[cypherman]

Hi all,

I do not have a layout of my own at the moment and have not had one for several years. All my stock and engines are boxed and serviced at regular intervals for the day I can rebuild. My stock covers a time from the 60's to the present day So there is a huge variation in quality and realism. I have contented my self with rebuilding and detailing all my stock plus a little bit of kit building and buying old models to enhance to a state I am happy with. I have rebuilt many of my early wagons and engines and feel that they are now as good as they can be for modern use. Now my modelling ability is only average but if I can make basically a faux silk purse(not quite good enough to be real silk....lol) out of some of the old sows ears as I have. Then any one can. The asking price for a lot of the modern stock is very expensive and many older models as has been said can be made almost as good. The real point of this is that the modern ultra detailed engines, wagons and coaches with a multiplicity small plastic bits is fine as long as you do not drop them, handle them to roughly or let the crash on your layout. Then they break. So to the question and this is where the price comes in. If you want rivet counters dream then perhaps yes the ultra high price may be justified. But if you want a reasonable facsimile of the product that you can run on your layout without being worried something is going to fall off or break  then NO it is not good value. At least Hornby do their Railroad range that is a little cheaper with some of the smaller plastic details missing and I believe that Bachmann do the same for some of their engines ( Not 100% sure of Bachmann). The question is do you really need all that extra detail. I feel that most people do not and hence the cheaper ranges put out by the big suppliers. And even if the manufacturers were to put out even more highly detailed engines out there at least some of the rivet counters out there would find something to complain about.

The only point I feel that may justify these prices is the money put into research and development of new models. And I admit that we have never had it so good with the range of engines and stock we have out at the moment.

So it as the title of this thread says. If you are willing to pay a lot of money for a few small extra plastic details and possibly a slightly better motor then it is up to you. But bear this in mind for every high detailed engine you buy that is one less engine that you will buy those nice little extra detailing parts from a 3rd party producer. Keep doing that and do not be surprised if over time they start to shut up shop as they cannot make a profit. A simple comparison is that you can buy everything you want from a modern day supermarket and most people do. What has happened is that by that we have virtually killed of the high street. This could and may well happen to our 3rd party manufacturers.

Ok ramble over. 

 

PS I remember even as a child in the 60's and 70's that the price of engines and stock always seemed very high to me, But I was lucky in that my parents were fairly well off and I got a lot of stuff I wanted for my railways at Christmas and birthdays, Plus when my father came home on shore leave. So it maybe nice to see how modern prices compare with the older prices in relationship to current and past wages. This doe not change my feelings that they are still overpriced today. just a thought

Edited February 22, 2020 by cypherman

[John Tomlinson]

I'd agree with much of the above, being someone who now buys almost entirely on sale or second hand. For many of us who've been in the hobby a long time, £100 was definitely a big psychological barrier, and one that I've broken on no more than a handful of occasions. I'm also very keen on improving/ detailing/ personalising something I've bought, as well as actually making things, so I'm not terribly interested in having the latest "must buy" item and keeping it pristine.

 

I think you have to chuck into the mix the current obsession for having whatever is new, be it 'phones, computers whatever, almost irrespective of whether or not you will have a practical use value for the "benefits" the new item includes. It seems to me that much of our consumer culture is based on the proposition fostered by the marketing men that whatever we have isn't good enough, a friend, neighbour, acquaintance, work colleague, whoever has a better one and we've failed as human beings if we don't strive to own one too! In other words we're continually being made to feel insecure. Now, I suspect a fair few railway modellers are a bit on the eccentric side, and less inclined to follow societal norms - and good for us! - but we aren't totally impervious either.

 

So much as I'm sure the bespoke offerings from SLW or Accurascale are fantastic models, and clearly enough people buy them to be viable, I'll be sticking to my old Bacchy 24's and Deltics,  detailed up and personalised, and bought yonks ago for a fraction of the price!

 

John.

Edited February 22, 2020 by John Tomlinson
typo

[Joseph_Pestell]

As someone who was involved in French HO commercially 25 years ago, I am not that shocked by current 00 prices. They are still only about where we were at for HO twenty years ago. We have been rather lucky in the UK.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

1 hour ago, MartynJPearson said:

Hornby had the right idea with Railroad, using lower quality, lower cost items to encourage modellers on lower budgets - thinking the younger population here too - into the hobby, but the prices still seem high  - it's going to be several months pocket money for a loco....

Which is progress. It was a whole year's pocket money in 1960, and that required cutting the grass in summer with a push along lawnmower, and making and stoking the fire in winter as core duties to spring the two bob a week from Pa.

 

1 hour ago, MartynJPearson said:

... What grates more is Railroad quality that is not badged as such...

It was the right kind of idea, but Hornby stuffed it up from the get go. I have long believed Hornby are seriously missing a trick in their marketing. They have a very clear three tier range: Ye olde stuff which ought to be an economy purchase, dated models which constitute a mid range, and some very fine items indeed which can and should attract a premium.

 

Where does the Hornby name matter most? At the bottom end. The classy stuff will sell itself, as the activity of so many new entrants competing variously in the 'better than ever' and 'never thought to see a RTR model of this' sector are demonstrating. I should have thought a 'Hornby Railroad', 'Hornby Classic/Hobby', 'Premier Line by Hornby' tiering, and no blurring the boundaries, would work well. Hornby have enough product to fill each of those tiers now.

 

10 minutes ago, cypherman said:

...for every high detailed engine you buy that is one less engine that you will buy those nice little extra detailing parts from a 3rd party producer. Keep doing that and do not be surprised if over time they start to shut up shop as they cannot make a profit...

It's a dynamic. Some will shut up shop, we can all probably name a few. But so long as this hobby exists, new specialist after-market suppliers will emerge. This was always a minority sport, and relies on individual discontent with what is available, driven by this excellent character trait:

7 minutes ago, John Tomlinson said:

... a fair few railway modellers are a bit on the eccentric side, and less inclined to follow societal norms.

 

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

 

Your post surprises me. I'd never, ever thought you'd be wanting a Bachmann 94xx!

The idea is slowly growing on me, Ian...

 

Of course I also want a Collett 31xx and a Churchward 44xx, for exactly the same reason, that they were to be found at Tondu shed in my period, but there seems little chance of either of these turning up as an RTR model any time soon  I could 'do with' another 42xx, which makes my recent purchase of a 3MT and devising a Barry duty that brings it to Cwmdimbath even more senseless, and a 5101 is a viable prospect as well; these are available RTR or are in the pipeline.  

 

The Barry duty invented for the 3MT could equally be used to excuse a Barry Taff A, which would mean finishing my ancient Nu-Cast kit off.  I have a vague future intention to kit bash a Collett 31xx, and a 44xx might be achievable from Bachmann 45xx parts and some butchery as well, but there are priorities.  When the priorities (94xx, SE chassis for 1854, 5101, A44 auto trailer and E147 B set from Comet, not necessarily in that order) are dealt with, it will be good to have proper modelling projects to keep my interest going into my further dotage, and it's not the end of the world if I never get around to them.  A good layout should never be finished,  and neither should Cwmdimbath! 

[mdvle]

16 hours ago, 18B said:

As someone seemingly quite happy with the likes of the Hornby Class 25 which can be picked up for £30 or so second, can really the cost of the new Bachman Class 24/1 at £159:95RRP really be justified?

 

First, if you are happy with the models you can get for £30 then great, enjoy the hobby.

 

Yes.

 

Tooling up a new model today, combined with the lower sales volume that can be expected to be generated from that tooling, means higher prices to cover that tooling cost over fewer sales.

 

*** IMPORTANT NOTE - this is not to say the hobby is dying - rather with 30 or so new tooled items each year while the total number of models sold is the same (or higher, there are indications the hobby is growing), each model gets a smaller piece of the overall pie ***

 

 

16 hours ago, 18B said:

IMHO, the balance of cost to accuracy and reasonability was achieved somewhere between the Hornby Class 25/Dapol Class 56/Lime 101 and the Bachman Blue Ribbon range..... after that prices and the level of detail, while great, started to become hard to justify.....

 

Affectively, a pair of Class 24/1s is near on the equivalent to a of 8, 9 or 10 Lima and Hornby locos old, I guess its a question of quality of quantity....?

 

No link, think it was a podcast, but apparently the very first issue of the US magazine Model Railroader back in 1934 had a opinion piece that the hobby was getting too expensive, and that has been a periodic theme the last 80+ years (that, and the hobby is dying, usually more a reflection that the hobby is changing in ways the person doesn't like or see).

 

As we age, we all have price points for many things that we have problems adjusting the value equation for when the products pass that point.

[The Johnster]

The hobby has been dying for at least the last 55 years to my personal knowledge.  Funny, that; it seems healthier than ever to me.  You can view current price increases as deplorable profiteering, or the low prices of the 2 or 3 decades preceding 2018 as Western companies exploiting a less developed economy in which ownership of a bicycle was aspirational for many; it doesn’t matter, either way, there is no cheap RTR any more, and never will be again.  Get over it, and follow the advice inherent in the topic title; pay your money or take your choice.  Moaning about it here won’t make any difference.  

It costs what it costs, which is more than it did!

 

[PM47079]

I have too many locos. The price rises have helped by making me be more selective in what I actually buy. I am finding the cheap Lima I used to buy for respray/detail is no longer as cheap either. People used to be pleased if you offered then £20!! 

[Silly Moo]

My last four ‘new’ locos were bought second hand for two thirds of the new price. They were all close to mint when I bought them. They were locos I really wanted but couldn’t justify buying at full price. I just waited patiently until they turned up second hand. The last one was purchased at the end of January, no doubt sold by someone who spent a bit too much at Christmas. They were bought from Facebook sales groups which seem to have a smaller following than eBay. 

[Kylestrome]

Anyone who thinks that today's prices are too high should spend some time with an online inflation calculator, such as this one:

https://www.inflationtool.com/british-pound/1980-to-present-value?amount=41

 

It would seem that a loco that costs £160 today, would have been around £40 in 1980, for instance. Whether, or not, you consider that a fair comparison for the quantum leap from Lima to Accurascale/Sutton's Locomotive Workshop level of detail/quality of running is up to you.

 

David

[sulzer27jd]

56 minutes ago, Kylestrome said:

Anyone who thinks that today's prices are too high should spend some time with an online inflation calculator, such as this one:

https://www.inflationtool.com/british-pound/1980-to-present-value?amount=41

 

It would seem that a loco that costs £160 today, would have been around £40 in 1980, for instance. Whether, or not, you consider that a fair comparison for the quantum leap from Lima to Accurascale/Sutton's Locomotive Workshop level of detail/quality of running is up to you.

 

David

 

The problem then, is not so much the rising prices but the stagnating wages making things proportionally more expensive, especially for those employed in the public sector.

[Snowdon Ranger]

Personally, I think the high levels of detail, and the much improved performance of modern releases compared to what we were offered in the past is worth the prices being asked.

 

Previously, many people would abandon British outline RTR and move to US or continental themes, purely for the increase in quality and reliability. 

 

Something to bear in mind is the fact that in the past 5-6 years the minimum wage in China has increased by around 120%, this naturally affects the price paid by the end user. 

 

Now I'm certainly no economist, but this fact coupled with the continual  increase in transportation costs, is obviously going to have a knock on effect when it comes to retail prices. 

[friscopete]

Model railways have never been cheap .No hobby is that cheap  ,they all have a cost .I do wonder if maybe its best to run a few quality products rather than  a lot of mediocre .My SP layout is a switching type layout as i really couldnt afford all those pricey passenger trains and stream liners  so just boaught some decent sound equipped switchers a while ago  .i doubt I could afford them now  and the mail rates from the USA  are just ridiculous ..My brass locos were usually cheaper than plastic ,often damaged and all needed stripping, repainting , regears and new motors .The modern brass is super expensive and even one is  more than my whole layout  put together .

[Guest WM183]

Look at the prices for steam loco models from Marklin in Europe or Broadway Limited in the US.  My 35 quid Bachmann Jinty is like.... 1/15 the price.