You pays your money you takes your choice, modern OO locos and their price

[Bernard Lamb]

4 hours ago, eldomtom2 said:

Do you have any proof that injection moulding is cheaper per unit than 3D printing, and if so how much?

I suggest you take a walk around any shop that sells household items. Take a check on how many are injection moulded and how many are 3D printed. ( If you can find any of the later). I am pretty sure that the people who put up the money to run the shop have done their homework.

How many times greater for the cost? Many times, but dependent on the relative volumes.

Keen racing cyclist use the odd printed part and the cost of these is astronomical compared with those made by conventional methods. Pure bling and very much as per the title of this thread.

Bernard

[tomparryharry]

Well, a 3D printer will lay up a part (singular) in good time, but an injection tool might have a sprue, and multiple parts  will come from the central injection 'gate'.  As 34 has said, an injection machine will run on auto, 24/7, 7 days a week. His (34) ratio of 30:1 is not unique, and possibly errs on the conservative side. 

 

A common problem is not running the machine: The largest down-time on an injection machine is changing tooling, especially if it has multiple facets.

 

A machine that is making the cups for coffee, can have a rate of 30-40 cups per second. Check out Youtube.....

 

Ian.

[Andy Hayter]

With current economics, mass production (say 1000 plus) is going to benefit from injection moulding.

For individual items, short runs, intermittent production of short runs will favour 3D printing if you can get the quality right.  

IMO this is why the Rails SECR (really SR) van has been it seems a success in 3D, but the big producers of model railways around the world still favour IM.  

[PatB]

Out of curiosity, I went on a bit of a hunt to find the size of the production run for the Rails van, and found this piece from the company who did the actual printing. https://paragon-rt.com/portfolio/rails-of-sheffield-wagon

 

The Rails van was originally a run of 600 units, with a second run of 200 further examples, so 800 in all. RRP of £28 gives a total revenue of £22,400. As a rule of thumb, a business will aim to sell an item for twice what it cost, so we reach a (very approximate) cost of £11,200 for design, setup and print costs, which sounds remarkably cheap to me. Cheap enough to make me suspect that Rails, and maybe the printers, have treated the van as an exercise in development without expectation of profit. 

[adb968008]

On 24/02/2020 at 23:47, letterspider said:

The problem with sound locos is that you are probably going to run 4 of them at a maximum but you may have to chip twenty of them

In an ideal world if you had 10 class 37's you would be able play sound on the two that you are playing with at any one time, without having to remove and reinsert the chips between them- or the terribly expensive alternative of 10 sound chips.

This is where the market place would be crying for an innovative solution -

 

I use DC, and a miniature bluetooth speaker, hidden in a brake van or bg.
Then play sounds using Youtube or personal recordings.

I can play unlimited infinite sounds for hours on a single charge, the iphone will overlay multiple sounds at the same time (and occasionally the phone rings and I have a conversation via the BG whilst on the move).

 

All i need to fit this out is a mixing desk app of prerecorded sounds and map it to train speeds in an App... i’m hoping Hornby is going to bring it, if not i may just write the app myself.

 

Edited February 29, 2020 by adb968008

[adb968008]

14 hours ago, PatB said:

Out of curiosity, I went on a bit of a hunt to find the size of the production run for the Rails van, and found this piece from the company who did the actual printing. https://paragon-rt.com/portfolio/rails-of-sheffield-wagon

 

The Rails van was originally a run of 600 units, with a second run of 200 further examples, so 800 in all. RRP of £28 gives a total revenue of £22,400. As a rule of thumb, a business will aim to sell an item for twice what it cost, so we reach a (very approximate) cost of £11,200 for design, setup and print costs, which sounds remarkably cheap to me. Cheap enough to make me suspect that Rails, and maybe the printers, have treated the van as an exercise in development without expectation of profit. 

Interesting article, This quote makes me excited...

Quote

The plans are to print more wagons, carriages and engines with an ongoing cycle of design, sampling and production.

3D is the future of niche modelling, when combined with rtr quality painting and printing.

 

I think it would be further enhanced with modern pre-painted kits, but ultimately we need 3D printing to incorporate finer printing and painting... the tech will get there, but not yet.

Edited February 29, 2020 by adb968008

[Ron Ron Ron]

On 25/02/2020 at 21:49, Mike Buckner said:

There might even come a time when (with "DCC Mark 2") you can download the sound files over the track overnight.

 

On 26/02/2020 at 08:18, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

.....Not in the DCC format is my guess. It's plenty obvious that this is old tech, and something vastly more capable could now be devised. But no clear successor has yet emerged.

The Ring RailPro system, a proprietary modern digital control system, provides sound files by download.

You install the decoders and download the sound files from the internet, via a PC onto the control system handset.

The sound files are then transmitted wirelessly and loaded onto to the loco decoder’s memory.

It takes a few minutes apparently.

So the tech has been there and in use on model railways for a number of years.

 

 

.

Edited February 29, 2020 by Ron Ron Ron

[NIK]

21 hours ago, PatB said:

Out of curiosity, I went on a bit of a hunt to find the size of the production run for the Rails van, and found this piece from the company who did the actual printing. https://paragon-rt.com/portfolio/rails-of-sheffield-wagon

 

The Rails van was originally a run of 600 units, with a second run of 200 further examples, so 800 in all. RRP of £28 gives a total revenue of £22,400. As a rule of thumb, a business will aim to sell an item for twice what it cost, so we reach a (very approximate) cost of £11,200 for design, setup and print costs, which sounds remarkably cheap to me. Cheap enough to make me suspect that Rails, and maybe the printers, have treated the van as an exercise in development without expectation of profit. 

Hi,

 

There is also the cost of painting, finishing, assembly and packaging in the UK. I agree it does sound cheap.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

11 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

The Ring RailPro system, a proprietary modern digital control system, provides sound files by download.

https://www.ringengineering.com/RailPro.htm

 

Not one I knew about, but then I haven't been looking! Looks promising, and there are very positive independent user reviews on various sites. It is a wholly proprietary system as far as I can see, radio control, track or onboard power, and in particular offers features appropriate to contemporary North American operations.

[Phil Parker]

On 28/02/2020 at 09:38, PatB said:

The Rails van was originally a run of 600 units, with a second run of 200 further examples, so 800 in all. RRP of £28 gives a total revenue of £22,400. As a rule of thumb, a business will aim to sell an item for twice what it cost, so we reach a (very approximate) cost of £11,200 for design, setup and print costs, which sounds remarkably cheap to me. Cheap enough to make me suspect that Rails, and maybe the printers, have treated the van as an exercise in development without expectation of profit. 

 

Which isn't news to BRM readers as the said as much in the interview we had in the mags months ago...

[PatB]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Which isn't news to BRM readers as the said as much in the interview we had in the mags months ago...

Fair enough, but as my mag buying budget is zero, I have to wait until 3.30 pm on the last day of our (only) annual exhibition to scavenge what the secondhand stall is giving away, so I won't get to see that for at least 3 months yet :D. And then I'll probably find it was in an issue that someone's cut all the interesting bits out of, leaving an editorial and half an out of date Hattons ad. 

[tomparryharry]

18 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Interesting article, This quote makes me excited...

3D is the future of niche modelling, when combined with rtr quality painting and printing.

 

I think it would be further enhanced with modern pre-painted kits, but ultimately we need 3D printing to incorporate finer printing and painting... the tech will get there, but not yet.

 

I think you're probably right. There is- are a lot of niche product going about just now, just awaiting  my wallet. To those whom engage in making Great Western auto trailers in 4mm, may I proffer my aploogies. Yes, I would like a matchboard trailer. And yes, there is one on the catalogue. But! I haven't the room to build one, and do it justice. I will get one, along with my promised Hornby Suburbans, but they're in the queue......  

[Graham Radish]

If i was to model in OO again i would choose LIMA, some may laugh, simply because with these models you can do a lot to them to make them even better than Bachmann, its fun to do as well, you can make them your own and at a much lower cost, ie, replacing motors/adding extra detail etc. i made a thread about this im on a mission to get the best locos lima made like the excellent class 31 for example and make them run as smooth as silk, also you have a lot of room to work with in these locos meaning you can install very complicated lighting and huge DCC sound speakers, in turn i get much more satisfaction from this hobby doing things this way. 

 

But it doesn't stop there, you can even fit two motors to the larger locos,  in turn this gives a huge amount torque when pulling things like real coal/gravel. i love the idea of this and this is going to be my next venture in this hobby. to be honest for the sake of about 30 quid you can make them look bloody amazing.

[Graham Radish]

On 23/02/2020 at 15:04, Mike Buckner said:

 

 

We are a long way away from 3D printing becoming a standard production method for large volume.

Current 3D printing technology is slow.

The quality of surfaces is low, showing a distinct grainy appearance - similar to the visibly rough edges of the early dot matrix printers. Great for producing things like ballast or pebble-dashed houses.

Quality control is a major issue. Two successive prints of the same design can result in one of them being so out of true as to be useless.

The reluctance to move on from 40 year old mouldings is due to the fact that creating new tooling can cost £200,000 or so in today's money - so old tooling still has some residual value - people will still buy - if the price is right.

 

 

3D printing is a very bad idea for manufacturing things like this, its slow, inaccurate and quite frankly looks awful, it will probably take another 10 years before its as good as injection molding. trying to 3d print n gauge stuff would be hilarious, 

[Joseph_Pestell]

4 hours ago, Graham Radish said:

3D printing is a very bad idea for manufacturing things like this, its slow, inaccurate and quite frankly looks awful, it will probably take another 10 years before its as good as injection molding. trying to 3d print n gauge stuff would be hilarious, 

 

There are some perfectly good 2mm scale products being made by 3D printing. I am sure that we all agree that 3D printing is not the way to mass produce anything. But some of these models will only be wanted in tiny numbers and 3D makes it possible financially to produce these.

[great central]

2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

There are some perfectly good 2mm scale products being made by 3D printing. I am sure that we all agree that 3D printing is not the way to mass produce anything. But some of these models will only be wanted in tiny numbers and 3D makes it possible financially to produce these.

 

See this thread

 

[Graham Radish]

10 hours ago, great central said:

 

See this thread

 

But 3d printing is no good for mass production

[great central]

12 minutes ago, Graham Radish said:

But 3d printing is no good for mass production

 

Don't disagree at all on that point, but to condemn it out of hand is, in my opinion, somewhat too far as shown by models within the quoted thread.

[Atso]

12 hours ago, great central said:

 

See this thread

 

 

As the originator of the linked thread, I am flattered that you feel that my prints are of a suitable quality to be used as an example of how far 3D printing has come over the last few years. Thank you.

 

19 hours ago, Graham Radish said:

3D printing is a very bad idea for manufacturing things like this, its slow, inaccurate and quite frankly looks awful, it will probably take another 10 years before its as good as injection molding. trying to 3d print n gauge stuff would be hilarious, 

 

Graham, I’m sorry that you feel that the 3D prints you've seen look awful. As I see it that is probably down to one of two (or both) factors:

 

-        The quality of the CAD

-        The machine and/or material chosen for printing

 

All my models are printed to 1:148 scale and more recently for my own projects, printed almost exclusively on my own machine. With the machine properly dialled in, I can achieve an accuracy of better than 0.1mm which has proven sufficiently accurate to produce a completely free running (i.e. non-powered) 0-6-0 chassis which are combined with brass bearings to combat wear and tear. While I’m still working on the design of my first powered chassis, I have already seen that this is also possible by the work of others. No, my machine cannot be considered an item for mass producing models (I could in theory churn out c. 300 wagon bodies in a week), but for the £380 I paid for it new, it is an impressive and reliable bit of kit.

 

There are already 3D printers out there than can print more models in one hit and considerably faster (round an hour) but only at c. 75% of the resolution I can do. This 'limited' mass production technology (i.e. less that 1,000-1,500 units) has already been proven in the aerospace industry as well as by Rails of Sheffield in 4mm scale.

 

I would agree that we’re not quite there yet but I think it will be considerably under 10 years before this technology becomes a serious competitor for the volumes required. Also, the printer doesn’t have to print the actual model, there are other ways that 3D printing could prove useful to model railway manufacturers in the short to medium term - but not quite yet. However, I would not advocate trying to print ever component; as with everything, different materials have different strengths and weaknesses.

 

I’ll leave you with a couple of examples of what budget 3D printers are now capable of.

 

 

 

The J3s above have a free running unpowered chassis which use Peco driving wheels and coupling rods.

[Joseph_Pestell]

3 hours ago, Graham Radish said:

But 3d printing is no good for mass production

And nor was it ever intended to be. It's a bit like finding fault with a spoon for not cutting your steak. You have a knife for that.

[Ron Ron Ron]

A one piece 3D print in 1:64 scale, after decoration.

There is no added detail.

 

 

 

[The Johnster]

I imagine that the quality of 3D prints depends on the quality, and thus cost, of the printer, and my only experience of prints is GWR bogies from Stafford Road Works/Shapeways, which I use because they have integral NEM pockets, and Modelu lamps and figures  The quality of the bogies is fine, but not quite up to the standard of the best RTR such as the Collett 7' bogies on Hornby's 57' suburbans, probably the best RTR bogies I've ever seen.  The Modelu stuff is first class.

 

3D printing on domestic machines is not, I think, yet capable of the fineness of detail we want, but they are getting better and cheaper all the time.  Shapeways website is interesting if you've got a free afternoon, as is some of the pricing of what to me look like very crude and simplistic items.  It seems to be a field that lends itself to freelance modelling for some reason, but I can recommend Stafford Road's stuff (no connection happy customer) as to scale and finely detailed.  

 

I reckon some railway structures, for instance lattice signal posts or complex pipework, are particularly suited to the process.  How about a correctly detailed signal box locking room...

Edited July 9, 2020 by The Johnster

[Pete the Elaner]

Most technologies are relatively poor when new.

Were the first diesels any better than the steam locos being built around the same time?

Did the earliest digital cameras compete on image quality with 35mm film?

Did the first flat TVs match the picture quality of CRTs?

Modern DCC sound projects are much improved over what was available several years ago.

 

3d printing is improving in the same way. I never used filament 3d printers. The pixellated quality of the edges did not help to sell them to me. I was impressed with somebody's 3d printing enough to buy my own one.

Resin is different but it has its drawbacks. The finish may be a lot smoother than with filament types but it takes time & effort to remove all the supports give them a good clean then cure the prints in UV light.

 

Both filament & resin types are slow but I am now able to produce my own things like window frames to exactly the size I want ... & make them repeatable so my buildings don't look wonky.

[rockershovel]

When I first got involved with model railways, around 1970 I remember looking at the adverts for brass locos which routinely filled the back page of RM, densely printed listings, and being amazed at the prices. The Lionel “Scale Hudson” cost $75 in 1938, and I paid more for No 1 Son’s Hornby train set in about 1991 than that set sells for now.

 

these things go in cycles. 

[John Tomlinson]

Re. 3D printing, isn't the simple point that some of it is dire, some of it excellent. I mentioned on another thread that earlier this week I received delivery of an Isinglass 4mm Gresley teak coach kit, which I bought not least to see how good it was - or not! The answer is that it is of the quality in finish of injection moulded plastic, no step marks at all, and I'm sure I could just glue it together, give it a wash and then spray.

 

By contrast, some 3D printing I've seen, mainly through photos on sites like RMweb, is barely fit for purpose, and looks like blocks of concrete glued together by someone a bit drunk who didn't realise they were meant to line up!

 

What we might expect is that the overall quality improves over time, both with technological advance and producer skill. A similar scenario could be said of resin mouldings, ideal for short run kits as any bus modeller will know. Some of it is exquisite, other efforts merely fit for the bin.

 

John.