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You pays your money you takes your choice, modern OO locos and their price


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3 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

Re. 3D printing, isn't the simple point that some of it is dire, some of it excellent. I mentioned on another thread that earlier this week I received delivery of an Isinglass 4mm Gresley teak coach kit, which I bought not least to see how good it was - or not! The answer is that it is of the quality in finish of injection moulded plastic, no step marks at all, and I'm sure I could just glue it together, give it a wash and then spray.

 

By contrast, some 3D printing I've seen, mainly through photos on sites like RMweb, is barely fit for purpose, and looks like blocks of concrete glued together by someone a bit drunk who didn't realise they were meant to line up!

 

What we might expect is that the overall quality improves over time, both with technological advance and producer skill. A similar scenario could be said of resin mouldings, ideal for short run kits as any bus modeller will know. Some of it is exquisite, other efforts merely fit for the bin.

 

John.

Im personally not a fan of 3d printing, now if there was a way to do injection molding at home somehow, that would be awesome, by making molds using existing bodyshells, one or two 'good' 3d prints doesn't make up for the fact that 98% of them are crap.

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2 hours ago, Graham Radish said:

Im personally not a fan of 3d printing, now if there was a way to do injection molding at home somehow, that would be awesome, by making molds using existing bodyshells, one or two 'good' 3d prints doesn't make up for the fact that 98% of them are crap.

Whether the split is 98/ 2% "crap" to good I wouldn't know, however what it tells us is that the technique is capable of being used to produce something worthwhile. It needs someone capable doing it, and should only improve with time. Being a "fan" of it or otherwise isn't really relevant, one can only judge only on the quality of product before parting with one's dosh!

 

I'm afraid I think injection moulding at home is not, nor ever will be, on the agenda. The machines required are quite substantial, read expensive, and you have to have high quality moulds to create a commensurate product. Resin moulding, again in the hands of those skilled - think Silver Fox or Graeme King - can result in a product that even the higher end of our hobby is happy to use.

 

John.

Edited by John Tomlinson
typo
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2 hours ago, Graham Radish said:

Im personally not a fan of 3d printing, now if there was a way to do injection molding at home somehow, that would be awesome, by making molds using existing bodyshells, one or two 'good' 3d prints doesn't make up for the fact that 98% of them are crap.

 

Home injection moulding is actually a practice method as long as one accepts the limitations of what can be done at the more basic level (and the learning curve to be scaled). While my own efforts have not been successful (despite more than one attempt), I've seen the results of some very talented others using both home brewed and purchased equipment. There is an entire rake of 4 wheel coaches on Copenhagen Fields who's bodies were injection moulded 'flat pack' style and then assembled.

A hand operated moulding press can be picked up new for around £1,500 and might be able to produce a nose end or a wagon side in 4mm scale. However, tooling is the biggest hurdle to overcome. Epoxy tooling is practical with a suitable bolster to contain the injection pressures; although at the expense of crisp detail, increased draft angles and a limited shot life. There is also the ethics question about using an existing moulding as a master for an epoxy tool.

 

Will an ejection system be required? For smaller parts with limited detail probably not, but for anything more complicated, ejector pins and plate will likely be required. Alternatively, a CNC milling machine could create metal tools.

 

For a whole 4mm scale diesel body, something much more substantial would be needed - both in terms of the machine and the tooling. Shot capacity, clamping force and tool strength become the essential factors here. A good knowledge of the plastic's flow characteristics, flow speed, shot temperature, tool cooling, effective gating and venting and spru design also become much more relevant. Obviously such a machine and tooling would cost a lot more than a more basic setup.

 

Perfectly doable if you can invest the money and time to access and learn how to use the technology effectively. Resin casting is much cheaper and simpler to start achieving results; although a much slower (and messy) process than thermoplastic injection moulding.

Edited by Atso
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It seems a bit odd that people are judging the present "state of the art" in 3D printing, from experience of, or from seeing the results of hobby grade, or relatively inexpensive printers.

 

3D printing is indeed suitable and already being used for mass production of components and various items.

For example, car parts and medical equipment and supplies.

 

3D printing technology is even being applied to food. There are companies working on realistic looking, printed plant based alt-meat products (veggie steaks etc)

 

 

.

Edited by Ron Ron Ron
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3D is a developing technology that has yet to reach it's full potential.  I am of the opinion that the current situation is that printers that can produce high quality items are too expensive (as yet, but prices are coming down) to be viable for the kind of niche market production runs that our hobby requires, and that 'hobby' machines available in high street stores cannot produce fine enough prints (as yet, but quality is improving).  But I am disappointed that the lowering of prices and increase in quality have not yet combined to make the process more prevalent for our purposes yet, and think that rate of development is stalling.

 

I have little concept of the technical or practical problems that are delaying matters.

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The late Colin Binnie wrote an extensive series of articles, in the early 70s, on the process of homebrew injection moulding. I think they were published in Model Railways. However, his methods were being used to produce relatively small parts rather than whole vehicles. Examples that I can recall were curly spoke wheels, for narrow gauge wagons, and A-frames for track for a model of the Listowel and Ballybunnion Railway. These days, such parts would almost certainly be better produced with a reasonable 3-D printer. 

 

I suspect that the ready availability of Cad software and 3D printers and 3D printing services is tempting people of all levels of ability to have a go. Nothing wrong with that. I'll try most things myself. However, some are not capable of producing work to a standard suitable for commercial sale. Some will improve and some... erm... won't. This is inevitable with any process. I'm a commercial potter and I see a wide variety of standards of work in my field, and that's with materials and processes that have been around for 8000 years. 3D printing has been around for not much more than 1000th of that. It's not much time to build a pool of expertise. It's not the fault of the technique, just a natural aspect of the development process. 

Edited by PatB
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12 hours ago, Graham Radish said:

Im personally not a fan of 3d printing, now if there was a way to do injection molding at home somehow, that would be awesome, by making molds using existing bodyshells, one or two 'good' 3d prints doesn't make up for the fact that 98% of them are crap.

Have you ever seen high quality 3d printed items using materials such as titanium?

The quality is superb and the parts are used in high end vehicles and in a host of other applications.

The odd hobby item in cheaper materials that you might have come across is a very small part of the whole. I would put the ratio the other way round. if you are not a fan of 3d printing, or even not a willing user, you are going to lead a very restricted live in the future. The beauty of the process is that is now possible to produce an object that would be almost impossible to make by any other method.

Bernard

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I’ve seen the results of a commercially printed adapter plate for a survey transponder on a small ROV, a piece about the size of a saucer made of some industrial plastic. We scanned it using a Leica scanner from the survey dept, produced an autocadd drawing from that scan, emailed it to the supplier and received the part on the crew chopper, within 48 hours.

 

There was a slightly acid exchange of correspondence about this, because the part was cheap but the taxi to the airport and the chopper flight wasn’t! 

 

The actual component was indistinguishable from one machined from a single block. 

 

Edited by rockershovel
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27 minutes ago, Graham Radish said:

But whats this got to do with railway modelling?

 

I believe that this tangent has emerged, at least in part, from the following comment.

 

Quote

3D printing is a very bad idea for manufacturing things like this, its slow, inaccurate and quite frankly looks awful, it will probably take another 10 years before its as good as injection molding. trying to 3d print n gauge stuff would be hilarious, 

 

I think that the following comments have demonstrated that certain 3D printing  processes can already be used for low volume manufacturing, can turn around parts quickly and cheaply, produce components indistinguishable from other production techniques, have a good level of strength and can reach a good to excellent level of detail (even down to N gauge) - just maybe not all on one type of printer yet.

 

Given that the tooling costs for a model would cost between £30,000 and £100,000+ for a plastic model (dependant on complexity) and, depending on scale (market size) would only have a run of 1,000 -10,000 units, I think that the economic argument for the future use of 3D printing for low volume production is looking quite sound once (a.) the processes have had a few more years to be refined, and (b) once the market has accepted the viability of the process for new releases.

Edited by Atso
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Last time I was able to visit the club premises, there was someone there with some OO Gauge well wagons and some tarpaulin covers for 16t 4w wagons. Both were of a standard of not indistinguishable from injection moulding, then of a quite effective standard once painted and weathered. 

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I view 3D printing as just another tool in the armoury, like you get kits or RTR where some parts in the model are plastic, some components are etched or are cast metal, plastic and metal wires, it all comes together to make the finished article and doesn’t really matter where it came from as long as it looks decent in the finished article!

 

Gone are the old Lima days where it’s one plastic bodyshell and that’s your lot, bring all the very best respective materials together to make something truly superb :good_mini:

 

Cheers,

James

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On 12/07/2020 at 09:26, James Makin said:

I view 3D printing as just another tool in the armoury, like you get kits or RTR where some parts in the model are plastic, some components are etched or are cast metal, plastic and metal wires, it all comes together to make the finished article and doesn’t really matter where it came from as long as it looks decent in the finished article!

 

Gone are the old Lima days where it’s one plastic bodyshell and that’s your lot, bring all the very best respective materials together to make something truly superb :good_mini:

 

Cheers,

James

The funny thing is, early 90's lima bodyshells were better than any 3d print lol.

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3 hours ago, Graham Radish said:

The funny thing is, early 90's lima bodyshells were better than any 3d print lol.

I think the point was more that manufacturers at the time frequently supplied bodies with all the detail moulded in, making the model robust and cheap to produce (once the tooling was made) but without the finesse that added detail in more appropriate materials can impart. Whilst I can't quote specific examples, I suspect that shapes were also sometimes compromised by what it was possible to mould in one piece. 

 

Similarly, today with 3D printing, there are definitely some designers who are set on printing, say, a body in one piece, with as much detail as possible printed in the same shot, where the model might be better printed as a multi part kit, with detail added in wire and etched brass. I certainly think that printing relatively flat parts on a "sprue", for subsequent assembly by the modeller may yield better results in some cases. 

 

But, as I say, 3D printing is a relatively young process, which amateurs and cottage industry producers are still in the experimental stage with. There remains much to be learned about what works and what doesn't. 

 

It's also important to distinguish between what a well equipped and professional specialist can do with their million dollar machines and pro draftspeople, and what Darren from next door can produce with a bootleg copy of BodgySketch and an Aldi printer fed with strimmer line. 

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4 hours ago, PatB said:

 

It's also important to distinguish between what a well equipped and professional specialist can do with their million dollar machines and pro draftspeople, and what Darren from next door can produce with a bootleg copy of BodgySketch and an Aldi printer fed with strimmer line. 

 

Well, quite. I googled “Aldi printer” and was surprised to find that for £300 or so, you can indeed get a (very basic) 3D printer from Aldi. 

 

However .. an old friend of mine operates what might best be described as a “retirement hobby business” based on his long experience of electronic engineering and producing various test items and niche products. He has a printer which cost about £3500, and a full-featured low-spec Autocadd- lite with 3D function (about £1200). He uses this to produce various items, mostly brackets, mounting plates etc which would otherwise require a lathe, milling machine, drill press etc. with acceptable accuracy and for which finish isn’t a principal concern. He did try printing a worm gear set, but wasn’t sufficiently satisfied with the result.

 

His verdict is that it is useful for small runs, or unique items which would otherwise need to be individually fabricated or commissioned. He is clear on the point that it’s quite time-consuming, and any printed items need to be designed in from the outset. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

This has more to do with this individual seller I'm assuming, but a thousand bucks for an O-gauge A3. Personally it doesn't seem like it's thousand-dollar realistic, it kinda looks better than RtR stock but it's not enough to not instantly go "oh, that's a model".

https://www.ebay.com/itm/BASSETT-LOWKE-O-GAUGE-REFINISHED-LNER-4-6-2-CLASS-A3-LOCO-2576-The-WHITE-KNIGHT/333652544843?hash=item4daf3dcd4b:g:zhkAAOSw14dbbulR

 

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It is a lovely thing, but I personally wouldn't call it a $1K bargain.  It is made by Bassett Lowke, who were high end modellers back in the day, and as well as some catalogue items produced bespoke models to order, at prices equivalent to a lot more than this is going for.  It shows how standards, and expectations, have improved; when it was built (in coarse scale 0) this was pretty much as good as you could get.  The company did not manufacture 0 gauge locomotives, but commissioned them from outside contractors, in much the same way as modern RTR companies commission models from Chinese contractors.  Comparing it to a current production N gauge A3 shows it up in a poor light; no brake or other detail below the running plate, no glazing in the cab windows, no brake detail on the tender.  The finish on the N gauge A3 is as good as this, though the Bassett probably has the edge in terms of valve gear, sprung buffers, and scale couplings.  Move up to Hornby's 00 A3 and the gap is narrowed.

 

But, Bassett Lowke are a well known company that produced high quality, not cheap, models, and the name has a degree of cachet to collectors of such things, which accounts for the price.  Other B/L locos on 'Bay in the $ economy are comparable. 

 

What it costs is what it costs. 

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9 hours ago, lepidotos said:

This has more to do with this individual seller I'm assuming, but a thousand bucks for an O-gauge A3. Personally it doesn't seem like it's thousand-dollar realistic, it kinda looks better than RtR stock but it's not enough to not instantly go "oh, that's a model".

https://www.ebay.com/itm/BASSETT-LOWKE-O-GAUGE-REFINISHED-LNER-4-6-2-CLASS-A3-LOCO-2576-The-WHITE-KNIGHT/333652544843?hash=item4daf3dcd4b:g:zhkAAOSw14dbbulR

 

 

Does it?

 

£750 and a few people don't reckon these are very good, certainly not as refined as the Hornby 00 gauge model. But still light years ahead of that Bassett Lowke model.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/219403/heljan_h7_a3_002_class_a3_4_6_2_4472_flying_scotsman_in_lner_grass_green_with_unstreamlined_corri/stockdetail.aspx

 

 

 

Jason

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2 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Does it?

 

£750 and a few people don't reckon these are very good, certainly not as refined as the Hornby 00 gauge model. But still light years ahead of that Bassett Lowke model.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/219403/heljan_h7_a3_002_class_a3_4_6_2_4472_flying_scotsman_in_lner_grass_green_with_unstreamlined_corri/stockdetail.aspx

 

Jason

Maybe it's not seeing the numbers 4472 or 60103 on the side of the cab that's making me look more highly upon it than I would otherwise do.

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