You pays your money you takes your choice, modern OO locos and their price

[Legend]

There is no correct answer here . There are some who will pay any amount of money for a model to secure higher detail. There are other who will settle for something less at much reduced cost . It’s a wide hobby. My theory at the moment is that the latter group are in the majority but the first group make much more noise on forums such as this which tend to be for the more serious modeller .   Have a look at Youtube if you want a more typical view on prices, and it’s pretty damning .

 

For me I’ve adopted the practice of only buying models I really want  eg Caley 812 at  £199 and Hornby Scotrail HST at £261 (annoyingly  £199 in Rails today) . Everything else I can wait for and secure second hand or where slow moving stock doesn’t  sell at listed prices and are substantially discounted.  I just bought a Bachmann autotrailer at £45 compared to the £69 Bachmann initially listed at . Vote with your feet, or wallet , and the prices will  reach a natural level. Of course you have to be prepared to lose out if people actually believe the model is worth its asking price eg Scotrail DBSO . But at the end of the day it’s only a model train. Does it matter in the overall scheme of things? 

Edited February 22, 2020 by Legend

[Nearholmer]

The OP began the discussion by citing examples of models of diesel locos, and having begun to dabble again in 00 very recently, I offer a few thoughts on that:

 

Until some time as recently as, I think, the late 1990s (someone will know the exact date), UK models of diesel locos had pretty poor running characteristics for the most part, because they used motor-bogies, many of which were frankly rubbish. The Wrenn ones were pretty good runners, but expensive, the rest indifferent to poor.

 

I modelled US H0 for a period in the early 1990s, and even their cheap locos (Walthers IIRC) were far, far better than the UK ones, because they used a big motor in the centre, with universals to gear-towers in the bogies, a format that was arrived at in the US in the early-1950s I think. Their more expensive locos (Atlas) were truly superb runners.

 

Once UK diesels caught up with US ones in terms of the mechanisms and running qualities, the big bridge had been crossed. That was very,  very definitely a value for money step, even if it increased prices, because after that, they worked properly!

 

Beyond that, the cost increases have been largely down to "adding more fiddly bits", a trend that again travelled from the US. I remember buying a GP7 that had all sorts of teeny details already fitted, right down to panel lift rings, in about 1994 (Accurascale??) and being amazed by it.

 

IMO, these cosmetic improvements are much more moot in terms of value for money. Some people love all those teeny bits and the photo-exactitude that they give. Personally, I'm no longer quite so moved by them ....... they don't make the loco run any better, they are fragile, and until I get my nose practically touching the thing, I can't see them anyway!

 

What I don't know, because I have been absent from 00/H0 over the intervening period, is whether there was a point when UK diesel models had decent mechanisms, and ran as well as an Atlas loco did c1990, but hadn't yet launched-off into zillions of separately-applied bits of detailing. That would be the balance-point in terms of value that I would look for ......... people who like micro-detail can always add it at home!

[cypherman]

3 hours ago, Snowdon Ranger said:

Personally, I think the high levels of detail, and the much improved performance of modern releases compared to what we were offered in the past is worth the prices being asked.

 

Previously, many people would abandon British outline RTR and move to US or continental themes, purely for the increase in quality and reliability. 

 

Something to bear in mind is the fact that in the past 5-6 years the minimum wage in China has increased by around 120%, this naturally affects the price paid by the end user. 

 

Now I'm certainly no economist, but this fact coupled with the continual  increase in transportation costs, is obviously going to have a knock on effect when it comes to retail prices. 

Now here is an interesting thought. Could China become to expensive to produce from. if you look at it from this point of view as you mention China's wages have gone up 120%, Plus the cost of transport is also rising fast and added to the increased problems with global warming in no small part cause by air/rail and shipping of products might cause a some companies to move production back to their native countries due to environmental issues. Then we have on top of that the problems with the Corona virus causing production and transport problems. Please note that these viral outbreaks are becoming more frequent and common if you check the history books so they will probably cause more problems in the future. Be really nice to see Hornby being made in Margate again. As I said just a thought.

Edited February 22, 2020 by cypherman

[Nearholmer]

30 minutes ago, cypherman said:

Could China become to expensive to produce from

 

Of course it will eventually, the laws of economics and society dictate that.

 

Business (and we as customers) will always chase cheap labour, and exploit it. Said cheap labour will then press for better conditions, which it will gradually secure, driving up its own cost, so that it ceases to be the cheapest available, at which point business will up-sticks and move to the next cheap-labour area.

 

Until robots can do the fiddly, very fine assembly of model trains cheaper than the cheapest young-female labour on the planet*, the slow migration of production will continue. And, given that there must be millions of girls in Africa who would welcome a basic wage for doing light, if rather tedious work, my guess would be that we will see our toys produced on that continent before too long**, probably in factories where the plant, technical staff, and managers, but not the assembly workers, are Chinese.

 

I wouldn't expect much fine assembly to come back to the UK, because we are not a cheap labour country in global terms - we have the NHS, an education system, pensions, half-decent housing etc to pay for ......... what business (and without overtly recognising it, we as customers) really wants is places where none of those things is yet fully in place.

 

* toy and model trains have always, for the most part, been assembled by keen-eyed, nimble-fingered young women on very basic wages. Old photos of assembly benches at Bing, Hornby(1920-64), or Triang show pretty much the same demographic as modern photos of assembly benches in China.

 

** biggest obstacles currently being the twin evils of political instability and corruption.

 

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by Nearholmer

[PatB]

Perhaps not so much for model trains yet, but China is already too expensive for some manufacturing concerns. I was professionally interested in vehicle manufacturing 5 or 6 years ago, and quite a few manufacturers were moving at least some of their operations to India, and one or two to the more stable bits of Africa. 

[Snowdon Ranger]

2 minutes ago, PatB said:

Perhaps not so much for model trains yet, but China is already too expensive for some manufacturing concerns. I was professionally interested in vehicle manufacturing 5 or 6 years ago, and quite a few manufacturers were moving at least some of their operations to India, and one or two to the more stable bits of Africa. 

Hornby has already moved some of its production to India, at least some of the latest Airfix releases are produced there.

 

They also moved production of Humbrol paints back to the UK, due to quality issues that arose after production moved to China (it was crap). 

[Andy Mac]

Something that doesn’t really get touched on regarding ready to run models is their value.....   Yes new stuff costs a lot to buy, but by and large, retains a significant portion of its value when sold second hand...   careful buying, hold on to it for a few years and you could almost get back what you paid for it if your lucky....

[mdvle]

3 hours ago, cypherman said:

Now here is an interesting thought. Could China become to expensive to produce from. if you look at it from this point of view as you mention China's wages have gone up 120%,

 

Despite the wage increases, China is still has a significant wage advantage over western countries.  It also though offers a stable government, and hence stable business environment, something a lot of other low wage countries often don't offer.

 

3 hours ago, cypherman said:

Plus the cost of transport is also rising fast and added to the increased problems with global warming in no small part cause by air/rail and shipping of products

 

Container shipping by sea is still an insignificant cost per model.

 

3 hours ago, cypherman said:

might cause a some companies to move production back to their native countries due to environmental issues. Then we have on top of that the problems with the Corona virus causing production and transport problems. Please note that these viral outbreaks are becoming more frequent and common if you check the history books so they will probably cause more problems in the future. Be really nice to see Hornby being made in Margate again. As I said just a thought.

 

Problem - the modern, highly detailed, low production run models that the market is now producing have never been made in the US/UK/Western Europe.  They only exist thanks to the low wage country that they are made in, and will never be brought to Margate or anywhere else that is "high wage" as nobody could afford to buy the models if they were - think plastic RTR starting at $1,000 to $1,500 depending on the model (for example, Rapido steam locos already start at $500 for a Canadian prototype model, and Broadway Limited can often be not far behind for US stuff - and that is made in China prices).

 

Thus if production moves back to Margate you won't like the prices, or what you get for that price.

 

[griffgriff]

Not meaning to stoke the fire but Graham Farish locos didn't get any cheaper when production moved to China.  What we did get was superior running. 

 

What I have found irritating over the years is detail isn't detail if it's wrong. So often models have been produced with mistakes..... Don't get me wrong I enjoy correcting them but I don't enjoy pulling a £150 model apart as soon as I get home.

 

Getting back to the OP.... Many a fine model has been made from a £30 Hornby 25 but it has cost a lot more to do it.

 

Griff

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

9 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

...What I don't know, because I have been absent from 00/H0 over the intervening period, is whether there was a point when UK diesel models had decent mechanisms, and ran as well as an Atlas loco did c1990, but hadn't yet launched-off into zillions of separately-applied bits of detailing. That would be the balance-point in terms of value that I would look for ......... people who like micro-detail can always add it at home!

When Bachmann UK launched from about 1991, that brought Kader's 'Spectrum' version of the standard North American HO centre motor drive to the UK market: heavy chassis, meaty motor, flywheels, smooth, powerful and quiet; the outside wrapper an old Mainline job, the 'Peak'. It was about £30  by my recollection, price competitive with the then unpower motor bogied diesels normal in OO from Hornby and Lima.

 

I still have the two purchased back then, and stripped of bodywork and much else they work as the 'mules' for my track cleaning drag.

[Allegheny1600]

2 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

When Bachmann UK launched from about 1991, that brought Kader's 'Spectrum' version of the standard North American HO centre motor drive to the UK market: heavy chassis, meaty motor, flywheels, smooth, powerful and quiet; the outside wrapper an old Mainline job, the 'Peak'. It was about £30  by my recollection, price competitive with the then unpower motor bogied diesels normal in OO from Hornby and Lima.

 

I still have the two purchased back then, and stripped of bodywork and much else they work as the 'mules' for my track cleaning drag.

Ahem!

They might have seemed good to the UK market but in the USA, they were quite poorly regarded - both mechanisms and detailing.

Now, if Bach/Hornman had fitted Kato mechanisms, well, that would be a different story!

[Allegheny1600]

8 hours ago, mdvle said:

Problem - the modern, highly detailed, low production run models that the market is now producing have never been made in the US/UK/Western Europe.  They only exist thanks to the low wage country that they are made in, and will never be brought to Margate or anywhere else that is "high wage" as nobody could afford to buy the models if they were - think plastic RTR starting at $1,000 to $1,500 depending on the model (for example, Rapido steam locos already start at $500 for a Canadian prototype model, and Broadway Limited can often be not far behind for US stuff - and that is made in China prices).

 

Thus if production moves back to Margate you won't like the prices, or what you get for that price.

 

Roco make a good bit of stuff nowadays in Slovenia, also various other places but I think that is the main production plant.

However, I do agree, folk here wouldn't like to pay Roco prices either!

Margate prices would be even higher still.

[Crisis Rail]

Shiny new Heljan Class 27 (27029 no tank version Highland logo) very very nice -  retailed at £118 from a well known box shifter.

 

2 Weeks Later

 

Dirty  - Grime laden -  Clapped out -  Rusty profesionally weathered appearance representing 7 months of hard Scottish slog (surprisingly without spontaneously combusting)

 

Looks like its worth a tenner.

 

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Crisis Rail

[18B]

1 hour ago, Allegheny1600 said:

Roco make a good bit of stuff nowadays in Slovenia, also various other places but I think that is the main production plant.

However, I do agree, folk here wouldn't like to pay Roco prices either!

Margate prices would be even higher still.

 

"rocco", what a performer...

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

1 hour ago, Allegheny1600 said:

...They might have seemed good to the UK market but in the USA, they were quite poorly regarded - both mechanisms and detailing.

Now, if Bach/Hornman had fitted Kato mechanisms, well, that would be a different story!

Oh quite. The point is that even at this standard they left the contemporary RTR OO product for dead, it was so unimaginably poor on the mechanism front in particular, and the bodywork and general construction wasn't that much better. (Hornby and Lima at the time were engaged in what I characterise as a  'death spiral' competition to see which could get away with inflicting the worst mechanisms on UK RTR OO purchasers. The award went to Hornby by the narrowest margin; which company then savaged Lima by a brisk switch to competent and proven HO mechanism designs, provided by the engagement of Sanda Kan as manufacturing partner.)

 

The refinement of RTR HO mechanisms is still very slowly seeping into OO. (Thankfully the advent of DCC means that good on track performance can now be cudgelled out of the more basic mechanisms.) Plenty of room remains in the way of proven HO technique which will be improvements in RTR OO: new competitors are using this to gain a foothold by offering 'better' in multiple respects.

[The Johnster]

10 hours ago, mdvle said:

the modern, highly detailed, low production run models that the market is now producing have never been made in the US/UK/Western Europe.  They only exist thanks to the low wage country that they are made in, and will never be brought to Margate or anywhere else that is "high wage" as nobody could afford to buy the models if they were - think plastic RTR starting at $1,000 to $1,500 depending on the model (for example, Rapido steam locos already start at $500 for a Canadian prototype model, and Broadway Limited can often be not far behind for US stuff - and that is made in China prices).

 

Thus if production moves back to Margate you won't like the prices, or what you get for that price.

Sort of, but another factor is at play; CAD.  This post dates the move of high quality production to China, and could make production in the West less unprofitable than it was 30 years ago, retaining quality.  But we don't have a good track record in this respect!

[Mike Buckner]

A factor in this debate is DCC. Most of us have, in practice, a finite limit to spend on our hobby.

Some of us use DCC, which is not cheap, especially if you have a large loco roster. This diverts some money away from other items such as locos and rolling stock, which reduces demand for those items, probably contributing to an increase in price.

[letterspider]

Tin plate models were replaced by plastic injection moulding, since when the only developments in the body work has been finer detailing in the moulds and addition of separate details such as glazing and handrails.

3d printing will become the dominant method of production. It is inevitable because it provides excellent detail, avoids manufacture, quality control and storage of large, expensive and time limited moulds. 

It will require a new manufacturer to break through with the technology as the big boys are heavily tied up with the methods and expertise they have already invested in.  This is why we see reluctance to move on from 40 year old mouldings.

This all assumes the demand does not decline in future years. 

What it does mean is we could see manufacturing in the Uk again send at affordable prices 

 

[letterspider]

I think the reluctance of Hornby to move away from 8 pins suggests a major rollout of TTS chips across the range

Fingers crossed the APT and 87 for example are released this year. 

[Mike Buckner]

10 minutes ago, letterspider said:

Tin plate models were replaced by plastic injection moulding, since when the only developments in the body work has been finer detailing in the moulds and addition of separate details such as glazing and handrails.

3d printing will become the dominant method of production. It is inevitable because it provides excellent detail, avoids manufacture, quality control and storage of large, expensive and time limited moulds. 

It will require a new manufacturer to break through with the technology as the big boys are heavily tied up with the methods and expertise they have already invested in.  This is why we see reluctance to move on from 40 year old mouldings.

This all assumes the demand does not decline in future years. 

What it does mean is we could see manufacturing in the Uk again send at affordable prices 

 

 

 

We are a long way away from 3D printing becoming a standard production method for large volume.

Current 3D printing technology is slow.

The quality of surfaces is low, showing a distinct grainy appearance - similar to the visibly rough edges of the early dot matrix printers. Great for producing things like ballast or pebble-dashed houses.

Quality control is a major issue. Two successive prints of the same design can result in one of them being so out of true as to be useless.

The reluctance to move on from 40 year old mouldings is due to the fact that creating new tooling can cost £200,000 or so in today's money - so old tooling still has some residual value - people will still buy - if the price is right.

 

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by Mike Buckner
spelling

[Nearholmer]

9 minutes ago, letterspider said:

3d printing will become the dominant method of production. It is inevitable because it provides excellent detail, avoids manufacture, quality control and storage of large, expensive and time limited moulds. 

It will require a new manufacturer to break through with the technology as the big boys are heavily tied up with the methods and expertise they have already invested in.  This is why we see reluctance to move on from 40 year old mouldings.

Is there yet, or can there ever be, 3D tech that can give the required finesse of finish, or knock products out at reasonable speed?

 

If not, its place will always be limited.

 

And, mechanisms don’t assemble themselves, even if detail-encrusted bodywork might if 3D can do it, so I think you might be being optimistic about taking enough labour out of the process to make UK assembly marketably cheap.

 

Kevin

[NIK]

Hi,

 

If there were just one locomotive available and in only one scale and not too detailed then maybe it could be produced by a lot of automation and the cost could be lower.

 

With so many model railway items being produced, many of specialist interest and to a very high standard of detail, keeping the costs down is difficult. Many locos and rolling stock seem to be of exhibition standard and in the case of diesel and electric locos difficult to model except by high quality plastic injection moulding.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[Phil Parker]

1 hour ago, letterspider said:

Tin plate models were replaced by plastic injection moulding, since when the only developments in the body work has been finer detailing in the moulds and addition of separate details such as glazing and handrails.

3d printing will become the dominant method of production. It is inevitable because it provides excellent detail, avoids manufacture, quality control and storage of large, expensive and time limited moulds. 

It will require a new manufacturer to break through with the technology as the big boys are heavily tied up with the methods and expertise they have already invested in.  This is why we see reluctance to move on from 40 year old mouldings.

This all assumes the demand does not decline in future years. 

What it does mean is we could see manufacturing in the Uk again send at affordable prices

 

3D printing offers no economies of scale. While a single injection mould costs a lot of money, every item produced from it costs pennies. Your 1000th 3D printed model costs the same as the first.

 

You'll also need a multi-media printer unless fine plastic handrails appeal. Even then, we are many years away from being able to print a muti-material, working chassis. Some assembly will always be necessary and the RTR makers all say that this is the largest part of any production cost.

 

Rails/Locomotion are trying 3D printed models, but these have to at the top end of the price range and only for items that will only sell in penny numbers.

[tomparryharry]

So, a 16 ton mineral wagon  in model form (00) via Bachmann, Hornby, et al will set you back approx £25.00, at least, that is the amount they like to charge....

 

By that token, how much for a wagon in VR?  

Edited February 23, 2020 by tomparryharry
Missed a letter:- Drat!

[mdvle]

4 hours ago, Allegheny1600 said:

Roco make a good bit of stuff nowadays in Slovenia, also various other places but I think that is the main production plant.

However, I do agree, folk here wouldn't like to pay Roco prices either!

Margate prices would be even higher still.

 

Slovenia also isn't Western Europe, and it's days may be numbered as the EU moves to try and deal with the wage disparities within its borders.

 

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Sort of, but another factor is at play; CAD.  This post dates the move of high quality production to China, and could make production in the West less unprofitable than it was 30 years ago, retaining quality.  But we don't have a good track record in this respect!

 

Modern CAD certainly helps, but the biggest cost is making the tooling, and then it is the assembly and finish of the models.  CAD isn't making those any cheaper.

 

And consider that the assembly of our models takes skilled labour, and thus isn't a minimum wage job.

 

2 hours ago, letterspider said:

Tin plate models were replaced by plastic injection moulding, since when the only developments in the body work has been finer detailing in the moulds and addition of separate details such as glazing and handrails.

3d printing will become the dominant method of production. It is inevitable because it provides excellent detail, avoids manufacture, quality control and storage of large, expensive and time limited moulds. 

 

People have now been saying this for about 10 years, and while 3D printing has certainly improved it is nowhere near close to duplicating the quality of injection molded plastic - at least not using machines that are reasonable in cost (and by reasonable not talking about home use reasonable).

 

But the inherent problem, even if 3D printing reaches quality parity, is that you are simply shifting the costs - instead of paying for tooling up expensive molds you are buying/leasing many, many expensive 3D printers.

 

We are still a very long way (if ever) from a £500 3D printer that matches current RTR quality.