No new TT from Hornby this year ?

[trapoint]

I was a little bit disappointed that Hornby chose not to release a new version of one their TT locomotives from the sixties as part of their 50th anniversary  celebrations this year  . Of course there are many good reasons why they did not but a new retooled version of a Britannia or class 31 would have been nice with fine scale wheels . What do you think ? .

Edited February 24, 2020 by trapoint

[MartinWales]

As one that dabbles in finescale 3mm I can only agree, but the Steampunk?

[JohnR]

I think its going to take a new entrant to make some 3mm scale stuff, before Hornby enters that market. 

[Butler Henderson]

Steampunk = existing mechanisms and chassis. TT would be whole new tooling range.

6 minutes ago, JohnR said:

I think its going to take a new entrant to make some 3mm scale stuff, before Hornby enters that market. 

Agree. IMO the problem with TT on 12mm the distortion is more apparent than OO probably because layouts are viewed down on more widely while TT on 14.2mm is too akin to 16.5mm to be I suspect commercially viable.

[NCB]

1 hour ago, Butler Henderson said:

Steampunk = existing mechanisms and chassis. TT would be whole new tooling range.

Agree. IMO the problem with TT on 12mm the distortion is more apparent than OO probably because layouts are viewed down on more widely while TT on 14.2mm is too akin to 16.5mm to be I suspect commercially viable.

 

Don't think it's the gauge, more the quality of the track. There are plenty of 3mm/ft layouts using 12mm gauge track which look fine, but also older layouts where the track is fairly crude and don't look right. I think the big question for any manufacturer would be what track and to what standards they would use, rather than the gauge itself.

 

The big selling point for TT/3 would be the possibility of making models as detailed as 00, which you can't really do in N, while occupying significantly less space.

 

RM responded to a letter re this very point about Hornby/TT by claiming that TT originated in Rovex before it became Triang. Think they've got their facts wrong.

[whart57]

If Hornby brought out a TT scale Britannia or Class 31 then what would it run on? What would it pull? Hornby's business model is to be a one-stop-shop that supplies, locos, rolling stock and track as well as a range of scenic items. That's a big hurdle to climb for Hornby in TT because it's not as if there is a thriving market for TT items. Though the fact the field is clear was one of the attractions of the scale to Simon Kohler.

[JohnR]

You could equally say the same about its 3-rail O gauge locos that it released. 

[steve1]

3 minutes ago, JohnR said:

You could equally say the same about its 3-rail O gauge locos that it released. 

 

Different market altogether. They are just toy display cupboard fodder and unlikely to run on any sort of layout.

 

steve

[Robert Shrives]

Never say never but I do enjoy the fact I have to make kits and bits for 12mm  yet can get rtr N it satisfies my desires to build and play!    

 

I think that some of the 3mm Soc committee did investigate a Hornby link up but at this time still plans but hopefully not stillborn.  I also understand much effort in a Society based class 47 diesel is in hand as an almost rtr model.  Peco  HOm track with or without modification works for many. So some of the building blocks are there.

Interesting times in the smaller scales.  As prices replicate the issues that did not help TT V OO back in the day. Some O gauge rtr prices are not that much above OO and N prices not far behind that - so with money tight O looks a bargain for size/value for a small point to point set up in a modern mini hovel/ flat.

Robert         

[kernowtim]

Seeing what some of the corgi Bassett-Lowke models sell for now indicates there is a demand for these that maybe Hornby could fill with an extension to their O gauge range, maybe an EE 350hp, later class 08 shunter.

Ace trains seem to be doing ok with coarse scale but don't have the 08 in their range.

[NCB]

3 hours ago, whart57 said:

If Hornby brought out a TT scale Britannia or Class 31 then what would it run on? What would it pull? Hornby's business model is to be a one-stop-shop that supplies, locos, rolling stock and track as well as a range of scenic items. That's a big hurdle to climb for Hornby in TT because it's not as if there is a thriving market for TT items. Though the fact the field is clear was one of the attractions of the scale to Simon Kohler.

 

You're right about Hornby, traditionally. But they don't need to stick to that. But maybe somebody like Dapol who do dabble in different waters would be more likely.

 

If, ahem, I was running a startup project in TT3, I'd think small and produce just a few items to get things started. As people like steam and the GWR, I'd produce say a pannier and a B set coach. A toad, an open wagon and a van. I'd produce all of them with a range of numbers so that people aren't too restricted in train length or number of engines. Dapol have experience of producing all of these, in N and OO. So, not a huge amount of design work. Keeping it small could encourage people who might want to dabble in TT3 on the side while keeping other interests going. Aim for very high quality, so that it compares well with anything on the market. Sit back and watch it take hold!

 

Nigel

[Ben B]

Quote

If Hornby brought out a TT scale Britannia or Class 31 then what would it run on? What would it pull? Hornby's business model is to be a one-stop-shop that supplies, locos, rolling stock and track as well as a range of scenic items. That's a big hurdle to climb for Hornby in TT because it's not as if there is a thriving market for TT items. Though the fact the field is clear was one of the attractions of the scale to Simon Kohler.

 

Do Hornby have access to any TT track or similar (or even chassis and locomotives) through any of their foreign model companies?  I know they own the likes of Arnold etc, and with TT being more popular in Europe I just wondered.

 

I suppose the old Hornby/Triang TT molds went to the scrappers many years ago, which would be a shame, though I don't suppose aside from the nostalgia angle the modern modeller would be interested much in what are basically toys by todays standards.

[JohnR]

37 minutes ago, Ben B said:

 

Do Hornby have access to any TT track or similar (or even chassis and locomotives) through any of their foreign model companies?  I know they own the likes of Arnold etc, and with TT being more popular in Europe I just wondered.

 

 

 

Arnold produce some TT stuff - dont know whether they do track as well...

[Legend]

As others have pointed out what would it run on or pull?

 

It might have been nice , but this was more a Tri-ang initiative and I get the feeling that Hornby prefer to think of the Hornby side as being their predecessors . True , though , the Rocket is from this period , but here I think the model would sell itself regardless of its tri-ang heritage.  

[MartinWales]

Allied to the 3mm Society class 47, I do believe that some Mk1 coaches were mentioned..

[HSB]

9 hours ago, JohnR said:

 

Arnold produce some TT stuff - dont know whether they do track as well...

European models are to proper TT scale (1:120) not 3mm scale in case anybody doesn't realise the difference!

Tillig do track for TT but I don't think Arnold do TT track.

[NCB]

14 hours ago, Ben B said:

 

Do Hornby have access to any TT track or similar (or even chassis and locomotives) through any of their foreign model companies?  I know they own the likes of Arnold etc, and with TT being more popular in Europe I just wondered.

 

I suppose the old Hornby/Triang TT molds went to the scrappers many years ago, which would be a shame, though I don't suppose aside from the nostalgia angle the modern modeller would be interested much in what are basically toys by todays standards.

 

Tillig do both set-track (similar to Kato uni-track and made by Kato) and also some finer stuff, but it is 1:120. Wouldn't worry a lot of people. Kuehn also does track and Beckmann might.

 

The Peco-HOm track would be OK and looks quite reasonable, but the range is limited. Certainly quite a few 3mm Society members use it.

[TEAMYAKIMA]

On 24/02/2020 at 20:06, whart57 said:

Hornby's business model is to be a one-stop-shop that supplies, locos, rolling stock and track as well as a range of scenic items. That's a big hurdle to climb for Hornby in TT because it's not as if there is a thriving market for TT items. Though the fact the field is clear was one of the attractions of the scale to Simon Kohler.

 

I am not a 3mm modeller, but I have an interest in this topic because I am writing a brief history of TT for the Twickenham MRC newsletter.

 

Am I correct in thinking that in the not too distant past Hornby did consider restarting a TT range, but the big stumbling block was the old problem was that there were so many different variables as to what standards to work to.

 

1: 120 on 12mm track.  Worldwide standard so makes sense to adopt that scale, but very close to the British N scale of 1:148 so the scale advantage somewhat limited

 

1:100 on 12mm gauge track. Compatible with existing UK models but limits worldwide sales and 12mm track is out of favour with the very market which Hornby would want to tap into ie serious 3mm modellers (as opposed to retro collectors/modellers)

 

1:100 on 14.2mm gauge track - would limit worldwide sales and would require tooling complete unique track system

 

RESULT - project aborted?

 

Further, I know that TT (1:120) is still sold in Europe. I think I am right in thinking that there are three 'major' manufacturers of RTR TT - ARNOLD, PIKO and Tillig - are there others?

[spamcan61]

On 24/02/2020 at 12:21, JohnR said:

I think its going to take a new entrant to make some 3mm scale stuff, before Hornby enters that market. 

Agreed, from Hornby's point of view it's much lower risk to invest their borrowed money in 'more of the same' OO.

[rodshaw]

Czech company MTB produces a small range of European and US outline TT but I wouldn't call them a major player.

It might be worth mentioning in a review of current TT that there are a handful of cottage industry-type manufacturers in Europe making US outline TT, mainly freight cars. The range is limited but I have accumulated enough for a small switching layout - see the link below.

Some modellers buy European TT models then adapt the chassis to American or British bodies from Shapeways etc.

Also there's Preiser producing TT scale figures and at least one small manufacturer in Europe producing American and European road vehicles.

Edited December 4, 2020 by rodshaw

[TEAMYAKIMA]

1 hour ago, rodshaw said:

Czech company MTB produces a small range of European and US outline TT but I wouldn't call them a major player.

It might be worth mentioning in a review of current TT that there are a handful of cottage industry-type manufacturers in Europe making US outline TT, mainly freight cars. The range is limited but I have accumulated enough for a small switching layout - see the link below.

Some modellers buy European TT models then adapt the chassis to American or British bodies from Shapeways etc.

Also there's Preiser producing TT scale figures and at least one small manufacturer in Europe producing American and European road vehicles.

 

Thank you. I have some weird memory at the back of my mind of some 'new player' back 20/25/30 years ago that was planning a major US TT launch. 

 

Maybe it was from country emerging from behind the Iron Curtain or from India or somewhere 'left field' like that. I seem to remember a video presentation of a huge launch.

 

Obviously, it didn't take off - or did I imagine it? When I say that I mean that in a literal sense. Did I imagine it?

[rodshaw]

I'm not sure, unless it was MTB. I'll ask on the TTnut forum. There are a few small firms like Lok-n-Roll and Siggis in Germany, and Zeuke in Holland, who collaborate with MTB and others to produce various US TT kits and RTR items. The one major shortage at present is RTR locos. The supply of MTB SW1200 switchers has dried up and there are currently no more RTR locos on the horizon. Though you can get chassis parts, or complete chassis, to motorise the Lionel TT locos which are sold as display models, and very nice they are too.

Though if you mentioned all these things in your potted history it would drift off  the RTR picture somewhat!

Just thought of another European TT (not US) manufacturer worth a mention - Roco, and a company called Kuehn makes track.

Edited December 4, 2020 by rodshaw

[D9020 Nimbus]

3 hours ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

 

Thank you. I have some weird memory at the back of my mind of some 'new player' back 20/25/30 years ago that was planning a major US TT launch. 

There was — Berliner-Bahnen in the early years after the Wall came down. It didn't work out financially, they got into difficulty and were rescued by Tillig—who understandably haven't gone down the same road.

[TEAMYAKIMA]

1 hour ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

There was — Berliner-Bahnen in the early years after the Wall came down. It didn't work out financially, they got into difficulty and were rescued by Tillig—who understandably haven't gone down the same road.

 

YES!!  Excellent, thank you. Was there a promo video or catalogue for the American range?

 

I have a memory of seeing a working layout and a German announcing that it was going to be launched in the US. I'm sure I can remember a 'big reveal' - a secret project that hadn't been leaked.  I seem to remember a video? Or maybe I saw them at the Brighton Toy Fair as I was in the trade back then?

[Joseph_Pestell]

10 hours ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

 

I am not a 3mm modeller, but I have an interest in this topic because I am writing a brief history of TT for the Twickenham MRC newsletter.

 

Am I correct in thinking that in the not too distant past Hornby did consider restarting a TT range, but the big stumbling block was the old problem was that there were so many different variables as to what standards to work to.

 

1: 120 on 12mm track.  Worldwide standard so makes sense to adopt that scale, but very close to the British N scale of 1:148 so the scale advantage somewhat limited

 

1:100 on 12mm gauge track. Compatible with existing UK models but limits worldwide sales and 12mm track is out of favour with the very market which Hornby would want to tap into ie serious 3mm modellers (as opposed to retro collectors/modellers)

 

1:100 on 14.2mm gauge track - would limit worldwide sales and would require tooling complete unique track system

 

RESULT - project aborted?

 

Further, I know that TT (1:120) is still sold in Europe. I think I am right in thinking that there are three 'major' manufacturers of RTR TT - ARNOLD, PIKO and Tillig - are there others?

 

For me, it's a no-brainer. 1:120 on 12mm gauge.

 

1:120 versus 1:148 seems similar until you consider 3 dimensions rather than 1. The N gauge is much smaller.