Buhler motors

[cabbie37]

A while back I purchased these 3 motors among  larger collection of bits and pieces. Does anyone recognise them. They are marked Bulher - including the one with the ECM sticker. They are also marked 45 2 12, the ECM  marked 201 12. The dimensions are 16mm x 8mm.  Shafts are sheathed up to 2.25mm, the base shaft size being 1.75mm. Do people think that hey have a future in a locomotive? I have on the list next to do a chassis for a Wills/SEF LSWR G6 0-6-0 which will be a shunting engine. I wonder whether one of these might suit? My practical question might be what gearbox and how might one fit it?

[OFFTHE RAILS]

The ECM motor was marketed as a replacement for the Hornby/Triang X04/5 motor.

[cabbie37]

That, I guess, is encouraging as that would seem to suggest they provide sufficient grunt. The question still remains, however, how to transmit the drive to the axle? Could I use a conventional gearbox, mounted somehow. Drill and tap the plastice 'facing' on the ECM version to match somthing perhaps? I'm still a bit perplexed as to shaft diameter, that seems not to match any commonly available worm gears.. 

 

Any suggestions?

[JeremyC]

If I remember correctly the shafts of these motors were sleeved to take imperial bore (3/32") gears

Edited February 25, 2020 by JeremyC

[cabbie37]

Yes, of course, I hadn't thought about it being an imperial size - 3/32" comes out at 2.38mm which sounds about right. Next question, who does gears with a 3/32" bore? I don't think it's a case of running a 3/32" drill bit down something smaller...

 

Edit to add: THis might be just what I'm looking for. The right bore size for the worm, the axle size will suit the gibson wheels I have and the 60:1 ratio will probably be just fine..

 

https://peco-uk.com/products/601-ratio-1-8-bore-gear-3-32-bore-worm-gear-and-worm-set

 

Any counter observations?

Edited February 26, 2020 by cabbie37

[Barclay]

I obtained an ECM type 3 in an old kit I bought last year. It came with Romford 40:1 gears that fitted the sleeve on the motor - 3/32" was quite common back in the day so I assume Romford made gears to that size, but whether you can get them now.....

 

Sadly I didn't find the motor ran very smoothly at low revs, and it required a fair bit of power to get started, then suddenly starting at quite a speed, so it wasn't re-used.

[bike2steam]

Didn't Bachmann try out Buhler motors for a short while in it's early days of British OO outline??

[Robin Verth]

The Bachmann N class has a Buhler motor.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Also in the earlier versions of the WD 2-8-0. Excellent performer on 40:1 reduction, quiet, smooth from dead slow, ample torque. The first RTR OO steam model that I purchased that performed like a decent kit built mechanism.

 

The 2251 0-6-0 was another that started out with a Buhler motor.

On ‎01‎/‎03‎/‎2020 at 09:26, Barclay said:

...Sadly I didn't find the motor ran very smoothly at low revs, and it required a fair bit of power to get started, then suddenly starting at quite a speed, so it wasn't re-used.

I salvaged some three pole Buhler motors from my wife's old Vauxhall Cavalier when it went for scrap, and those had that characteristic. Tameable with DCC, and on a large reduction ratio they were satisfactory for driving heavy old whitemetal kit goods locos that stood urgently in need of new motors.

Edited March 2, 2020 by 34theletterbetweenB&D
to add more information omitted in first pass

[cabbie37]

Sounds like it's worth experimenting with, at least. It might be that @Barclay encountered a rogue.. As I say, it does seem that Peco still sell an appropriate 60:1 gear set, see post #5 earlier in this thread... Thanks for everyone's input...

[Barclay]

Yes the ECM motors always had a good reputation back in the 70's/80's.

 

I too have gone down the automotive route - salvaging a couple of Mabuchi motors from a broken door mirror I replaced on my old Mercedes. They seem pretty good runners but I'll need something biggish to try them in.

 

I remember the motor supplied with my old Ratio Midland 2-4-0 kit was a Buhler. I still have it after more than 30 years. Perhaps I'll build it one day.....

[DCB]

They look a bit chunky for an 00 tank loco unless it has a big bunker like an M7.   I had several which came from Rover car door locks none of which I ever managed to use.  

However plan B was to use a driveshaft and universal joint between motor and gearbox to take up the difference in shaft sizes.   An Airfix 14XX driveshaft was first choice.

Current plans involve a Buhler motor in a cut down Triang B1 tender driving the rear axle of an 0-4-2 chassis through a drive shaft for an MSWJR 2-4-0 .   Plan C involves a magnetic drive with super neo magnets.  If that don't work watch out for my Buhler motors on eBay.

[Barclay]

I really want to see that magnetic drive work - go for plan C !

 

I checked my ECM type 3 at the weekend and it isn't branded as a Buhler, so perhaps they used more than 1 supplier?

[Traintresta]

I purchased a Lima class 47 with replacement buhler motor bogie but the motor didn’t seem powerful enough and had a horrible whine so I exchanged it. 

[hayfield]

I have a Buhler motor in a Mainline 57xx which has an etched chassis, the performance is ever so good, looks similar to the ECM motor, but I think it is very different. Well I hope so as I have just sold an ECM one for a fiver

[John Tomlinson]

Some of the Liliput continental locos have Buehler motors. I have an Austrian 2-8-4 steamer with tender drive that has one. An ebay purchase for not a lot, the motor was defective but replacements from Germany are available and so I did a swop. Runs fine now.

 

John.

[AJCT]

I have a couple of Buhler motors which IIRC I got for the 2 NB Models J37 kits I bought... maybe a third of a century ago (!) .... The instructions recommended "ECM Type 2", so that's what I went for, but at the time I never got gears or gearboxes.  By the time construction eventually commenced some 30+ years later, I knew perhaps a little more about these things and I found that there were no fixing-screw holes on the motors to attach gearboxes, so I went for Mashima 1420s allied to High Level 60:1 or 68:1 Loadhaulers - with, I might add, excellent results (usual disclaimer).

I'd like to make use of the Buhlers if I can (see pic): the casing dimensions are 13.6mm (over flat sides) x 17.5mm (over curved sides)  x 23.6mm long: the overall shaft length is 41mm x 1.8mm dia, and there's a number 048017 stamped on the brush end of the casing.  Does anyone have any performance info on these motors, eg maximum rpm, current consumption (or even stall torque) or how best to attach them to suitable gearboxes ?  And what was the tag for, fixed to one of the flat sides ?   In hope !

 

Alasdair

Edited October 26, 2020 by AJCT
Clarification

[DCB]

A lot of US locos use a cardan shaft between the motor and gearbox and as the Buhlers I have acquired have spur gears  I suspect the motors don't have the sort of thrust washers on the armature to allow them to run with a worm drive.  

I would mount the motor using the boss around the armature bearings and use a drive shaft of some sort either a short one or stick it in the tender and drive the loco wheels through a shaft.

You could mount the motor in the loco and drive the tender wheels, if you wanted something different. Letting the motor move a bit in the mounting might help starting.

[AJCT]

As it happens, I have an Airfix BR 4MT 2-6-0 on a Kemilway chassis (bought even more way-back-when than the J37s mentioned above) which uses an X04 in the tender driving the loco through a cardan shaft.  So when I get round to rebuilding it from 00 to P4, that looks like an ideal use for one of my Buhler motors, so many thanks for that suggestion.

 

Cheers -

 

Alasdair

[tomparryharry]

Sorry; very late to the party.  I've got some vintage Nu-cast kits here, which include a 3-part cradle (2 part? ) to  assemble into the milled brass chassis.  The instructions recommend an ECM type 2 motor, and I managed to pick up some several years ago.  With the right gearing  (about 40-1 )  the combined weight of the loco & motor gives it some serious grunt.

 

Cheers,

Ian.

[kevinlms]

On 25/02/2020 at 20:25, cabbie37 said:

That, I guess, is encouraging as that would seem to suggest they provide sufficient grunt. The question still remains, however, how to transmit the drive to the axle? Could I use a conventional gearbox, mounted somehow. Drill and tap the plastice 'facing' on the ECM version to match somthing perhaps? I'm still a bit perplexed as to shaft diameter, that seems not to match any commonly available worm gears.. 

 

Any suggestions?

Ultrascale years ago did a version with their gears pre-mounted on it. They worked well, I put one in a Tri-ang Polly for testing purposes, with Romford wheels too. It was used on my clubs Thomas layout, until someone nicked it!

[AJCT]

1 minute ago, kevinlms said:

Ultrascale years ago did a version with their gears pre-mounted on it. They worked well, I put one in a Tri-ang Polly for testing purposes, with Romford wheels too. It was used on my clubs Thomas layout, until someone nicked it!

Yes, that's right, but by the time I found out about it and enquired, they'd stopped producing it.

 

Alasdair

[bigherb]

They were good motors as an alternative to the XO4, with the bracket the motor could be fitted in a more confined body. One in my Wills C class.

[hayfield]

Nothing beats good quality products in the right hands, for some reason I always struggle meshing older style gears, perhaps I never got the hand of using shims/running in a set of gears

 

But here you have a good set of quality items nicely constructed.

 

I have come across the ECM versions but never used them, probably by comments of some disappointed posters. Wills used to do a cast cradle for the D11 motors, I have one in use somewhere 

[5050]

I used several of the Stelfox lost wax brass cast motor mounts for D10/D11/D13 motors.  They worked OK and could be 'adjusted' (ie bent!) slightly to improve the mesh.  Still got a couple in use I think, others were taken out as I started using Mashima/High Level alternatives..