XC to get cast-off West Midlands Railway units

[TravisM]

Whilst I was watching our local BBC news this evening and they reported that Cross Country were to strengthen their Birmingham New St - Stanstead services with units from West Midlands Railway.  This came as a bit of a surprise as I’ve never heard anything about this but I was was told by a XC conductor awhile ago that there was a serious plan to cascade some of their Voyagers onto this route to reduce overcrowding.

 

The Voyagers were to be replaced by surplus HST sets but it all sounds a bit outlandish so I dismissed it.  If XC are to get surplus WMR units, I assume they will get their Class 170’s but what’s replacing those?  Can anyone shed any light on this?

[great central]

Only the centre car from WM's 3 car sets, the other two cars going to EMR as part of the 'modernisation', with 20 year old units, of the regional fleet.

Speculation on WNXX that it's likely to be a while before it happens.

Possibly dependant on the introduction of WMs new, new trains which aren't yet in service.

Edited February 24, 2020 by great central
Add last paragraph

[TravisM]

6 minutes ago, great central said:

Possibly dependant on the introduction of WMs new, new trains which aren't yet in service.

Does anyone know where the new units are coming from and if they’ve even been ordered?

[great central]

Class 196 I believe built by CAF, don't take too much notice but possibly following on from Northern's 195.

[Talltim]

It was announced as some grand figure of extra seats per year, which worked out as about two coaches...

[russ p]

5 hours ago, great central said:

Only the centre car from WM's 3 car sets, the other two cars going to EMR as part of the 'modernisation', with 20 year old units, of the regional fleet.

Speculation on WNXX that it's likely to be a while before it happens.

Possibly dependant on the introduction of WMs new, new trains which aren't yet in service.

 

Many of which were new to these routes under central trains 

[DavidB-AU]

 

7 hours ago, great central said:

Class 196 I believe built by CAF, don't take too much notice but possibly following on from Northern's 195.

 

Structurally different to the 195. The 196 has a gangway at the end.

 

 

6 hours ago, Talltim said:

It was announced as some grand figure of extra seats per year, which worked out as about two coaches...

 

AIUI all 6 coaches from the WMT 170/6s are going to extend all the XC 170/5s.

 

Cheers

David

[Glorious NSE]

Daylight shot of the 196 on test here:
https://www.railjournal.com/fleet/new-british-fleets-undergo-testing-in-velim/

Would agree that it might take a while for the coaches to move to XC as none of the Cl.196 are in service yet!

[Davexoc]

8 hours ago, Glorious NSE said:

Daylight shot of the 196 on test here:
https://www.railjournal.com/fleet/new-british-fleets-undergo-testing-in-velim/

Would agree that it might take a while for the coaches to move to XC as none of the Cl.196 are in service yet!

 

Are they going for the most lurid livery award with that?

Mind you the SWR livery further down in the article takes it to the other extreme....

[Glorious NSE]

I think they've been tangoed...

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

What XC don't tell you is that some trains will actually be shorter- at the moment there is a mix of 2 car and 3 car 170's and some diagrams are 2x2 car- when everything is three car then that's all you'll get. 

[Edwin_m]

 

20 minutes ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

What XC don't tell you is that some trains will actually be shorter- at the moment there is a mix of 2 car and 3 car 170's and some diagrams are 2x2 car- when everything is three car then that's all you'll get. 

Is this firm info or speculation?  If they aren't converting the 2+2 workings to 3+3 they will have some units left over, unless they are running some extra services somewhere or handing units back.  

Edited March 1, 2020 by Edwin_m

[Andrew Young]

26 minutes ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

What XC don't tell you is that some trains will actually be shorter- at the moment there is a mix of 2 car and 3 car 170's and some diagrams are 2x2 car- when everything is three car then that's all you'll get. 

What evidence do you have to support your comment? Or is it just pie in the sky negativity.

 

Additional swat numbers are being achieved by improvements to the diagramming and maintenance scheduling of the existing 170 fleet with more intensive use of three car units.

 

When available, half a dozen centre cars will be coming from the sets going from WMR to EMR and can go straight into some of the two car sets.

 

Regarding the comments about using voyagers on the Stansted route. There are too many differential speed restrictions on the route that currently precludes anything other than 15x and 17x units from being used as other units can’t keep time.

 

Other increases in seat numbers will be achieved by the two ex LNER HST power cars currently at Eastleigh. This means better use of the HST fleet as currently, trailer cars sit around whilst the power cars receive maintenance as the maintenance schedules for power and trailer cars are different. A situation not helped by having the maintenance facility at Laira rather than a depot where the HSTs are booked to spend the night.

 

Andrew

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

2 hours ago, Andrew Young said:

What evidence do you have to support your comment? Or is it just pie in the sky negativity.

 

Additional swat numbers are being achieved by improvements to the diagramming and maintenance scheduling of the existing 170 fleet with more intensive use of three car units.

 

When available, half a dozen centre cars will be coming from the sets going from WMR to EMR and can go straight into some of the two car sets.

 

Regarding the comments about using voyagers on the Stansted route. There are too many differential speed restrictions on the route that currently precludes anything other than 15x and 17x units from being used as other units can’t keep time.

 

Other increases in seat numbers will be achieved by the two ex LNER HST power cars currently at Eastleigh. This means better use of the HST fleet as currently, trailer cars sit around whilst the power cars receive maintenance as the maintenance schedules for power and trailer cars are different. A situation not helped by having the maintenance facility at Laira rather than a depot where the HSTs are booked to spend the night.

 

Andrew

There are indeed changes to diagramming as Leicester becomes a fuelling location for XC 170's, that change encompasses some 2+2's becoming three cars- wait and see when May comes if you are a 4 car into 3 car reduction denier!!

I gather there are also platform length issues with more than 4 cars across bits of XC's route (and Stansted cannot take more than a three car without upsetting the natives/other trains/smoke alarms) hence the inability to run double sets there.

The extra seat capacity made possible by the two extra HST power cars remains to be seen, they can only reform the current HSTs into six cars if they get approval from the DfT to take on and convert additional trailers, they also need DfT approval to reduce the seat capacity of certain trains (which are contractually set with fines for short-formed trains) AND if they can get the DfT to sign off on them having the two extra power cars to start with. The HSTs are effectively tied to their existing diagrams because of their superior capacity vs a single Voyager hence the continued use of Edinburgh and Leeds as start/finish points.

 

[DavidB-AU]

Bear in mind this is only a stopgap. The XC franchise ends in October (already Direct Award Franchise extended form July 2019) and whoever gets it will have to acquire new rollingstock. Given the routes it operates, some form of bi-mode is likely which would improve timekeeping between Ely and Stansted and allow longer trains without upsetting anybody.

 

Cheers

David

[TravisM]

1 hour ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

I gather there are also platform length issues with more than 4 cars across bits of XC's route (and Stansted cannot take more than a three car without upsetting the natives/other trains/smoke alarms) hence the inability to run double sets there.

There have been occasions that a pair of 2-car Class 170’s working the Birmingham - Stanstead service and the only station that comes to mind where platform length is a issue, is Stamford.  A 3-car set will fit with maybe half a cars length to spare.

 

Greater Anglia run at least 4-cars on their Liverpool St - Stanstead service and I think some of their Stadler 8-car sets are due to become dedicated to that service.

[DavidB-AU]

170s have selective door opening so platform length shouldn't be an issue.

 

Cheers

David

[Joseph_Pestell]

Just had a look at the centre platform at Stansted. A 4-coach train is a squeeze there but just possible. Not too difficult to extend to five cars.

[Shropshire Lad]

Sunday trains to Stansted are often formed of four cars and whilst a tight fit do go on. As Joseph says extended the platform at Stansted isn't a major job.

Additional HST power cars will allow use of coaching stock normally sat idle so short forming wouldn't be required.

 

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

11 hours ago, jools1959 said:

There have been occasions that a pair of 2-car Class 170’s working the Birmingham - Stanstead service and the only station that comes to mind where platform length is a issue, is Stamford.  A 3-car set will fit with maybe half a cars length to spare.

 

Greater Anglia run at least 4-cars on their Liverpool St - Stanstead service and I think some of their Stadler 8-car sets are due to become dedicated to that service.

The bay platform which XC use and are compelled to use because diesels trigger fire alarms under the main roof at Stansted are only supposed to take three, putting stuff into other platforms is possible but only after a re-write of the train plan as they dwell too long to go in permissive onto one of the main platforms which can take a huge number, more than 12. That was the point though- trains currently formed of 4 cars cannot be formed of 4 cars if everything is a three car; if you are expecting 4 car workings to become six cars you are in for a disappointment. It's all theoretical anyway as the replacements to release the 170's from WMR are not exactly what you would call ready to roll- with two months to go!

 

HST utilisation was always a political hot potato anyway, the way they procure and pay for maintenance on them incentivised XC to leave as many idle as possible hence some ropey levels of midweek deployment over the years. The idea was to create a sixth set by converting a small number of additional vehicles and taking one coach out of each existing set allowing five per day deployment, they cannot plan for more than four per day at the moment as that would take power car and set allocation to 100%.

 

The answer of course is something longer term which may come at refranchising, by then hopefully someone will bid based on the core XC routes being the second worst long distance for capacity in the country, possibly the western world (TPE scores worse but actions are in hand!) - even a six car bi-mode replacing everything on the Edinburgh-Plymouth and Manchester-Bournemouth runs would scarcely deal with latent demand- hopefully someone thinks big and goes straight to eight or nine car for those and by cascade kills off the 170's that way.

[Glorious NSE]

16 hours ago, Andrew Young said:

A situation not helped by having the maintenance facility at Laira rather than a depot where the HSTs are booked to spend the night.

Kinda surprised the HST diagrams didn't get flipped to work outwards from the Sth West at the last timetable change to be honest, rather than most originating at the North end of their runs...

Suppose at least the LA base allows sets to be swapped-out in the middle of their working day.

 

14 minutes ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

 That was the point though- trains currently formed of 4 cars cannot be formed of 4 cars if everything is a three car; if you are expecting 4 car workings to become six cars you are in for a disappointment.

 

XC have 13x 2 car sets, so by my reckoning the 6x centre cars will still leave 7x 2 car sets to allow for 3 x 4 car rakes if that's critical?

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

18 minutes ago, Glorious NSE said:

Kinda surprised the HST diagrams didn't get flipped to work outwards from the Sth West at the last timetable change to be honest, rather than most originating at the North end of their runs...

Suppose at least the LA base allows sets to be swapped-out in the middle of their working day.

 

 

XC have 13x 2 car sets, so by my reckoning the 6x centre cars will still leave 7x 2 car sets to allow for 3 x 4 car rakes if that's critical?

Three sets of 4 isn't enough to support the Sunday Birmingham-Stansted so some will have to be 3 car instead of the current 4, it's only possible to strengthen that line on Sundays as there is only an hourly Nottingham-Birmingham-Cardiff reducing the number of units needed for that bit.

 

The XC HSTs cannot be re-diagrammed as they are tied to certain trains which have higher seat capacity demands dictated by the DfT, and they arrive in Birmingham from Yorkshire/Derbyshire in the morning and depart Birmingham headed back that way in the afternoon. They have yet to swap a set or vehicle mid diagram at Plymouth, last week when 43303 failed the back working was a 4 car Voyager so XC would have picked up a fine for the short form northbound working.

 

[Shropshire Lad]

The bay platform at Stansted is cleared for four vehicles. A three car would be sufficient on most of the Sunday services to Stansted freeing up units for the busier Local Leicester services

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

The answer of course is something longer term which may come at refranchising, by then hopefully someone will bid based on the core XC routes being the second worst long distance for capacity in the country, possibly the western world (TPE scores worse but actions are in hand!) - even a six car bi-mode replacing everything on the Edinburgh-Plymouth and Manchester-Bournemouth runs would scarcely deal with latent demand- hopefully someone thinks big and goes straight to eight or nine car for those and by cascade kills off the 170's that way.

 

But aren't those the routes that deal with platform capacity issues (BNS / Reading) that limit the length of trains allowed due to platform sharing?

 

If so, until you somehow deal with the capacity problems at BNS / Reading longer trains aren't an option.

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

44 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

But aren't those the routes that deal with platform capacity issues (BNS / Reading) that limit the length of trains allowed due to platform sharing?

 

If so, until you somehow deal with the capacity problems at BNS / Reading longer trains aren't an option.

The trains that reverse/could reverse at BHM are the ones that occupy a part platform and those don't get anywhere near as busy as the ones I listed (MAN-BMH, EDB-PLY) which have to take full platforms at Birmingham as they are passing through from one end to the other ergo cannot share. There really ought to be enough space for an XC to take a full platform at Reading, the station went through a pretty major capacity uplift and using a higher numbered platform saves a conflicting move anyway.