GWR branch line denizens

[Guest WM183]

Hello all. I'm no expert on the GWR but I do like pannier and prairie tank locomotives a lot. I also like the little 4 wheel GWR coaches and early bogie clerestory coaches. And I love goods wagons and structure modelling. I own and have detailed and crewed a 57xx pannier (early cab) and a 45xx tank. Would all of this be found on a branch line anywhere in GWR service at once? I'm building a rake of 4 wheel coaches using shire scenes sides and bits and I'd like to run them in revenue service too. So, where and when would be a good choice for me? And might other locomotives,  like a dean goods or 43xx, be found there too? Or maybe older panniers or saddle tanks?

 

Confused by timelines,

 

Amanda 

[The Johnster]

Well, Amanda, GW branch lines are a very broad church.  In reality, very few were actually built by the company and most were locally sponsored and financed at a time when railways were 'the future' and the idea of getting fresh produce to London or the other big cities, or the product of your local quarry or mine to the industrial centres, quickly and cheaply promised prosperity and riches for investors in local railways.  They nearly all went bankrupt before completion and were taken over by the GW who bought out the local investors.  Few of them ever made a penny as stand alone projects, but were useful as traffic feeders to the big company.  So each one has it's own style of buildings, standard of construction, and general character.

 

What tends to be common about them is the locos and stock, and these varied according to the period you want to model.  Now for some bad news; if by the 'little 4 wheel GWR coaches' you mean the 3-compartment Hornby Railroad coaches, these do not represent even closely any GW 4 wheel coach.  They seem to be based on an early Somerset and Dorset Joint type.  Ratio do kits for 4 wheel coaches which are much more accurate, but will find difficulty in negotiating setrack curves.  The early bogie clerestories, by which I'm guessing you mean the Hornby non-gangwayed ones, are based on actual prototypes but date from 1961 as models, and are a compartment too short; they can be worked up into something reasonable though.

 

A 57xx pannier and a 45xx would be found operating together in some areas, but bear in mind that the 45xx was introduced in 1906, and the 57xx in 1926, so the 57xx is not suitable for layouts based pre-1926.  Other locos that might be suitable will be the 48xx (which became 14xx in 1947) and 58xx 0-4-2T, and the later version of the 57xx, the 8750.  Also suitable are the 54xx, 64xx and 74xx series panniers, of which only 64xx is available as an RTR model.  

 

Some of these locos are suitable for working auto trains.  An auto train is a train consisting of a loco fitted with the necessary equipment and a trailer coach with a driving cab at one end.  The equipment was beneath the trailer and loco and consisted of rods and linkages manually operated by the driver; for this reason no more than 2 trailers could be operated at once and this meant that auto trains could not be more than a maximum of 4 vehicles long with the loco 'sandwiched' in the middle.  The operating advantage is obvious;  the loco does not need to run around it's train at the terminus and can propel the trailer in the other direction.  48xx and 64xx are suitable for this, but not your 45xx or 57xx.  A later version of the 45xx, the 4575 with increased side tank capacity, is available and some of these were fitted with auto equipment by BR in 1953.  A feature of auto train working was that the trailers were fitted with folding steps and could serve low or ground level platforms.  A problem with auto working if you want to model pre-1928 is that the earliest RTR type of auto trailer was not built until that year.

 

Some of the diesel railcars are also suitable for branch line use; the streamlined type dates from the mid 30s and the 'razor' type from 1942.  The smaller tender locos appeared on some of the longer branches, and Dean Goods are suitable, along with the 2251 class Collett Goods.  Larger locos like large prairie or 43xx are probably stretching things a bit.  For pre 1926, the 45xx as we have seen and the old Triang Hornby 2721, an open cab pannier which preceded the 57xx, can be found on 'Bay, but is not a good model by modern standards.  Neither is the Triang Hornby 8750; stick to Bachmann for your panniers!  A 3D printed body for the 2721 in it's original saddle tank condition is available from Stafford Road Models, as is one for a '517', the predecessor of the 48xx which can use the same chassis; some 517's were auto fitted but AFAIK 2721's weren't. 

 

A point about different types of locos appearing on the same branch in the same period; this depends very much on the branch.  Some short branches, such as Wallingford or Clevedon, were worked entirely by a single loco, and longer ones such as Fairford or Lambourne featured a variety of locos.  Lambourne featured auto trailers pulled by larger, non auto fitted, locos such as Dean Goods because auto locos did not have the reserve power to deal with the horseboxes frequently carried to deal with the racehorse traffic and there were several ground level halts to be be served.

 

Coaching stock is surprisingly thin on the ground.  Hornby do the 1928 auto trailer, and Bachmann do one introduced by BR in 1949, there are the old Triang clerestories, and that's about it.  Hornby introduced some 57' bow ended Collett non-gangwayed coaches last year but these are more suited to suburban work; this will not stop most modellers, myself included, from using them on branch lines.  Kits, if you're up for them, will increase the biodiversity of what is available considerably.

 

Freight stock will be predominantly GW types, but coal wagons will be private owner and other railways' wagons can appear with loads from originating points on those railways.  In the mid 30s the Railway Clearing House, RCH, which was a body set up to control such matters, brokered a deal in which ordinary general merchandise wagons, 5 plank opens and vans, were pooled so there would be a greater presence of other railways' stock after that.

 

Hope this has whetted your appetite and not put you off.  Let us know how you get on with it and don't be afraid to ask questions.  There is no such thing as a silly question, though there is such a thing as a silly answer!

[DavidB-AU]

The upcoming Hattons Genesis 4/6 wheelers, while not reflecting any particular prototype, would give a better look and feel than the Hornby ones.

 

I'm not sure exactly how many of these were still around after 1926, but another recent topic found some examples of pre-1892 coaches originally built for broad gauge still around in 1930-32. 6 wheel luggage composites from the mid 1880s seemed to be the most common ex-broad gauge coaches still around in 1930.

 

But of course you can always apply Rule 1.

 

Cheers

David

Edited February 25, 2020 by DavidB-AU

[lezz01]

Would you not be better off building the Ratio 4 wheeler kits? At least they aren't generic. Plus you have the satisfaction of being able to say that you have built them yourself. As has been said above the downside is that they won't go around set track curves as built but there are ways around that and there are people on here that will be willing to help you achieve that.  

Regards Lez. 

[Steamport Southport]

*cough*

 

No mention of Hornby or Hattons. 

 

 

2 hours ago, WM183 said:

 I'm building a rake of 4 wheel coaches using shire scenes sides and bits 

 

Amanda 

 

Amanda I take it you have already found these websites.

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/

 

http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/

 

http://www.penrhos.me.uk/

 

There were still a few places which did still have four wheel coaches into the 1920s and 1930s. Place like the Tanat Valley Railway in Mid Wales. Home to some delightful locomotives like this one. Later rebuilt by the GWR but lasted until 1948. The coaches are also Cambrian but are very similar to the GWR type which later replaced them.

 

 

 

 

The locomotive is available in GWR condition from GEM Models (with a chassis kit from Wizard)

 

 

The Cambrian itself was a place which did inherit a lot of older stock like Dean Goods and small 4-4-0s as much of it was weight restricted.

 

 

 

Jason

[Harlequin]

Hi Amanda,

Everything you mentioned is plausible on a generic GWR branch line except that the 4 wheel coaches were being phased out around the time the 57xx was introduced and the Dean goods and Mogul imply heavier traffic than most branch lines.

 

The 4 wheel coaches lingered on in use as passenger coaches (rather than being used for other purposes) in Wales.

 

So you could easily invent a fictional branch line dated 1929 onwards (because of the 57xx) with all the ingredients but the Dean goods and the Mogul make it slightly more difficult. If you replace the 57xx with one of it’s very similar predecessors then you can push the date back.

 

To find a prototype location that employed that combination of rolling stock would require some research. The Whitland to Cardigan branch certainly saw the use of earlier panniers with 4 wheel coaching stock while small prairies were hauling goods but I doubt it ever saw a Dean goods or a Mogul. (I would be delighted to be proved wrong, though!)

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/l/llanglydwen/index7.shtml

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by Harlequin

[DavidB-AU]

As far as locos go, years ago I read an article about a layout depicting a fictional branch line "somewhere in Wiltshire" as an excuse to run anything - "it's on a test run after overhaul at Swindon". I'm not sure the same excuse can be applied to coaches.

 

Cheers

David

[Guest WM183]

Thank you all so much for the detailed and helpful replies! I'm quite thankful I asked. I've been building kits, primarily wagons but also a couple coaches, and have amassed a large collection of books on the topics of locomotives and wagons. All my stock is being built with brass etched brake gear, much is compensated, both in 4mm and 7mm (  this topic is about 4mm though!)

 

Sadly my knowledge of their use is pretty slim, of time periods and actual GWR practice.  My first thought was a coal mining branch somewhere in the Welsh valleys, but I'm not sure.  The idea of an idyllic and rather boring branch somewhere also appeals. Thank you all so much for the detailed descriptions! It seems like having my 57xx along with the ratio 4 wheel coaches is pushing things, and the Hornby clerestory bogie coaches are not very accurate.  Suppose id better look for books on coaches.  

 

Are there any good kits of the earlier pannier types? Or am I into scratch build territory with something like a 2021?

Edited February 25, 2020 by WM183
Clarity

[Miss Prism]

23 minutes ago, WM183 said:

Are there any good kits of the earlier pannier types? Or am I into scratch build territory with something like a 2021?

 

2021

 

[Guest WM183]

3 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

2021

 

 

I really need to just consult this site first always. Such a good site, thank you!

[K14]

The St Ives Branch.

 

https://www.francisfrith.com/st-ives/photos?search_for=station

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/45603744@N06/33550464066/in/photostream/

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSlt5a2X6FA

 

[The Johnster]

If you decide to go for the South Wales mining valley, then that increases the potential biodiversity at a stroke.  Route availability restrictions did not apply in the Valleys, and 'red' engines ran everywhere.  You can legitimately include the 56xx, Churchward 31xx (later 5101) and 42xx/52xx/72xx, though the 72xx was more common on main line work.  Big tender locos worked on the Pontypool-Aberdare-Neath route, and 43xx, 30xx (ROD), and 28xx could be seen.  Also, if you build kits, several pre-grouping types are around, though maybe not easy to source; NuCast Taff Vale 'A' class as rebuilt by GW with taper boiler, and Rhymney 'R', which can be worked up to represent similar loco Stephenson's built for the Brecon and Merthyr, and Neath and Brecon railways.  There's also the ancient but still quite good body kit from South Eastern for the Taff Vale U1 class, and the Pontypool-Neath route featured the 26xx 'Aberdare' outside framed 2-6-0.  

 

Plenty of scratch building potential as well, with other pre-grouping locos and coaching stock, including some very distinctive auto trailers, still running during the GW period and even early BR days.

 

As a very sweeping generalisation, the pre-grouping locos tended to work on pre-grouping independent railways' routes after the grouping, not necessarily their routes of origin.  GW locos having already established themselves on GW lines in the area prior to the grouping, such as 42xx and 45xx/4575, tended to continue as before.  The 56xx, intended to replace the older independents' locos, were used everywhere on passenger, freight, and mineral workings.

Edited February 26, 2020 by The Johnster

[Rhydgaled]

On 25/02/2020 at 03:25, Harlequin said:

To find a prototype location that employed that combination of rolling stock would require some research. The Whitland to Cardigan branch certainly saw the use of earlier panniers with 4 wheel coaching stock while small prairies were hauling goods but I doubt it ever saw a Dean goods or a Mogul. (I would be delighted to be proved wrong, though!)

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/l/llanglydwen/index7.shtml

 

I have the Oakwood Press book "The Whitland & Cardigan Railway" by M.R.C. Price. The photos of the early days show 517 class 0-4-2 tank engines and 850 class saddle tanks, I'm pretty sure the 850s also appeared in pannier form and I think I've seen a picture of a 1901 class pannier at Cardigan. The Oakwood Press book states that the Cardigan branch had a 'yellow' colour weight restriction, which if true would rule out 57xx in GWR days. Presumably they might have appeared once BR reclassified them as 'yellow' locos but I've yet to see photo of one on the branch. A shame as a photo of an 8750 on the CardiBach would give me a perfect excuse to buy myself a Bachmann one.

 

More relevant to this topic though is that the Oakwood Press book states that Dean Goods locos did run on the CardiBach. Tender engines were never common, it says, but the monthly cattle train to Crymych was apparently often hauled by a Dean Goods. No pictures that I'm aware of though, and I'm not sure if they ever got north of Crymych. Thus, if you model south of Crymych (or Crymych itself) you can include a Dean Goods without invoking 'I built it so I'll run what I like'.

[Andy Kirkham]

On 26/02/2020 at 15:54, The Johnster said:

If you decide to go for the South Wales mining valley, then that increases the potential biodiversity at a stroke.  Route availability restrictions did not apply in the Valleys, and 'red' engines ran everywhere.  

 

And four-wheel coaches were used on some workmen's services even after WW2, I think.

[hayfield]

On 25/02/2020 at 07:11, WM183 said:

Thank you all so much for the detailed and helpful replies! I'm quite thankful I asked. I've been building kits, primarily wagons but also a couple coaches, and have amassed a large collection of books on the topics of locomotives and wagons. All my stock is being built with brass etched brake gear, much is compensated, both in 4mm and 7mm (  this topic is about 4mm though!)

 

Sadly my knowledge of their use is pretty slim, of time periods and actual GWR practice.  My first thought was a coal mining branch somewhere in the Welsh valleys, but I'm not sure.  The idea of an idyllic and rather boring branch somewhere also appeals. Thank you all so much for the detailed descriptions! It seems like having my 57xx along with the ratio 4 wheel coaches is pushing things, and the Hornby clerestory bogie coaches are not very accurate.  Suppose id better look for books on coaches.  

 

Are there any good kits of the earlier pannier types? Or am I into scratch build territory with something like a 2021?

 

 

If you want kits on the easier side to build Southeastern Finecast have an older Pannier (1854) and saddle tanks (1804) both bodies are very straight forward to build and from memory the etched chassis are leaning towards the easier side to build. Also they do a Metro 2-4-0T which is also quite basic

 

Roxey Mouldings  sell some interesting early and absorbed engines, good kits but a little more difficult to build. The 0-4-4T (Rebuilt Dean 0-4-2T) would look good with four wheelers or clearstories

[The Johnster]

On 03/08/2020 at 10:13, Andy Kirkham said:

 

And four-wheel coaches were used on some workmen's services even after WW2, I think.

The last GW 4 wheel coaches, similar to the Ratio kits, were used on miner’s workman’s on the Senghenydd and Glyncorrwg branches into BR days and some received plain crimson livery.  The very last were used at Glyncorrwg in 1954 IIRC, happy to be corrected, and were replaced by the last clerestories, which were similar to the Hornby ‘shorty’ type. 
 

Neither of these are accurate but can be worked up, and lengthened, into reasonable models.  For other coaching stock, Comet is your friend with non-gangwayed Colletts of several suitable types and a 64’ Hawksworth.  Roxey do kits for ‘Clifton Downs’ auto trailers, some of which ended their days as individual coaches in the area. 
 

Stafford Road Works in conjunction with Shapeways do a 3D saddle tank 2021 body and a 517 body for RTR chassis.

[Siberian Snooper]

2021s in both pannier and saddle tank versions are available from Southeastern Finecast, they have an etched nickel silver chassis. I don't think they are on the website,  but if you give Dave a ring he will fix you up. Sorry I can't give you the phone number.

 

 

[Ian M.]

What would be a good suburban loco for the Hornby bowed end non-corridor coaches that is available today for mid-late 1930s to 1948 GWR? Would 8750 or 64XX panniers be appropriate?

[Miss Prism]

Large or small Prairie would be the 'classic' match for the Hornby suburbans.

 

[The Johnster]

The Hornby Collett bowended non-gangwayed suburbans ran in 4-coach sets, and were built for service in the London and the Birmingham Areas.  Similar styled 5-coach sets were used in Cardiff and Bristol areas; these had all-thirds and shorter brake  compartments, with the first class accommodation in a central composite. 
 

As Ms.P says, but 56xx as well in the Midlands.  Large prairie 61xx London Area, 5101 for Midlands, not that there’s any visual difference, higher boiler pressure is not something you could see.  57xx/8750 not impossible on short-haul jobs, but 64xx were mostly used on auto work, and tended not to be a London loco, the larger-wheeled 54xx being more common there.  Small prairies were rare in London Area. 
 

 

[DCB]

8 hours ago, Ian M. said:

What would be a good suburban loco for the Hornby bowed end non-corridor coaches that is available today for mid-late 1930s to 1948 GWR? Would 8750 or 64XX panniers be appropriate?

No.  64XX were auto engines  and  generally worked  the heavier auto trains around Plymouth and South Wales.   8750s were not generally found on Suburban work, they dd turns in emergencies they would run at 60MPH with no issues unlike JInties, J50s etc  but the Suburban engines of the post 1923 era were County Tanks, and 45XX then the 51/61 series Prairies which supplanted them.  Halls also ran non corridor sets in the Thames Valley on Oxford  Trains

 

On 24/02/2020 at 23:42, Guest WM183 said:

Hello all. I'm no expert on the GWR but I do like pannier and prairie tank locomotives a lot. I also like the little 4 wheel GWR coaches and early bogie clerestory coaches. And I love goods wagons and structure modelling. I own and have detailed and crewed a 57xx pannier (early cab) and a 45xx tank. Would all of this be found on a branch line anywhere in GWR service at once? I'm building a rake of 4 wheel coaches using shire scenes sides and bits and I'd like to run them in revenue service too. So, where and when would be a good choice for me? And might other locomotives,  like a dean goods or 43xx, be found there too? Or maybe older panniers or saddle tanks?

 

Confused by timelines,

 

Amanda 

The 57XX were not branch line engines in GWR  days  They were Blue route locos like the 28XX  2-8-0 and 43XX Mogul.  In 1951 they were re graded as Yellow route and could venture down most branches.     The branch locos were the 45XX prairies and small 0-6-0Ts of the 850 and 2021 class, 4 ft wheels  originaly Saddle Tank s many gained pannier tanks  physically much smaller than the 57XX  many were auto fitted but they are not available RTR  very much an Edwardian  16XX    2-4-0 metro tanks did a lot of branch work as did the 0-4-2T of the 517 class.
The classic 57XX on a B set was very largely a BR days .  Initially 57XX were generally employed as heavy shunters it was only when they proliferated that they spread their sphere of operations.  That said there were probably odd places probably in Wales where ancient clerestories, and low roof coaches were hauled by 57XX  even if the 4 wheelers had been retired.  

[Cwmtwrch]

4 hours ago, DCB said:

No.  64XX were auto engines  and  generally worked  the heavier auto trains around Plymouth and South Wales. 

Fair comment. However, the related 74XX had no auto fittings, but regularly appeared on passenger trains on some branches and were more powerful as they had a higher boiler pressure. There were some small visible detail variations from the 64XX, principally the junction between cab and bunker top.

[Miss Prism]

The Fairford branch is a good example where panniers (particularly 74xx) predominated in later years. (In the '30s, Metros still ruled the roost.)