Gary goes Midland - A Charity Project

[BlueLightning]

I prefer the term "improved"

[Jol Wilkinson]

On 29/02/2020 at 11:44, Londontram said:

I must say I've always been tempted by the M&GNJR in Norfolk you get the best of both world, mainly Midland locos but all in a pretty but unusual mustard yellow colour plus the opertunaty for true Midland locos bringing holiday excursions to the coast.

 

 (Complementing picture found on Google origin unknown)

 

Any way Gary sounds like a Nobel project I'm sorry I've got nothing remotely Midland I can help you with but good luck and I shall be following your progress with interest.

  Don't forget as well as the Triang 3F the old Triang 2P responds well to a bit of detailing to bring it more up to date

  Steve

For reference, that is a MGNR 4-4-0 Class C, from the MR 1808 Class design. The model was built from a London Road Models MR 1808 kit. The photo was supplied by the builder (he also made a MGNR version of the LRM GNR J6 0-6-0). The photos  were given to LRM and used in some PR, the MGNR 0-6-0 can be seen on the LRM website.

[Londontram]

On 12/03/2020 at 21:24, Jol Wilkinson said:

For reference, that is a MGNR 4-4-0 Class C, from the MR 1808 Class design. The model was built from a London Road Models MR 1808 kit. The photo was supplied by the builder (he also made a MGNR version of the LRM GNR J6 0-6-0). The photos  were given to LRM and used in some PR, the MGNR 0-6-0 can be seen on the LRM website.

 Thanks for filling in the info Jol its a beautifully made model as I said I found it on Google under the search

"Images of M&GNR livery"

    Steve

Edited March 14, 2020 by Londontram

[Jol Wilkinson]

Steve,

 

on behalf of John at LRM, I am sure he won't mind the photo appearing here on RMweb.

 

I would like to credit the original photo but I can't recall who was the builder of the MGNR 4-4-0 or 0-6-0. My main pc with my "modelling files" is boxed after a house move and still waiting for BT to provide a connection

 

Jol

[Londontram]

Have removed some content from my original post so as not to appear as if I intentionally posted or claimed recognition for some one else's picture as explained it was down loaded from the public site Google and was posted in all innocence and good faith.

   Regards Steve

Edited March 13, 2020 by Londontram

[Compound2632]

In compensation, here's a photo of the real thing:

 

 

M&GN Class C No. 78, from the 1899 batch of seven built by Beyer, Peacock. There were forty in the class in all, the first 26 having been built by Sharp, Stewart in 1894, tagged onto an order for the Midland 2203 Class, then another seven from the same builders in 1896. They were not built to 2203 Class drawings but, as Jol says, were essentially identical to the 1808 Class of 1888/1891, 25 of which were built at Derby. To confuse matters further, in 1900, the Midland, desperate for engines, added ten engines for itself to the Beyer, Peacock order for M&GN engines. These are sometimes described as the 2581 Class but the official Derby description was "like M&GN C"; Ahrons referred to them equally accurately as "1808 Class (1900)".

 

So in all there were 75 engines of this type, 35 Midland and 40 M&GN - considerably more than any other Johnson 4-4-0 class apart from the Belpaires.

[Martin.M]

Is it me or does this bare a passing resemblance to a SE&CR D class? 

Martin

[Crimson Rambler]

Yes it does but to be perhaps pedantic, it was the SE&CR D class that resembled the Johnson 4-4-0 since the 1808 Class and their sisters preceded it!

Interestingly, Harry Wainwright, born in 1864, had served an apprenticeship on the Midland under T G Clayton. John Marshall records that Wainwright started his apprenticeship at 14 – while this is perfectly feasible to my mind it leaves precious time for the period he also apparently spent at Worcester Grammar School, St Andrews Derby and Central Technical College London.

Be that as he may, he was at Derby when the Master, as Jack Braithwaite used to refer to SWJ, was in full flow.

 

Crimson Rambler

 

[Compound2632]

Another one! I'd only just got to grips with Billinton the Elder. 

 

Wainwright may have been responsible for the external design work but the locomotive (along with all other "Wainwright" classes) was really the work of the ex-LCDR Chieft Draughtsman, Robert Surtees. His Derby link is a bit more tenuous - his Locomotive Superintendent at Longhedge had been William Kirtley, nephew of Matthew, who had been Locomotive Works Superintendent at Derby until his appointment to the LCDR in 1874. 

[Compound2632]

40 minutes ago, Crimson Rambler said:

Yes it does but to be perhaps pedantic, it was the SE&CR D class that resembled the Johnson 4-4-0 since the 1808 Class and their sisters preceded it!

 

As far as mechanical design goes, the Ds resembled the 1808 Class in having slide valves, whereas Johnson had gone over to piston valves for express passenger engines in 1893 with the 179 Class singles and then in 1896 the 150 Class 7ft 4-4-0s and 115 Class singles.

[Crimson Rambler]

Yes the design of Wainwright's engines is mostly attributed to the Chief Loco Draughtsman Robert Surtees but perhaps it should be mentioned that Wainwright did know a little about loco design he had previously served as a locomotive draughtsman under Whitelegg of the LT&SR - to be honest perhaps not the best mentor! Followed by a period on the MS&LR.

 

Crimson Rambler

[Crimson Rambler]

Piston valves and the Midland - the influence of the North Eastern's  Walter Smith and SWJ's great chum!

 

Crimson Rambler

[Compound2632]

22 minutes ago, Crimson Rambler said:

SWJ's great chum!

 

 

... his Chief Draughtsman at Cowlairs in the 1860s.

[Crimson Rambler]

Yes, and I think he then went to Stratford with SWJ. 

 

The depth of the friendship is I think revealed by the name of one of Smith's sons who was elected a member of the Royal Society. The following is extracted from his obituary:-

 

"Samuel Walter Johnson Smith was born on 26 January 1871, the second of the eight children of Walter Mackersie Smith and his wife Margaret Black, both of Ferry-Port on Craig, Fife. He died on 20 August 1948. Throughout his life he was proud of his Scottish origin. Of him it can be truly said that he lived a life of great intellectual distinction with humility and simplicity, characterized by an unfailing devotion to the service of his many pupils. The sense of loss felt by these and his many friends in the world of physics, will be tempered somewhat by their happy memories of his lovable personality. Smith’s father was a distinguished locomotive engineer, a keen advocate and pioneer of the use of high-pressure, compound-cylinder steam-engines for rail transport. His advocacy of such engines is set out with remarkable and convincing clarity in a pamphlet, Simple v. Compound Locomotives, published in 1892 (see Engineering, November 1906; Proc. Institute Mechanical Engineers, 1906). Mr Walter J. Smith (a brother of S. W. J. Smith) informs me that several three-cylinder compound locomotives, operating on Smith’s system, were constructed for, and used by, the Midland and Great Central Railway Companies.

The operation of a simple type of valve enabled the engine to be operated either as a semi-compound or simple high-pressure engine so that increased power was made available when required. Two four-cylinder compound locomotives to Smith’s design were built by the North-Eastern Railway Company, but Mackersie Smith lived to see only one of these in service. Round about 1877 he was engaged as locomotive engineer to the Imperial Government Railways of Japan. S. W. J. Smith inherited his father’s love of science and his indomitable spirit of perseverance. Both were good golfers".

 

For what it is worth I have the complete obituary in .pdf form from the Royal Society website but it is a large file. It is interesting that the author of this obituary who obviously met a surviving brother, Walter J , but this was not the one who became the Chief Loco Draughtsman of the Midland and later Works Manager of the GCR  at Gorton. He, John William Smith, was the first son and born in 1866. I think he may have died by 1948, certainly I remember Phil Atkins remarking once that he had found no obituary for J W Smith.

 

Hope this is of interest

 

Crimson Rambler

 

 

[Boldon Boy]

John William Smith (of Derby and Gorton) is recorded as dying at Marple on 12 May 1943.   He may well have been the 'G C Schultz' who described the Smith compound system in a series of articles which appeared in the 'Locomotive', beginning in October 1911. 

[BlueLightning]

We are back with another video discussing plans for the Midland project! Including a brief overview of my layout idea, based on the help I have received on here!! I'd love to hear your feedback.

 

PS. If I sound tired it's because I recorded this at about half past midnight after doing my Sunday night livestream!

 

 

[Compound2632]

Thinking out loud about that Triang 3F, whose proportions are all over the place, I'm wondering if the best hope for it might be to convert it to an engine with H boiler - the round-topped equivalent of the G7 Belpaire boiler, which many Johnson 0-6-0s received as an intermediate step on their way to becoming the familiar 3F. See here.

 

The nameplates with the K's spinner are clearly spurious. Only the 4-4-0 No. 1757 Beatrice had nameplates; the only other named Midland engine, 2601 Princess of Wales had the name painted on the splasher. She's not of the class the kit represents, anyway.

[BlueLightning]

ooohhh that's a nice 0-6-0 Stephen! That sounds like a good plan.

 

I did think the nameplates with the spinner were spurious. Thanks for confirming

 

Gary

[Compound2632]

19 hours ago, BlueLightning said:

ooohhh that's a nice 0-6-0 Stephen! That sounds like a good plan.

 

It's not often done and sets that "late Midland" rather than "early LMS" stamp, as rebuilding to final 3F form - G7 belpaire boiler - was complete by late 1925. 

[BlueLightning]

It's been a while, mainly because of the pandemic holding things up, but as of today, the Midland project officially exists, this was due to the baseboards I have been donated arriving via courier! Now I just need to make a track plan!!! The boards give me 8ft 2in x 2ft the plan is to have a shed scene at the front, using Metcalf buildings (If I can get a hold of the appropriate ones) with a fiddle yard at the back entered by a tunnel portal, with a supposed mainline running over the fiddle yard, with it's fiddle yards hidden by buildings at each end, I don't think the upper level needs much scenic space, but it means there is a chance for something other than locos to appear on the layout!

 

 

Gary