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WisTramwayMan

Hornby Rocket - pre-order from Hattons

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On 22/02/2020 at 21:23, amwells said:

Received mine today and what a model! Yes, I’ve already managed to damage the wires between loco and tender and will fix them again in due course, but otherwise what a lovely set. would love to weight the front of the tender slightly, will investigate in due course!
 

Nice touch coming in a brown cardboard outer like old Triang locos. 

Glad you received yours ! For those of you who placed your orders for R3809 with Hattons, and had it confirmed, prepare for the possibility of being shafted. Received this from them a few minutes ago:

 

Good afternoon,

We have received less stock than expected for Hornby's new Stephenson's Rocket Train Pack (R3809). This means that we are oversold on this product and regrettably have had to cancel your order. We are unable to source any further stock at the moment, due to the model being sold out with the supplier. 

We would like to take this opportunity to apologise for any inconvenience and disappointment this may cause. 

Your order has been cancelled so no payment will be taken and there is nothing required from your end. This will not affect any other orders or outstanding pre-orders you currently have with us.

Kind regards,

 

Hattons Model Railways 

 

So some of those who played the game, have dealt with Hattons for many years, now miss out. Far from satisfactory. Obviously apart from their own brands there is no NEED to buy stuff from Hattons, and I should imagine that other retailers (in particular one the other side of the Pennines) would be delighted to have them.

 

Excuse is they were sent less than expected by Hornby. And excuse it is - if you are given an allocation then that is what you should get. If you do not get your allocation, they should be giving Hornby hell. And if you didn't get your allocation, then who did ?

 

It'd be interesting to know whether Hattons roll over with their tummy in the air or make a fight of it. I assume they have written correspondence with Hornby as to how many to expect. Unless, or course, QA checks at Hornby have revealed problems, resulting in rejections, and hence the run is depleted. Not that we'll ever know.

 

The annoying bit is that at the time I could have placed elsewhere, but no, dealt with Hattons for years so go with them. 

 

Like an elephant, I will remember this. Perhaps Hattons should look at the prices people are selling these for on the secondary market, and credit let down customers who, not let it be forgotten, had A CONFIRMED, ACCEPTED PRE-ORDER.

 

Is this breach of contract ?

 

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13 minutes ago, WisTramwayMan said:

Glad you received yours ! For those of you who placed your orders for R3809 with Hattons, and had it confirmed, prepare for the possibility of being shafted. Received this from them a few minutes ago:

 

Good afternoon,

We have received less stock than expected for Hornby's new Stephenson's Rocket Train Pack (R3809). This means that we are oversold on this product and regrettably have had to cancel your order. We are unable to source any further stock at the moment, due to the model being sold out with the supplier. 

We would like to take this opportunity to apologise for any inconvenience and disappointment this may cause. 

Your order has been cancelled so no payment will be taken and there is nothing required from your end. This will not affect any other orders or outstanding pre-orders you currently have with us.

Kind regards,

 

Hattons Model Railways 

 

So some of those who played the game, have dealt with Hattons for many years, now miss out. Far from satisfactory. Obviously apart from their own brands there is no NEED to buy stuff from Hattons, and I should imagine that other retailers (in particular one the other side of the Pennines) would be delighted to have them.

 

Excuse is they were sent less than expected by Hornby. And excuse it is - if you are given an allocation then that is what you should get. If you do not get your allocation, they should be giving Hornby hell. And if you didn't get your allocation, then who did ?

 

It'd be interesting to know whether Hattons roll over with their tummy in the air or make a fight of it. I assume they have written correspondence with Hornby as to how many to expect. Unless, or course, QA checks at Hornby have revealed problems, resulting in rejections, and hence the run is depleted. Not that we'll ever know.

 

The annoying bit is that at the time I could have placed elsewhere, but no, dealt with Hattons for years so go with them. 

 

Like an elephant, I will remember this. Perhaps Hattons should look at the prices people are selling these for on the secondary market, and credit let down customers who, not let it be forgotten, had A CONFIRMED, ACCEPTED PRE-ORDER.

 

Is this breach of contract ?

 

Further to the above, have just spoken to Hornby Hobbies and they are saying that Hattons knew EXACTLY what they were getting, as soon as they placed their preorder, and THAT IS WHAT THEY WOULD HAVE GOT.

 

So - the 2 views - Hattons - we have not got what we due from Hornby.

 

Hornby - Hattons would have got exactly what they preordered.

 

Someone is twisting facts.....

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6 minutes ago, WisTramwayMan said:

Someone is twisting facts

 

Please stop using emotive phraseology and you may get an informative response.

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34 minutes ago, WisTramwayMan said:

Glad you received yours ! For those of you who placed your orders for R3809 with Hattons, and had it confirmed, prepare for the possibility of being shafted. Received this from them a few minutes ago:

 

Good afternoon,

We have received less stock than expected for Hornby's new Stephenson's Rocket Train Pack (R3809). This means that we are oversold on this product and regrettably have had to cancel your order. We are unable to source any further stock at the moment, due to the model being sold out with the supplier. 

We would like to take this opportunity to apologise for any inconvenience and disappointment this may cause. 

Your order has been cancelled so no payment will be taken and there is nothing required from your end. This will not affect any other orders or outstanding pre-orders you currently have with us.

Kind regards,

 

Hattons Model Railways 

 

So some of those who played the game, have dealt with Hattons for many years, now miss out. Far from satisfactory. Obviously apart from their own brands there is no NEED to buy stuff from Hattons, and I should imagine that other retailers (in particular one the other side of the Pennines) would be delighted to have them.

 

Excuse is they were sent less than expected by Hornby. And excuse it is - if you are given an allocation then that is what you should get. If you do not get your allocation, they should be giving Hornby hell. And if you didn't get your allocation, then who did ?

 

It'd be interesting to know whether Hattons roll over with their tummy in the air or make a fight of it. I assume they have written correspondence with Hornby as to how many to expect. Unless, or course, QA checks at Hornby have revealed problems, resulting in rejections, and hence the run is depleted. Not that we'll ever know.

 

The annoying bit is that at the time I could have placed elsewhere, but no, dealt with Hattons for years so go with them. 

 

Like an elephant, I will remember this. Perhaps Hattons should look at the prices people are selling these for on the secondary market, and credit let down customers who, not let it be forgotten, had A CONFIRMED, ACCEPTED PRE-ORDER.

 

Is this breach of contract ?

 

 

A very sad post to read and the follow-up. too.  You have my deep sympathy, it must feel really very upsetting to miss out on something so long anticipated, particularly a model of such a well known national turning point.  I can only hope that you might find a reasonably priced replacement, at some time in the future.

 

Julian

 

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From postings on the Hornby 2020 announcements thread it was apparent that no decisions had been made on the quantity any retailer would get for some time after they all starting taking orders and sold out on what they thought they would get rather than the reality.

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I cannot understand how the 'Rocket' seemed to be sold out at Hattons before the Hornby catalogue came out.  I simply walked down to my shop at Swanage Railway station.  The manageress contacted the Hornby representative who said he might not be able to supply the limited run version so he would probably deliver the other one. Last week I walked past Swanage station and an assistant told me that my locomotive had arrived.  I went into the shop and the limited run model was available.

 

I have been a customer of Hattons since 1965 but recently I have been unable to order anything on line because a message comes up saying that my password and email address do not tally.  I have rung them up three times but they just keep on sending my password that I already know.  I did speak to a senior member of staff who was very polite and told me that he is pleased to speak to me as I was one of their first online customers and he would sort it out but I just got another email giving me my password.

 

For me there is little point in dealing with Hattons as I get a 10% discount from the Swanage Railway as a premier life member, I don't have to pay postage and they can supply the model I want.  

 

In the past the opposite applied. My local shop charged the full price and was often unable to obtain the locomotive and over the last 55 years I must have saved a fortune by dealing with Hattons.

 

I also find it difficult to believe the 'Rocket' has sold out everywhere. 1,500 models is a lot for a limited run and there are over 1,500 coming out as a standard issue. Perhaps a millionaire is hoarding them and is going to make a fortune on ebay. I did not think many people would run a pioneering layout.

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Hi Wistramwayman, 

 

I am sorry that we are unable to fulfil your order for the R3890. As you know, this has been a very popular item, and I can assure you that we have done everything we could to try to secure more stock. 

 

Although it won’t change the issue of your cancelled pre-order, I wanted to clarify a few of the points you have made in your post below.

 

Did Hattons receive their full allocation of Hornby R3809?

Yes. Every retailer had an initial allocation of models available to them, whether they accepted the full amount was up to the retailer. We also later placed an additional order for further R3809 sets. Ultimately these models have proved extremely popular not only with ourselves but Hornby and other retailers as well and it was not possible to secure this additional order.

 

Is it a breach of contract for Hattons to cancel pre-orders due to insufficient stock?

No. The order is only deemed to be accepted when we dispatch the goods to you. This is part of our standard Terms and conditions.

 

Again, I do apologise that we have let you down on this occasion. 

 

Dave

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48 minutes ago, Hattons Dave said:

Hi Wistramwayman, 

 

I am sorry that we are unable to fulfil your order for the R3890. As you know, this has been a very popular item, and I can assure you that we have done everything we could to try to secure more stock. 

 

Although it won’t change the issue of your cancelled pre-order, I wanted to clarify a few of the points you have made in your post below.

 

Did Hattons receive their full allocation of Hornby R3809?

Yes. Every retailer had an initial allocation of models available to them, whether they accepted the full amount was up to the retailer. We also later placed an additional order for further R3809 sets. Ultimately these models have proved extremely popular not only with ourselves but Hornby and other retailers as well and it was not possible to secure this additional order.

 

Is it a breach of contract for Hattons to cancel pre-orders due to insufficient stock?

No. The order is only deemed to be accepted when we dispatch the goods to you. This is part of our standard Terms and conditions.

 

Again, I do apologise that we have let you down on this occasion. 

 

Dave

So - the problem was that Hattons DID oversell -v- their initial allocation. A shame that the line was not drawn once this initial qty was sold, at least it would have given now-let down customers the chance to pre-order it elsewhere.

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2 hours ago, AlexHolt said:

I've had this and similar problems happen to me numerous times when trying to order from Hattons. You're not the only one experiencing problems with them. I've given up with hattons, their product database seems like a total mess as they've quite often sold me products they don't actually have in stock. This and also not having enough to fulfil pre orders had made me take my business elsewhere.

 

A lot of places have sold out on pre order of the Rocket, which means for a lot of people trying to source one now that hattons have pulled this on them is going to be quite difficult. If Hornby are saying Hattons always knew how many they were going to get then is it a case of Hattons overselling and expecting to be sent more from Hornby? 

See my earlier post but in a word - yes - as I read it they oversold their allocation and took orders versus further stock that was never confirmed by Hornby (despite what Hatton's letter to customers implied).

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I do remember Hornby saying that they had allocated numbers of the available models to each shop, dependant upon their Hornby sales record...  and this was to be decided by the Reps.  That number was to be communicated to the shops concerned and any model allocation turned down by any shop would be made available when known.  It was also made very clear that there would be no additional availability, beyond what was stated.  

 

Taking orders beyond a shop allocation, without informing the customer{s} of the circumstances, would seem to be questionable.  In the event, that policy meant that potential customers were expecting that their order would be honoured and did not look to place an order elsewhere, or, perhaps, place an order for the R3810.

 

Wouldn't it be nice if a deal was forged with the rogue traders, now selling for highly inflated prices, to buy total available models, at less than advertised, but discounted for rapid and complete stock sale.  These could then be sold, at the original price tag, to fulfil the pre-order the potential customers thought they had made.  What a wonderful gesture that would be, how happy that would make those customers and what a wonderful advert for the shop {at less cost than most advertising, too}.

 

Julian

We all make mistakes, what is important is what we do when we discover that we have made an error.

 

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3 hours ago, WisTramwayMan said:

So - the problem was that Hattons DID oversell -v- their initial allocation. A shame that the line was not drawn once this initial qty was sold, at least it would have given now-let down customers the chance to pre-order it elsewhere.

You are doing it again. You state that there is a problem when you mean that you think that there is a problem in the way that Hattons do business.

Why is it a shame that Hattons tried to sell more than their initial allocation? They are in business to sell and in as large a volume as possible. It seems to me to be a perfectly normal practise to take orders for a second tranche if the first tranche has all be sold. How where they to know that Hornby would have no more stock? When there has been so much overproduction in recent times, with Hornby being a major party, then a chance to sell more units would obviously be welcomed by Hattons. I realize that you are upset at having to take alternative action and possibly have some extra costs but I imagine that the people at Hattons are pretty annoyed at the loss of sales volume.

I have been bumped of flights from time to time as airlines tend to sell more tickets than there are seats. I have turned this to my advantage on occasion with hefty offers to attract me to use another flight. I organize events and generally allow a percentage of overbookings and hope that some people drop out. No good ranting about it, it's the way of the world. I do hope you can source a Rocket at a reasonable price. But please, don't take out your frustration on the good folk on this forum.

Bernard

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14 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

You are doing it again. You state that there is a problem when you mean that you think that there is a problem in the way that Hattons do business.

Why is it a shame that Hattons tried to sell more than their initial allocation? They are in business to sell and in as large a volume as possible. It seems to me to be a perfectly normal practise to take orders for a second tranche if the first tranche has all be sold. How where they to know that Hornby would have no more stock? When there has been so much overproduction in recent times, with Hornby being a major party, then a chance to sell more units would obviously be welcomed by Hattons. I realize that you are upset at having to take alternative action and possibly have some extra costs but I imagine that the people at Hattons are pretty annoyed at the loss of sales volume.

I have been bumped of flights from time to time as airlines tend to sell more tickets than there are seats. I have turned this to my advantage on occasion with hefty offers to attract me to use another flight. I organize events and generally allow a percentage of overbookings and hope that some people drop out. No good ranting about it, it's the way of the world. I do hope you can source a Rocket at a reasonable price. But please, don't take out your frustration on the good folk on this forum.

Bernard

 

Taking orders for non-guaranteed stock is not wrong - NOT telling customers that their orders have been accepted on that basis IS wrong; (and will ultimately result in loss of business, NOT additional business).

 

If customers were unhappy to place an order on that basis, they could then look elsewhere.

 

Hattons policy is pure, simple greed.

 

End of !!!

 

John Isherwood.

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Thanks for the explanation of what happened WisTramwayMan.

All I got from Hattons was a standard "Order cancelled" email with no explanation why, which then led to me having to check all of my details (credit card, etc) to see if that was the cause in case it imapacted other stuff I've got on order.

 

The really annoying aspect of it is the fact that they have stolen my time from me. My order was placed, so I assumed they would fulfil it. They have deprived me of the time to source it from another supplier, something which will obviously be next to impossible now.

 

Seriously wondering about what will happen with the other limited edition stuff due later in the year, will you get one, or will you only have a cancellation email to show for it?

 

Edited by X201
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6 hours ago, WisTramwayMan said:

Glad you received yours ! For those of you who placed your orders for R3809 with Hattons, and had it confirmed, prepare for the possibility of being shafted. Received this from them a few minutes ago:

 

Good afternoon,

We have received less stock than expected for Hornby's new Stephenson's Rocket Train Pack (R3809). This means that we are oversold on this product and regrettably have had to cancel your order. We are unable to source any further stock at the moment, due to the model being sold out with the supplier. 

We would like to take this opportunity to apologise for any inconvenience and disappointment this may cause. 

Your order has been cancelled so no payment will be taken and there is nothing required from your end. This will not affect any other orders or outstanding pre-orders you currently have with us.

Kind regards,

 

Hattons Model Railways 

 

So some of those who played the game, have dealt with Hattons for many years, now miss out. Far from satisfactory. Obviously apart from their own brands there is no NEED to buy stuff from Hattons, and I should imagine that other retailers (in particular one the other side of the Pennines) would be delighted to have them.

 

Excuse is they were sent less than expected by Hornby. And excuse it is - if you are given an allocation then that is what you should get. If you do not get your allocation, they should be giving Hornby hell. And if you didn't get your allocation, then who did ?

 

It'd be interesting to know whether Hattons roll over with their tummy in the air or make a fight of it. I assume they have written correspondence with Hornby as to how many to expect. Unless, or course, QA checks at Hornby have revealed problems, resulting in rejections, and hence the run is depleted. Not that we'll ever know.

 

The annoying bit is that at the time I could have placed elsewhere, but no, dealt with Hattons for years so go with them. 

 

Like an elephant, I will remember this. Perhaps Hattons should look at the prices people are selling these for on the secondary market, and credit let down customers who, not let it be forgotten, had A CONFIRMED, ACCEPTED PRE-ORDER.

 

Is this breach of contract ?

 

If this is how you react to not being able to get a model train, then goodness knows how you would react if anything actually serious happens to you

 

Yes its frustrating not being able to get it from your pre-order, having a major rant about it is, quite frankly, ridiculous and embarrassing.

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17 minutes ago, X201 said:

Thanks for the explanation of what happened WisTramwayMan.

All I got from Hattons was a standard "Order cancelled" email with no explanation why, which then led to me having to check all of my details (credit card, etc) to see if that was the cause in case it imapacted other stuff I've got on order.

 

The really annoying aspect of it is the fact that they have stolen my time from me. My order was placed, so I assumed they would fulfil it. They have deprived me of the time to source it from another supplier, something which will obviously be next to impossible now.

 

Seriously wondering about what will happen with the other limited edition stuff due later in the year, will you get one, or will you only have a cancellation email to show for it?

 

Stolen your time from you? 

 

Good lord

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6 minutes ago, Half-full said:

If this is how you react to not being able to get a model train, then goodness knows how you would react if anything actually serious happens to you

 

Yes its frustrating not being able to get it from your pre-order, having a major rant about it is, quite frankly, ridiculous and embarrassing.

 

Somewhat quieter than your tone, in complaining about a person detailing how a disappointment was created.  Pot or Kettle, your choice.

 

J

 

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Sounds like a case of sour grapes to me.  You have to remember that retailers, like airlines oversell items on the belief that people cancel, change their minds or a host of other reasons.  I also expect Hatton’s genuinely hoped that they would get a further order and when they didn’t, they shipped on who ordered first basis, not pick a name out the hat.

 

It’s life and s**t happens.  I’m sure if you do a little searching on the web, you’ll find one and the toys will remain in the pram.

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Was there a limit per customer on orders placed,  not just by the store in question but by other dealers?   I recall several years ago on this site of a member who worked for a store and who bragged of the number of a very limited production run, was it the West Country loco "Wilton" that was severely curtailed in production numbers to around 200 total.  He,  due his working in the shop,  was able to source several models, up to six from memory with the intention of placing them on a well known auction site to make a healthy profit.  It is actions like this that bring store personnel into disrepute.  I feel for limited edition models that there be a limit of one per confirmed customer and that the store identify whether staff have taken advantage of their privileged position.  Obviously privacy laws would prohibit personal data being disclosed.  Perhaps the allocation per store should be dealt with by way of a lottery whereby customers express interest in an item and if expressions of interest exceed available numbers then successful recipients are drawn out of a hat.  Store personnel have an unfair advantage over a typical customer having inside knowledge. 

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I wonder if some retailers have bought R3809 'Rocket' sets from Hattons and are now selling them at inflated prices.  Hattons seemed to have sold out on pre-order before the Hornby catalogue came out so the retailers would have some insider knowledge. 

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Well I was concerned with my order at Rails , because up till last week the order just said pending . I checked with them on the stand at Model Rail Scotland last weekend and the lady said they knew exactly how many they were getting , models were arriving this week and would be sent out . True enough , order changed to in process and my Rocket arrived yesterday.  So it does seem that retailers knew exactly what they were going to receive.  It is interesting that no one is complaining that Rails can not fulfil their order . So they seem to be dealing with pre orders correctly. 
 

Now Hattons I think could be considered the No1 mail order house. Could it be that the Rocket was so popular that they received a volume of orders before they had the numbers allocated to them confirmed?

 

However once their allocation was confirmed I would have expected them to have stopped accepting orders beyond that initial number and in the event they were already over sold I would have expected them to send emails as soon as possible  saying sorry we received less than we though we cannot fulfil your order.  This would at least have enabled disappointed customers to look elsewhere earlier.

 

i really don’t think Hattons are covering themselves in glory here, especially as Hattons Dave confirms they knew what their initial allocation was . 
 

And so as a consumer I’d  be wondering could the same thing happen for other items eg the Diecast Duchess of Abercorn.  By the way, Rails also said that main range announcements like the hush hush were selling very well , so it might not be an issue limited to the Hornby 100 limited editions

 

 

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Unless you want to pay for a red box my advice is to wait until Hornby do another run of the yellow box 'Rocket'.  Hornby will do this if it has any sense.  Normally model railways are a buyers' market.  Eventually Hornby will produce too many 'Rockets' and the sets will turn into Hattons bargains selling at £130 per set.

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40 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

I wonder if some retailers have bought R3809 'Rocket' sets from Hattons and are now selling them at inflated prices.  Hattons seemed to have sold out on pre-order before the Hornby catalogue came out so the retailers would have some insider knowledge. 

Hattons only started shipping the R3809s they got yesterday, so those retailers would be selling items they hadn't received yet.

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6 minutes ago, Legend said:

Well I was concerned with my order at Rails , because up till last week the order just said pending . I checked with them on the stand at Model Rail Scotland last weekend and the lady said they knew exactly how many they were getting , models were arriving this week and would be sent out . True enough , order changed to in process and my Rocket arrived yesterday.  So it does seem that retailers knew exactly what they were going to receive.  It is interesting that no one is complaining that Rails can not fulfil their order . So they seem to be dealing with pre orders correctly. 
 

Now Hattons I think could be considered the No1 mail order house. Could it be that the Rocket was so popular that they received a volume of orders before they had the numbers allocated to them confirmed?

 

However once their allocation was confirmed I would have expected them to have stopped accepting orders beyond that initial number and in the event they were already over sold I would have expected them to send emails as soon as possible  saying sorry we received less than we though we cannot fulfil your order.  This would at least have enabled disappointed customers to look elsewhere earlier.

 

i really don’t think Hattons are covering themselves in glory here, especially as Hattons Dave confirms they knew what their initial allocation was . 
 

And so as a consumer I’d  be wondering could the same thing happen for other items eg the Diecast Duchess of Abercorn.  By the way, Rails also said that main range announcements like the hush hush were selling very well , so it might not be an issue limited to the Hornby 100 limited editions

 

 

Maybe they just aren't complaining on here?

 

Almost every retailer, be it model shops to airlines, take on more orders than they expect to sell, to cover for cancellations, that's business.  The risk is always there that items can sit on a shelf for too long, not earning money.  What is stupendously popular one day, may not be the next day, in these days of high overheads and low profit, that risk cant be taken. 

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I wonder how the model railway magazines are going to obtain their review samples now that Hornby have stopped sending them.  

 

By the time that the magazines review them it will be too late to order a 'Rocket' if it gets a good review and too late to cancel if it gets a bad one so there may not be any point in the magazines doing reviews. 

 

I wonder what happens to the models after they have been reviewed. Perhaps the editors put them on the second hand market.

P1090744.JPG

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