Jump to content

WisTramwayMan

Hornby Rocket - pre-order from Hattons

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

Was there a limit per customer on orders placed,  not just by the store in question but by other dealers?   I recall several years ago on this site of a member who worked for a store and who bragged of the number of a very limited production run, was it the West Country loco "Wilton" that was severely curtailed in production numbers to around 200 total.  He,  due his working in the shop,  was able to source several models, up to six from memory with the intention of placing them on a well known auction site to make a healthy profit.  It is actions like this that bring store personnel into disrepute.  I feel for limited edition models that there be a limit of one per confirmed customer and that the store identify whether staff have taken advantage of their privileged position.  Obviously privacy laws would prohibit personal data being disclosed.  Perhaps the allocation per store should be dealt with by way of a lottery whereby customers express interest in an item and if expressions of interest exceed available numbers then successful recipients are drawn out of a hat.  Store personnel have an unfair advantage over a typical customer having inside knowledge. 


That would be the 34001 Exeter saga of about IIRC six years back which caused embarrassment to both Hornby and all retailers thus causing an eBay run of awesome proportions.It was Christmas time too,which really rubbed salt in the wound.Sorry but stuff happens from time to time and stuff of greater magnitude is happening in the world right now.

  • Agree 2
  • Informative/Useful 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Taking orders for non-guaranteed stock is not wrong - NOT telling customers that their orders have been accepted on that basis IS wrong; (and will ultimately result in loss of business, NOT additional business).

 

If customers were unhappy to place an order on that basis, they could then look elsewhere.

 

Hattons policy is pure, simple greed.

 

End of !!!

 

John Isherwood.

 

It appears to be in their terms and conditions that a pre-order is not a guarantee that you will get the item. Its the same in other T&Cs that I have glanced at on other model shop websites. 

 

Hattons policy is to try and sell as much as they can, and if they cants get the stock, its not through want of trying. I'd have been annoyed - if not angry, if they took my pre-order and then made NO attempt to secure additional stock. But it seems that while increasing the initial order is usually possible, it wasnt on this occasion. 

 

Also  - its a model train. Its not like you were buying life saving drugs or something important? There will be further runs - especially if this has sold out so completely. 

 

  • Agree 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The R3809 'Rocket' saga is happening right now. I don't think anyone is getting very worked up about it. It is just interesting to find out why one retailer has not been able to deliver its pre-orders when other retailers have.

  • Agree 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding what model railway magazine editors do with review models, I know of at least one magazine that uses their samples as prizes in competitions as I was lucky enough to win one. I suspect some get returned to the manufacturer and others are used in articles to demonstrate weathering etc. In the bad old days when Hornby were being difficult magazines were forced to buy their own models for review. This is veering off topic but I would be interested to know what happens to them now. 

  • Informative/Useful 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Morning all,

 

A few points/questions have come up overnight that I’d like to provide answers for.

 

Was there a limit per customer in regards to R3809 Rocket Train Pack?

No. However, there is no sign of anyone having purchased large amounts of these from ourselves.

 

Will this situation occur with any of the other items announced as part of the Hornby 2020 range?

We cannot guarantee that this will not impact any further items in the Hornby 2020 range but at this stage we do not expect it to. We do always try our best to source as many items possible in cases where we expect demand to be high. We will also be regularly reviewing pre-order figures to safeguard against this.

 

Why haven’t you bought stock from people selling these on eBay or other sites to fulfil these orders?

We have attempted to acquire additional stock from other sources in order to fulfil as many pre-orders as possible. However, if we were to take stock from non-traditional sources then this could cause issues with the warranty if the need ever arose to use it.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

  • Like 6
  • Informative/Useful 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, JohnR said:

 

It appears to be in their terms and conditions that a pre-order is not a guarantee that you will get the item. Its the same in other T&Cs that I have glanced at on other model shop websites. 

 

Hattons policy is to try and sell as much as they can, and if they cants get the stock, its not through want of trying. I'd have been annoyed - if not angry, if they took my pre-order and then made NO attempt to secure additional stock. But it seems that while increasing the initial order is usually possible, it wasnt on this occasion. 

 

Also  - its a model train. Its not like you were buying life saving drugs or something important? There will be further runs - especially if this has sold out so completely. 

 

 

Let's be clear - I had no order for a Rocket, and so am not - on this occasion - personally affected. Nonetheless - I understand dealers accepting more orders than they have guaranteed forthcoming stock as being good business; (from their perspective).

 

However - such over-acceptance of orders should only be made AFTER it has been made crystal clear to the customer that delivery is not guaranteed. The customer then has the option to seek guaranteed delivery elsewhere, or to let the provisional order stand - in which case he / she has no right to complain if the order is not ultimately fulfilled.

 

NO-ONE will convince me that any other arrangement is acceptable or good business practice.

 

John Isherwood.

  • Like 1
  • Agree 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Let's be clear - I had no order for a Rocket, and so am not - on this occasion - personally affected. Nonetheless - I understand dealers accepting more orders than they have guaranteed forthcoming stock as being good business; (from their perspective).

 

However - such over-acceptance of orders should only be made AFTER it has been made crystal clear to the customer that delivery is not guaranteed. The customer then has the option to seek guaranteed delivery elsewhere, or to let the provisional order stand - in which case he / she has no right to complain if the order is not ultimately fulfilled.

 

NO-ONE will convince me that any other arrangement is acceptable or good business practice.

 

John Isherwood.

I’m inclined to agree. Some years ago, I had a tense weekend until I could get to my PC and order a Hornby Royal 67, which Hornby stated was in very limited supply. It turned out that the limited supply only related to the initial batch and the loco in question was available is such quantities that the remainder was sold at a discount. It reminds me of the saying, “Politicians do not lie; they tell the truth in a manner calculated to mislead.” I recall feeling indignant at what I regarded as fast practice by Hornby – not a feeling any good business wants to create in customers.

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Hattons Dave said:

Morning all,

 

A few points/questions have come up overnight that I’d like to provide answers for.

 

Was there a limit per customer in regards to R3809 Rocket Train Pack?

No. However, there is no sign of anyone having purchased large amounts of these from ourselves.

 

Will this situation occur with any of the other items announced as part of the Hornby 2020 range?

We cannot guarantee that this will not impact any further items in the Hornby 2020 range but at this stage we do not expect it to. We do always try our best to source as many items possible in cases where we expect demand to be high. We will also be regularly reviewing pre-order figures to safeguard against this.

 

Why haven’t you bought stock from people selling these on eBay or other sites to fulfil these orders?

We have attempted to acquire additional stock from other sources in order to fulfil as many pre-orders as possible. However, if we were to take stock from non-traditional sources then this could cause issues with the warranty if the need ever arose to use it.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

 

Dave,

 

A simple question - and one that might avoid adverse publicity in the future - why do you not simply inform the customers who wish to order after you have exhausted your guaranteed delivery quota that delivery of the product is not guaranteed?

 

That way, there can be no complaint if you have to 'bounce' orders.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

  • Agree 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Dave,

 

A simple question - and one that might avoid adverse publicity in the future - why do you not simply inform the customers who wish to order after you have exhausted your guaranteed delivery quota that delivery of the product is not guaranteed?

 

That way, there can be no complaint if you have to 'bounce' orders.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

Hello John,

 

This situation is not a common occurrence, we do not normally take orders over and above what we are receiving. We would typically disable pre-orders slightly before reaching our total number of ordered items.

 

In this case we have seen unprecedented demand for the Rocket train pack which has led to this regrettable situation and I apologise unreservedly to anyone affected.

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

  • Friendly/supportive 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most of these limited edition packs are bought to resell on the bay,its brimming with them.all way beyond the issue price,way of the world now

  • Friendly/supportive 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

Most of these limited edition packs are bought to resell on the bay,its brimming with them.all way beyond the issue price,way of the world now

A large number are being sold by retailers rather than original purchasers  and if its on auction then its down to the stupidity of bidders as to how much its price is once bidding starts particularly if the start price is akin to the list price.  Whatever unless the seller is making use of an ebay offer is going to incur ebay and paypal fees and you are looking at around a £30 hike in  price simply to cover the fees.

  • Agree 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 28/02/2020 at 04:13, JohnR said:

Hattons policy is to try and sell as much as they can, and if they cants get the stock, its not through want of trying. I'd have been annoyed - if not angry, if they took my pre-order and then made NO attempt to secure additional stock. But it seems that while increasing the initial order is usually possible, it wasnt on this occasion.

 

Except this was known in mid-January - somewhere on RMweb there was a discussion about retailers finding out quite quickly that their allocation (for at least some retailers) couldn't meet demand.

 

Given that it would seem taking orders on a basis of hoping to get additional stocks would be quite a risk.

 

On 28/02/2020 at 04:13, JohnR said:

Also  - its a model train. Its not like you were buying life saving drugs or something important? There will be further runs - especially if this has sold out so completely.

 

The model in question, R3809, is a limited edition of 1500 units as part of Hornby's Centenary line so I don't expect there will be additional runs - otherwise the limited edition buyers who did get a unit will be upset with Hornby.

 

So yes, at some point Hornby are likely to make more models of Rocket (if the non-collectors edition R3810 has also sold out), but that is of no use to those who thought they were buying one of the limited edition from Hattons.

  • Like 1
  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 28/02/2020 at 08:52, Robin Brasher said:

I wonder how the model railway magazines are going to obtain their review samples now that Hornby have stopped sending them.  

 

By the time that the magazines review them it will be too late to order a 'Rocket' if it gets a good review and too late to cancel if it gets a bad one so there may not be any point in the magazines doing reviews. 

 

I wonder what happens to the models after they have been reviewed. Perhaps the editors put them on the second hand market.

P1090744.JPG

 

What's the point of a magazine 'reviewing' an item that has already sold out?

 

If you've managed to get one, you know how good it is.

 

If you haven't managed to get one then, you ain't gonna get one from the sane channels; being extorted by flea bay may be a possibility.

Edited by JohnDMJ
  • Like 1
  • Agree 2
  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 28/02/2020 at 15:12, cctransuk said:

why do you not simply inform the customers who wish to order after you have exhausted your guaranteed delivery quota that delivery of the product is not guaranteed?

On 28/02/2020 at 15:50, Hattons Dave said:

This situation is not a common occurrence, we do not normally take orders over and above what we are receiving. We would typically disable pre-orders slightly before reaching our total number of ordered items.

 

In this case we have seen unprecedented demand for the Rocket train pack which has led to this regrettable situation and I apologise unreservedly to anyone affected.


Not unprecedented though. ISTR that, when I placed my order for Bachmann’s H2, the first that I heard that Hattons wouldn’t be fulfilling it was when I read reports here from happy recipients from other retailers. Not once did Hattons advise me to buy elsewhere. 
 

Just one of many reasons why Hattons is no longer my favoured retailer. 

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, truffy said:


Not unprecedented though. ISTR that, when I placed my order for Bachmann’s H2, the first that I heard that Hattons wouldn’t be fulfilling it was when I read reports here from happy recipients from other retailers. Not once did Hattons advise me to buy elsewhere. 
 

Just one of many reasons why Hattons is no longer my favoured retailer. 

 

What does this have to do with taking orders for a model they believed they would be getting more stock of but unfortunately didn't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, sandwich station said:

 

What does this have to do with taking orders for a model they believed they would be getting more stock of but unfortunately didn't.

 

An issue of communications, and openness regarding stock availability. I didn't think it was that difficult.

  • Agree 1
  • Friendly/supportive 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, JohnDMJ said:

 

What's the point of a magazine 'reviewing' an item that has already sold out?

Has R3810 sold out?  Just because the main box shifters etc have sold , or oversold, their allocation there are stacks of other Hornby stockists  who no doubt will be getting stocks. This happens everytime a model is popular but  invariably the item can be found, its just a case of looking beyond the likes of Hattons and Rails etc and realising their are actually other retailers out their. No one knows how many R3810s Hornby have ordered but its going to be substantially more than the R3809s. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Spot on Butler, I walked into the LMS yesterday evening and low and behold there was a R3809 sitting on the shelf. It was not even mentioned in the Model Shops webpage!  Needless to say I picked it up!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, sandwich station said:

 

What does this have to do with taking orders for a model they believed they would be getting more stock of but unfortunately didn't.

 

.... "believed" on what basis - they'd placed an order, but it hadn't been confirmed.

 

As I have said before - if you've exhausted your guaranteed stock, ALWAYS inform prospective customers that their order is not guaranteed for delivery.

 

Any other way is pure greed and deception.

 

John Isherwood.

  • Like 1
  • Agree 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

Any other way is pure greed and deception.

 

John Isherwood.

 

Or incompetence?

 

Never ascribe to malice, and all that

 

Edited by Hal Nail
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

 

Or incompetence?

 

Never ascribe to malice, and all that

 

Or 'business practice'?

 

Over years Hattons have had some rather strange practices - one being to invent  divine (I can't really think of another word for it) prices when models are first announced.  The best example of this was the Bachmann H1 where one only needed to compare their initial quoted price (long before Bachmann gave any indication to anybody of their expected price) and quick comparison with the already priced NRM GN atlantic would give anyone a rough indication of what it would cost.  Hattons long worked on a basis of grabbing pre-orders with heavily discounted prices and when they began to be caught out by the models arriving at a much higher price than they either expected or guesstimated they eventually stopped their previous practice of guaranteeing the price at time of order.  

 

Later their pile-it-high-and-sell-it-cheap business model began to be undermined by Bachmann, and then Hornby limiting initial retail discounts and of course by Hornby changing and reducing trade margins.  Hattons have very obviously reacted to this with a new marketing strategy of commissioning own brand models, which appears to have been highly successful in delivering high quality models which sit neatly in the marketplace, and they have taken that further by becoming a wholesaler of those models, and a wider range of products, to other retailers.

 

I see nothing wrong in any retailer accepting more pre-orders than models they have ordered in because inevitably there will be a dropout rate when the time comes for customers to put the credit card where their eyes have settled BUT Hattons should be pretty familiar with exactly what that rate is, and trade accordingly and equally they should now which models are likely to be sell outs.  However when it comes to very limited editions where manufacturers only provide an allocation the situation is very different and over-selling (I.e. accepting pre-orders beyond allocation) becomes the sort of thing which gets your business a bad name - very quickly.  John Isherwood  ('CCTransUK') has already posted above the obvious solution for any retailer to adopt in this situation but the retailer needs to accept the commercial reality that they can't have the penny and the bun of perhaps being able to fulfil a few of those 'surplus' pre-orders from returned stock or cancellations while not bothering about the customers who get an automatic email saying 'tough luck'.

 

If I pre-order something from either of my 'local' retailers I regard that as a contract between me and them and it is a contract which works both ways.  On occasion one of them has, I know, been very short supplied from the manufacturer (inevitably Hornby) and I have had to wait for the next batch, as have other of their regular customers.  That is one thing, ordering very limited editions (which to be honest I rarely do anyway) is something else entirely and I will probably know in advance that they are likely to be limited by manufacturer rationing and they would no doubt make that clear should I happen to consider an order for such an item..

  • Like 3
  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Over years Hattons have had some rather strange practices - one being to invent  divine (I can't really think of another word for it) prices when models are first announced.  The best example of this was the Bachmann H1 where one only needed to compare their initial quoted price (long before Bachmann gave any indication to anybody of their expected price) and quick comparison with the already priced NRM GN atlantic would give anyone a rough indication of what it would cost.  Hattons long worked on a basis of grabbing pre-orders with heavily discounted prices and when they began to be caught out by the models arriving at a much higher price than they either expected or guesstimated they eventually stopped their previous practice of guaranteeing the price at time of order.  

 

IIRC, their original guesstimated price for Bachmann's 24t crane was in the region of £85! :lol:

I pre-ordered, but my main reason for later cancelling was the realisation that it was a little outside my era of interest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 28/02/2020 at 15:50, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

Most of these limited edition packs are bought to resell on the bay,its brimming with them.all way beyond the issue price,way of the world now

There are 15 listed on ebay right now, out of an edition of 1500. Reminds of that childhood joke, 'I've told you a million times, don't exaggerate...!'

  • Like 1
  • Agree 2
  • Funny 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, sandwich station said:

 

What does this have to do with taking orders for a model they believed they would be getting more stock of but unfortunately didn't.

 
There is of course a history here.History does have a habit of repeating itself In varying shape or form.One such apologetic script might read for instance ..”we can no longer supply because the item has been withdrawn by the manufacturer and no longer in production “ . Which was untrue because same item was readily available elsewhere.

 

Hattons in terms of model trains are big,powerful and seemingly sound business wise.They can afford to shrug off the odd fall from grace.Stuff happens,sadly.

  • Agree 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Come on folks. I've been dealing with Hattons for decades like many of you. They are good people and a good business that achieved #1 in the recent poll through their hard work. They screwed up this time and have unreservedly apologized. Like we are perfect?

 

For goodness sake, just shut up and move on.

  • Like 6
  • Agree 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.