Manor Announced for 00

[The Johnster]

Checked Dap’s online catalogue earlier and it looks as if £139 was a bit optimistic.  This is the current price of the Prairie, on a ball park par with Hornby’s, and the DCC ready Mogul and Manor are £20 more. Seems about right. 

 

As for 3 of each, I doubt if many will be able to afford to afford 3 at a time. There’s a difference in laying out £600 on several locos at once and the same amount of money over perhaps 18 months or 2 years...  

[Hal Nail]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

As for 3 of each, I doubt if many will be able to afford to afford 3 at a time. There’s a difference in laying out £600 on several locos at once and the same amount of money over perhaps 18 months or 2 years.

Even in the unlikely event Dapol, Hornby or the hypothetical other land 3 things together, and all three sell out, I'm sure they will do re-runs later.

Edited March 6, 2020 by Hal Nail

[The Stationmaster]

10 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

 

The issue is thus.

 

Many people won't want one of each - they will want 3 of each, or 3 of one and 2 of each of the others, etc.  So it isn't a matter of coming up with £600 but rather say £1,500 or more.

 

While at the same time wanting the Bachmann 94xx and the Model Rail 16xx, and perhaps even some of the Hornby Prairies.

 

So yes, if you are Dapol it is likely wisest to spread out the arrivals so that you can better give each individual model a better chance to make a profit.  Either that, or find an owner willing to keep putting more money into the business.

Exactly so - and if someone else drops something else into that stream of new models (someone else working on a 'Manor' for example) it becomes even more interesting and changes the demands on how we spend our hard earned wages, pensions, and savings.

 

I think we know/can reasonably expect this year a Hornby prairie, the Bachmann 94XX and the Model Rail 16XX plus, probably, the Dapol 43XX.  Next year maybe the Dapol prairie, possibly the Dapol 'Manor', maybe somebody else's 'Manor'- (but might that be here sooner - who knows?),  Hornby large prairie variants (it has the capability for quite a lot of detail variation), more mogul variants (?), and whatever is yet to be announced - what if somebody does a really good 'Hall' or even a Metro?

Overall we don't necessarily know what is coming nor do we have much idea of when it will be here so for somebody in the business witha. series of GW engines it makes sense to spread their releases into the marketplace hoping to get product onto shop shelves in a gap between the arrival of other products.

[Oldddudders]

I'm quite sure drip-feeding the market coaxes more money out of more wallets. And it probably fits with the limited cash-flow available to any manufacturer - getting one model on sale at a time is expensive enough. 

 

And in marketing terms, as Ford put it some years back, when the super-sporty version of a new model was teased but not on sale at launch, "We don't want to let all our fireworks off at once!"

[mdvle]

11 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Checked Dap’s online catalogue earlier and it looks as if £139 was a bit optimistic.  This is the current price of the Prairie, on a ball park par with Hornby’s, and the DCC ready Mogul and Manor are £20 more. Seems about right. 

 

The £136 is street price not list, and works out correct with the typical 15% discount.

 

11 hours ago, The Johnster said:

As for 3 of each, I doubt if many will be able to afford to afford 3 at a time. There’s a difference in laying out £600 on several locos at once and the same amount of money over perhaps 18 months or 2 years...  

 

There is a variety in the budgets of people in this hobby, and while for many of us here on RMweb that is unthinkable there are just as many for whom it is just part of their yearly hobby purchase.

 

8 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

Even in the unlikely event Dapol, Hornby or the hypothetical other land 3 things together, and all three sell out, I'm sure they will do re-runs later.

 

The GWR is popular enough that Dapol, Hornby, and Bachmann will all very likely to at least second runs in the future, and likely more.

 

As for the Model Rail 16xx, wouldn't count on a re-run on that one but the good news is that Model Rail order enough that they keep stock on hand for a while.

 

But it isn't a question of re-runs in the future, but rather the ability of the manufacturer to cover the costs of developing the model.  When you are spending more than £100,000 bringing a model to market, and all of that money is spent before you get a single pound in revenue(*), you need to be very careful such that your product has the greatest chance of at the very least breaking even - and that means not creating unnecessary canalization of sales by bringing out similar models at the same time.  Otherwise you can end up with a business with no money, which normally doesn't end well.

 

* for those not familiar, when a manufacturer brings a new model to market, all of those big costs (CAD, tooling (the really expensive bit), and production) are paid in advance while the first revenue won't arrive until the first model goes out the door to a customer (for direct sales) or a period of x days later on product sold through retailers.  Consider that some of this, like the tooling, is completed and thus paid for 12 months or so prior to the model arriving, and one can easily see how managing cash flow is the highest priority for any of our model makers.

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

The £136 is street price not list, and works out correct with the typical 15% discount.

 

 

There is a variety in the budgets of people in this hobby, and while for many of us here on RMweb that is unthinkable there are just as many for whom it is just part of their yearly hobby purchase.

 

 

The GWR is popular enough that Dapol, Hornby, and Bachmann will all very likely to at least second runs in the future, and likely more.

 

As for the Model Rail 16xx, wouldn't count on a re-run on that one but the good news is that Model Rail order enough that they keep stock on hand for a while.

 

But it isn't a question of re-runs in the future, but rather the ability of the manufacturer to cover the costs of developing the model.  When you are spending more than £100,000 bringing a model to market, and all of that money is spent before you get a single pound in revenue(*), you need to be very careful such that your product has the greatest chance of at the very least breaking even - and that means not creating unnecessary canalization of sales by bringing out similar models at the same time.  Otherwise you can end up with a business with no money, which normally doesn't end well.

 

* for those not familiar, when a manufacturer brings a new model to market, all of those big costs (CAD, tooling (the really expensive bit), and production) are paid in advance while the first revenue won't arrive until the first model goes out the door to a customer (for direct sales) or a period of x days later on product sold through retailers.  Consider that some of this, like the tooling, is completed and thus paid for 12 months or so prior to the model arriving, and one can easily see how managing cash flow is the highest priority for any of our model makers.

 

 

Some of it might be paid out as much as 2 years before the model comes to market - say for a scan for example - although it is relatively small money (i.e. only a few thousand £s) until metal cutting starts.  But the latter can be as much as a year before the model hits the shops.

 

As for holding on to stock I seriously doubt anybody is really into that sort of situation now.  Look how Bachmann try to clear the warehouse annually and hoe Hornby did it with their fire sales.  Every model sitting ona shelf is an exoense against the bottom line of the business so the ideal is to sell whjat you make/have made as soon as it becomes available or within as short a period thereafter as you can.  I woy uld be surpridsed if many companies except the largest are able to internally finance new models so sales are needed to repay working capital or loans, or at the very least pay interest on them.

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 03/03/2020 at 06:00, NIK said:

Hi,

 

The announcement says they were lightweight 4-6-0s but were they light enough for Reading-Redhill?. I only ask as I model Reading to Tonbridge and I like to get models of locos that ran on the line.

 

Regards

 

Nick

In 1961 Trains Illustrated reported them as regularly working over the Redhill line with trains from the West Midlands to Margate

[Hilux5972]

Have just seen the new Manor will have a special edition available from

Dapol and the GWSR. Dinmore Manor in BR Early Black. Just preordered my one. 

[adb968008]

Link here..

https://www.Dapol.co.uk/In association with the GWSR Dapol proudly announce Dinmore Manor

 

order here..

https://www.Dapol.co.uk/shop/preorder/OO-Gauge-Preorder/78xx-4-6-0-Manor-Sound-Fitted

[Oldddudders]

My 1961/2 Ian Allan ABC tells me that I saw 7806 Cockington Manor. On 29.10.2015, Sherry and I were married in the Register Office there. I see a need to ensure I end up with one suitably renumbered! 

[gwrrob]

5 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

My 1961/2 Ian Allan ABC tells me that I saw 7806 Cockington Manor. On 29.10.2015, Sherry and I were married in the Register Office there. I see a need to ensure I end up with one suitably renumbered! 

 

Been in the small church there many times but never knew there was a registry office in the old Manor house.

[The Stationmaster]

On 05/06/2020 at 10:15, Hilux5972 said:

Have just seen the new Manor will have a special edition available from

Dapol and the GWSR. Dinmore Manor in BR Early Black. Just preordered my one. 

I wonder how many different tenders they are doing?

[Happy Hippo]

If Dapol are doing one in 4 mm scale, what's the possibility of a 7 mm version?

[The Johnster]

Pretty good I'd say; they've a track record of upsizing 4mm stuff like the railcar and the Sentinel  I'm living in the hope that they'll one day downsize their 7mm Diagram N auto trailer; there is an open goal in the RTR market here for anyone who wants to dip their toes in the fairly large sea of pre A28 trailers.

[tomparryharry]

22 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Pretty good I'd say; they've a track record of upsizing 4mm stuff like the railcar and the Sentinel  I'm living in the hope that they'll one day downsize their 7mm Diagram N auto trailer; there is an open goal in the RTR market here for anyone who wants to dip their toes in the fairly large sea of pre A28 trailers.

 

To kick that off, you will need a suitable subject for Dapol to go and have a look at. Then, you will need a USP (Unique Selling Point). Will Dapol actually make the model, such that it will compliment & enhance Dapols portfolio?

 

If you can answer 'yes' to the great majority of questions, then you're in with a chance. I'm not saying an absolute-gold-plated yes, as that sort of thing is down to Dapol, and certainly not me. But the combination of goodwill, prior information and desirability of any model helps it on its way. 

 

Go on Johnster; you know you want to.......

[The Johnster]

I'm deffo in the market for a 4mm Diagram N, as you are yourself you naughty man who wants me to make all the marketing running on his behalf.  I'm looking at the Sentinel, already avaialble in a blue NCB livery like the one at Blaengarw, but it's too pricey for now; I suddenly find myself in need of a colliery loco for the BR loco to exchange traffic with, and don't really want to spend a lot on something that will mostly operate out of sight in the fiddle yard but could put an appearance in occasionally to pick up the odd wagon of pit props or such, and then return the empty.

 

Perhaps we  could form a Diagram N lobby group of some sort; I have no confidence whatever in my ability to make Dapol take any notice of me on my own.  They probably get a dozen idiots a day asking them to make this or that in such and such a livery from people who are convinced that. just because they want a rebuilt TVR 04, they'll sell in thousands.  I doubt if there are more than 100 people in the world who want a 4mm Taff 04, and maybe another 2 or 3 hundred who'll buy one because it's there.  How many modellers do you suppose know what one is?  A diagram N trailer will be even toughter to shift off the shelves when the 20 or so of us who want one, you, me, and the other 18, have bough ours.

 

It's no good telling Dap that 4mm is a bigger market than 7mm; it's not like for like.  If you are modelling an RTR GW BLR in 7mm, there is only one auto trailer available, a 57 footer because space is at even more of a premium and minimum space layouts are perforce more common.  The obvious RTR trailer is the one with the largerst number built that lasted the longest time over the widest geographical spread, and if there were a variety of bogies and a choice of plated windows to keep the punters buying more, so much the better.  I give you (drum roll...)... the Diagram L, a 70' behemoth that lasted until 1958 and had American or 7' Collett bogies, as well as a plated version.  But the length plays against it in the model market, and nobody's ever done it, not even as a kit AFAIK.  Dap went for a 7mm diagram N, and have made a success out of it becuase  of it's being suitable for low volume low turnover high markup production.  The sums are different in 4mm.

[tomparryharry]

Some might say that 7mm is outstripping 4mm in terms of sales, subject to authentication, of course. 

 

If you want a diagram N trailer, you have to first, bring it to the attention of those people whom are liable to make an RTR model. The other avenue, it to speak to those nice people at Shapeways to print a shell for you. A tad expensive, but only pro-rata to its exclusivity. 

 

My continued angle here, that I believe that polite discussion and proper enquiries can & will bear fruit. It's no point shouting down the internet "Why don't you make this?" It gets you nowhere. Perhaps another question might be:- "What are the protocols & criteria for model X?" If you make/produce a model, how does that fit into the wider catalogue/portfolio  of Dapol? Hornby have got this pretty bang on, making coaches to complement the large Prairie. "Now then, now then, who's interested in a Metro tank, and an autocoach? Anyone interested? It's just wishlisting on my part, but you need to generate sufficient interest & want to make it viable. 

 

Perhaps we need Mr. McDermott to include this for the next Poll, if he hasn't got the information at his fingertips already.  

 

Cheers,

Ian.

[Craigw]

17 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I  I give you (drum roll...)... the Diagram L, a 70' behemoth that lasted until 1958 and had American or 7' Collett bogies, as well as a plated version.  But the length plays against it in the model market, and nobody's ever done it, not even as a kit AFAIK.  Dap went for a 7mm diagram N, and have made a success out of it becuase  of it's being suitable for low volume low turnover high markup production.  The sums are different in 4mm.

 

Was in the David Geen range, originally from CPL ...

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

 

 

[Mark]

On 10/06/2020 at 12:40, Craigw said:

 

Was in the David Geen range, originally from CPL ...

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

 

 

I don’t think so.

 

The David Geen Great Western Coaches were new designs. The original artwork for the early kits was done by Carl Legg specifically for David but after he passed away Martin Needham did the etch design. I don’t think they were ever part of the CPL range.
 

Regards

 

Mark Humphrys

 

 

[Craigw]

23 hours ago, Mark said:

I don’t think so.

 

The David Geen Great Western Coaches were new designs. The original artwork for the early kits was done by Carl Legg specifically for David but after he passed away Martin Needham did the etch design. I don’t think they were ever part of the CPL range.
 

Regards

 

Mark Humphrys

 

 

 

Hi Mark,

 

I just read through the instructions and notes with the L/P. The kit had its origins with a Carl Legg and Malcolm Mitchell project and David Geen appears to have purchased it. Carl Legg started to do some changes before he passed away and David included a supplementary detail etch with the basic body. This etch has the steps on it. One of the etches has CPL products on it. 

 

I have a few David Geen coach kits and I think this is the only one that was not original.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

[Mark]

16 minutes ago, Craigw said:

 

Hi Mark,

 

I just read through the instructions and notes with the L/P. The kit had its origins with a Carl Legg and Malcolm Mitchell project and David Geen appears to have purchased it. Carl Legg started to do some changes before he passed away and David included a supplementary detail etch with the basic body. This etch has the steps on it. One of the etches has CPL products on it. 

 

I have a few David Geen coach kits and I think this is the only one that was not original.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

Ok thanks for that. I have this kit as well but the etches are still safely sealed so I assumed it would be the same as the others. I remember when David was developing it and an individual in our local group joking that the guy doing the etches should pull his finger out because it was taking too long and then being told he had just died!

 

To get back on topic this is the current state of play with my Michell Manor:

 

 

 

Regards

 

Mark Humphrys

[David Stannard]

7 minutes ago, Mark said:

Ok thanks for that. I have this kit as well but the etches are still safely sealed so I assumed it would be the same as the others. I remember when David was developing it and an individual in our local group joking that the guy doing the etches should pull his finger out because it was taking too long and then being told he had just died!

 

To get back on topic this is the current state of play with my Michell Manor:

 

 

 

Regards

 

Mark Humphrys

 

 That looks absolutely gorgeous, for me the Manor's have always been one of the most elegantly proportioned locomotives ever made.

[tomparryharry]

That looks spot-on. Very nice indeed!

[atom3624]

I'd love to see that fully prepared, yet strangely it almost looks too good to paint!

Fantastic looking model / replica.

 

Al.

[MPR]

3 hours ago, Mark said:

Ok thanks for that. I have this kit as well but the etches are still safely sealed so I assumed it would be the same as the others. I remember when David was developing it and an individual in our local group joking that the guy doing the etches should pull his finger out because it was taking too long and then being told he had just died!

 

To get back on topic this is the current state of play with my Michell Manor:

 

 

 

Regards

 

Mark Humphrys

How much of that is original, Mark? There seems to be an awful lot of nickel silver above the running plate.