New layout in converted garage

[Johnny Rock]

I'm converting my garage into a designated model railway space. (Luxury). The space  available is 4.5m by 2.7 m. 

I'm modelling a section of the Settle and Carlisle line, namely Kirkby Stephen / Armathwaite track layout. 

My main problems are the following:

1. to achieve a reasonable running length.
2. The need for a fiddle yard somewhere.
3. A through station
4. A small viaduct. 

I did consider an end to end with dumbbells but would limit the space for  running length. 

 

Interested in any ideas from RM members.

[Robert Stokes]

To achieve a good length of scenic run you could use a folded figure of eight design. This would mean trains run twice round the whole garage before returning to the same point. You could have the fiddle yard under part of the scenis run but this might need gradients that were too steep. Another possibility is to have the FY on the same level but behind some scenery.

 

Good luck with the project whatever you decide.

 

Robert

Edited March 3, 2020 by Robert Stokes
spelling

[Derekl]

I am about to do much the same, although I have had the old garage demolished and am to get a new prefabricated concrete garage size shed erected (tomorrow, as it happens). I think mine ends up at much the same size (as one might expect). My objects are similar (in 00 gauge).

 

My thoughts are a station on one long side and a fiddle yard on the other. I agree that an end to end with dumbbells would not work, unless one adopted ridiculously tight radius curves. I would tend to avoid the figure of eight as past experience has put me off gradients, perhaps because the period (late 1950s, early 60s) does mean use of steam outline locos which can have their moments on gradients. I also thought that it might be an idea to try and keep it simple for a one person operation.

 

My thoughts were that if you push the station towards one of the ends, you might get some through running, but it will be short, although there should be space for a viaduct. Part of the problem is that while it sounds like a lot of space, once you put in the necessary curves at each end it tends to be reduced. I was aiming to keep reasonably large radius curves, thoughts being 3' hidden, 4' plus in the open area. That knocks nearly a hefty 3 metres off the length, unless some subterfuge is adopted. Part of the station could be on a curve, although I would like that to be pretty gentle.

 

My thoughts were also leaning towards a junction with a branch terminus station (above or in front of the fiddle yard - yes I know that means a grade if above) to add some operational interest and avoid the continuous run effect with a series of trains passing each way - great for an exhibition, less so for a home layout (in my view). 

 

So far my doodling on track layout certainly does not warrant publication. I have had a look for inspiration at the Midland stations on the Derby - Manchester line. Unfortunately, these are problematic for space as the layout tends to be passenger station in the form of platforms and a cross over with the goods facilities generally a little further along. There are also the usual Midland goods loops beyond the station which would have to be abandoned. About the most useful is Chapel-en-le-Frith, but I am still pondering that. 

 

I have delayed any actual detailed planning pending erection of the shed, insulation and so on, so that I know exactly what space I have. It's all a bit pipe dream until then, but I hope my own thoughts on the subject are helpful to you - this wasn't intended as a hi-jack and I hope it doesn't look like that.

Edited March 3, 2020 by Derekl
Add gauge

[scottystitch]

59 minutes ago, Johnny Rock said:

I'm converting my garage into a designated model railway space. (Luxury). The space  available is 4.5m by 2.7 m. 

I'm modelling a section of the Settle and Carlisle line, namely Kirkby Stephen / Armathwaite track layout. 

My main problems are the following:

1. to achieve a reasonable running length.
2. The need for a fiddle yard somewhere.
3. A through station
4. A small viaduct. 

I did consider an end to end with dumbbells but would limit the space for  running length. 

 

Interested in any ideas from RM members.

 

N Gauge?

[Harlequin]

@Johnny Rock There's a recent design for a similar sized garage here:

Your space is shorter but wider but it should be possible to use a similar arrangement where the scenic part uses one long side and one end wall with the main line cutting through it on a gently curving diagonal. That would leave the other long side for your fiddle yard.

 

[Pete the Elaner]

S&C is hilly so this should make landscape fun & quick to build.

Station on a long side, viaduct around one of the ends. Hills everywhere with tunnels as scenic breaks & maybe a couple of sidings at the non-viaduct end.

Take your time with the viaduct & this can be the layout's main feature.

[Johnny Rock]

These are all great ideas and thoughts. Very helpful. Does anyone have any experience of the Power Base system to increase loco traction on inclines? Similarly any  suggestions of how to access lower level fiddle yards and storage sidings? 

[Johnny Rock]

Lots of S and C prototype plans are available on freetrackplans.com. 

This is the Kirkby Stephen plan. 

Edited March 6, 2020 by Johnny Rock

[ITG]

Bought but not yet used  Powerbase but the video on DCC Concepts site (you tube) is very impressive.

 

as for accessing hidden sidings, failure to anticipate that appropriately is one of the reasons I am planning a complete rebuild. I started off with a 7’x2’ board (on that part of layout) above another of same size, then realised I had to cut access holes in lower board to  reach upwards, with a strange uncomfortable bend of arm to try to get to any derailments etc. Far from satisfactory.

also, I originally calculated clearance, taking into account upper baseboard thickness and frame thickness. Then belatedly during construction added metal L shaped corner brackets. Still ok, but I now see just one specific loco can catch (just) on a slightly protruding screw head above it, as it goes through lower storage loop. Doh!

Also, I discovered 3% gradient (at least on curved track) does need the Powerbase- hence relaying that section of track.

 

As a result of both above issues, I now spend hours on  Anyrail planning and calculating clearances and gradients for the next time round!

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

This is a space many would consider trading significant anatomy for, but the railway sprawls. How to use a single level 'oval' in this space?

 

A compromise is required, and putting the platforms around a relatively gentle curve at one end is a good place to start (60" radius looks well), yard along the long side, small viaduct some way around the curve at the other end.

 

One of the questions is just how small a radius curve you will use 'off scene' for your fiddle yard / storage / rest of the railway?

 

I would suggest that current OO runs much better if a radius of 24" is the minimum - if you can push that up to 30" even better - with matching Peco streamline points.

 

If you go two level with gradients, (and you will need powerbase for most steam) then put the fiddle yard in front and below a scenic section of plain track running through countryside. Access is everything...

[Harlequin]

29 minutes ago, Johnny Rock said:

Lots of S and C prototype plans are available on freetrackplans.com. 

This is the Kirkby Stephen plan. 

 

This is Setrack. Very small radius turnouts and not what you want if you're trying to represent the S&C. It also lacks a crucial single slip - really not a very helpful plan!

 

Edited March 6, 2020 by Harlequin

[Nearholmer]

Two levels, but not stacked, would look pretty good in a setting of soaring hills - the sort of thing US modellers do very well.

 

i’m imagining scenery starting at knee height, rising to above eye level at the back, with two ‘shelves’ forming a gently-graded looped-eight.

 

No fully hidden FY, but a series of loops on the upper level concealed by hilltops, so in a sort of open trench. 

 

im not in a place where I can sketch right now, but will do later if I remember.

 

The thing to remember is that if you are in the middle, viewing the ‘hills’ around you, the slopes can be much steeper than reality, without looking wrong, and by using subtly different colouring, you can move from ‘full 3D’ to ‘total 2D’ in three or four layers, even in a depth (front of layout to walls) of say 750mm.
 

 

Edited March 6, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Joseph_Pestell]

Kirkby Stephen needs about 24' in 4mm scale. You may just about get this by curving the scenic part of the layout around two walls as Phil (Harlequin) has pointed out - and perhaps having a road overbridge as a scenic break rather than an underbridge as at KS.

Various other S&C stations might fit better and be just as interesting to operate.

I think that there is a lot to be said for having the fiddleyard behind a low backscene and a double-track loop of open countryside in front of that, possibly with a typical small S&C viaduct.. But it would depend on how many trains you need to accommodate in the fiddle yard.

[Johnny Rock]

These are all great and helpful comments. Thanks. 

My early design doodlings include a curved station similar to  Dent and a small 5 arch viaduct. I've put together 2 Wills kits and will look good. On a previous post by Kirkby Lunesdale they included an actual Kirkby Stephen track plan which looks so good. I'm planning on having the layout run on three sides of the garage as there is a small door to accommodate and also a window.  

Baseboard will be...

S and C baseboard plan.docx

[Joseph_Pestell]

Now we have the baseboard plan...….

 

I can't see any sensible way of making that work.

[Nearholmer]

Ah, yes, challenging indeed!

 

I thought were we’re allowed to go all the way round all four walls.

 

You’re going to have to go for some hefty selective compression, and quite tight curves to ‘dog-bone’ it, which will make it much harder to achieve the feel of wind-swept upland.

 

Can you really not go right round the outside?

 

 

[Johnny Rock]

I can to an extent as long as room to enter through new right hand side door. This would allow storage loops along the window wall. 

[DCB]

The S+C was characterised by big sweeping curves and gentle gradients. I know they struck fear into the Midland Firemen  but at around 1 in 90 they were less than half as steep as the ones down Devon on the LSWR and GWR.

It was also perched on a hillside miles from the towns it purported to serve.

Kirkby Stephen has a road underbridge off the platform end which is quite distinctive in addition to the over bridge some distance further on.   I think all round the room is going to be essential to get a realistic layout.  We have a liftimg section by the door, in fact a double deck lifting section and we can get someone in or out in under 15 seconds .  so don't let that put you off.  it just has to be engineered properly not built like a door on its side, either that or be a model of Ribblehead viaduct on castors.

[Harlequin]

35 minutes ago, Johnny Rock said:

I can to an extent as long as room to enter through new right hand side door. This would allow storage loops along the window wall. 

Do you mean the door is in one of the long walls? If so, that makes things much more difficult.

 

[Johnny Rock]

Fortunately the door is on the short side. I'm now thinking that a lifting or hinged section of the fiddle yard near the door maybe useful instead of the tedious ducking under to access the layout. (Previous bumps on the head testify to this!!

[Nearholmer]

If you can show where the door is on a sketch, that would help a lot.

 

My ex-garage utility/layout room has a door in the long side near one end, and that is dealt with by a (rather too large) lifting flap, but if I was to start again I’d probably create a swing-out section on castors, a sort of cupboard on wheels with a bit of layout on top.

[Johnny Rock]

Found this superb plan of Kirkby Luneside a ficticious S and C layout. 

[Johnny Rock]

Following the excellent replies and suggestions from others. I've put a possible plan together. The entry door is in the top right of this image. Its a bit rough but its a start!

[Nearholmer]

If the door opens inwards, job number one is to make it open outwards - you will find that helps things immensely.

[Johnny Rock]

The door is not on yet as I'm creating a partition wall from the front part of the garage to create a storage space. Therefore the door can be hung either way. Garage up and over door also being replaced with side hinged doors.