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Electrofrog first timer...


meatloaf
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There are several answers to this.

 

One extreme is:

If you are happy to feed power with the blades & have a minimum number of power feeds, then you only need 2: 1 at the top left & another in the bottom right.

 

& at the other extreme:

There should be instructions for "wiring for DCC". This is a complete misnomer because it has nothing to do with DCC & everything to do with reliability....so wire them this way.

Add IRJs to the heel (frog) end of each point, You only need to use them on the 2 connections to the frog itself.

Then power feeds:, 1 for each loop or siding. Some go further, using 1 or even 2 for each rail.

Add switches to a control panel for all sections you may want to switch off.

 

I would choose the second extreme because:

Carrying current with blades can be unreliable. Since Peco have re-designed their pointwork "for DCC" (a term which I detest because it is just so wrong), a good connection between stock & switch rail has almost become an afterthought. You will never have to mess about cleaning point blades. A track rubber on the rail tops is all the cleaning you are ever likely to need.

It really is easier than it sounds, especially when troubleshooting because you have small, easy sections to troubleshoot instead of a "why does that point make a difference?" scenario.

Apart from the section switches, the wiring technique is identical for DCC. That may not be important now but the experience could be in the future.

This method will give you a more reliable layout.

 

I got involved with wiring a friend's layout at an early stage & instead of being somewhere between frustrating & embarrassing like his previous layout, it gave perfect reliability during its exhibition life.

 

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Totally agree with above advice as 'best practice. However, if you want to keep things simpler just add IRJs to the frogs and wire to all track.

 

Peco Electrofrog points are designed to be used without modification or switches.  I've been using this method for the last 10 years on my small layouts and not had any problems.

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13 minutes ago, meatloaf said:

thanks for the replies.

The 2nd extreme seems the way to go.

I don't really need to motorise the points but I am considering using dcc80 units to switch the frog polarity

 

Only if you're using DCC; not suitable for DC!

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If you are wiring for DC with electrofrogs and 1 amp circuit breakers you only need five insulators and five feeds.

I wired a layout like this 35 years ago and it still works fine.

 

If you use fine scale track with non conductive fish plates then you need feeds to each piece of rail.

 

If you go with DCC  you need extra isolators and feeds to the sidings and remote frog switching if you add 1 amp circuit breakers.

 

If you go with DCC plus sound and lights in addition to the extra isolators and feeds to the sidings you will need remote switching of the electro frog as you will likely exceed 1 amp consumption  so you can't have 1 amp circuit breakers.

 

Much DCC is 2to 4 amp and OO fishplates and point blade power switching win't cope with more than 1 amp.   I have had fishplates red hot on 2 amps.848631829_Screenshot(215).png.c8ad07d2eb1d63f2eacbd661efc4c175.png

 

 

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2 hours ago, meatloaf said:

Apologis im on DCC ive posted in the wrong place.  Maybe a mod can move it to the right section.

 

 

In that case, forget about the switches. You will want sections on all the time so connect them to a bus (pair of connectors providing as low a resistance back to the control system as possible.

You probably won't want minimal feeds either. These will leave sidings dead sometimes.

Better to have them all live so you can leave lights & sound on when locos/trains are stationary.

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Im struggling with this. Ive slightly modified the trackplan and for now done away with the kickback siding.

 

Ive highlighted in black and red where the track feed is and in blue where the insulated joiners are.

 

Im struggling because if point A is set to straight the loco runs fine along that line but everything else below that point is dead.

 

Change point A to curved route and everything is live except the top track which goes dead, apart from beyond the crossover marked as B which is live? 

 

When point A is curved the bottom two sidings are live even if there point is against them

 

Help!!! Where should other track feeds be? What am I missing I bet its something obvious

 

 

 

 

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For DCC, you can put feeds just about everywhere so that no section is 'dead' when the points are set against the route. I would suggest at position B on your plan plus going southwards from B to the other three sidings, plus both parts of the loop. All parts should then be alive for the purposes of DCC (those using DC look away :)).

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

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Ive finally done it...

 

I ended up putting IRJs on all frogs. All the tracks at the B end now have feed wires at the ends of the tracks. Ive also pit a pair of feeds on the top part of the loop and a single feed on the lower part of the loop.

 

The cabling will need to be neatened up a bit so ill get more wire tomorrow. But for now its all working as it should

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2 hours ago, meatloaf said:

Im struggling with this. Ive slightly modified the trackplan and for now done away with the kickback siding.

 

Ive highlighted in black and red where the track feed is and in blue where the insulated joiners are.

 

Im struggling because if point A is set to straight the loco runs fine along that line but everything else below that point is dead.

 

Change point A to curved route and everything is live except the top track which goes dead, apart from beyond the crossover marked as B which is live? 

 

When point A is curved the bottom two sidings are live even if there point is against them

 

Help!!! Where should other track feeds be? What am I missing I bet its something obvious

 

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(Deep breath). Looking at the top track (A-B), if point A is set straight, the top rail is negative (black) and the bottom positive. Because you are using an electrofrog point both rails are positive below that point. You should be able to check this with a meter between the negative rail at the top and any piece of rail below. The track beyond point B  has its positive feed via the crossover because you have an insulator before the point (I think, your diagram is not clear).

When you switch point A, the top rail remains negative but the bottom rail becomes negative as well, up to point B where you have an isolator. The bottom rail beyond the point becomes positive if the point above A is thrown to the curved route.

The general rule with electrofrogs is put the feed into the 'toe' and put isolators after the frog. Put feeds into the sidings. This will ensure all tracks are live whatever the point setting.

I would use a multimeter to learn what is happening as you change points.

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So the layout is now up and running and all wired up correctly. Whilst at one of my local shops I saw the DCC concepts busbar and it tidied up the wiring no end.

 

Whilst the trackplan is fairly simple I feel very pleased to have done it. I had wanted a DCC Sound 03 from Bachmann but feared that the old insulfrogs would casue issues, but now when funds allow it will be the next loco purchase.

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