Hornby R355-MR-PO05 Class 4P Compound

[midlands]

Hi there chaps..

 

Slightly confused over a recent addition to my to do box. A Hornby 4p compound 4-4-0, During inspecting for damage I noticed no sign of any visible cylinders?...wierd or makers ballsup? I checked the R number against other photo's of the various versions of the 4p 4-4-0, Hattens have one in the Midlands red livery, but low and behold! the thing has grown outside cylinders, And extra crankshafts, crossheads ect. Sooo, the same item but different livery means visible cylinders and valve gear? The black livery I bought has no cylinders.

https://www.hattons.co.uk/160046/hornby_r355_mr_u01_class_4p_compound_4_4_0_1000_in_mr_maroon_pre_owned_imperfect_box_missing_som/stockdetail.aspx

IS link to hattons maroon version.

This is link to hattons page with the one I purchased.

https://www.hattons.co.uk/397709/hornby_r355_mr_po05_class_4p_compound_4_4_0_690_in_lms_black_pre_owned_renumbered_and_repainted_re/stockdetail.aspx

 

 

Does anyone know if this is some manufacturing ballsup or me being thick?

 

Roger

[Wheatley]

You appear to have bought a Tri-ang L1 painted up to look like a Fowler 2P. They are similar shapes but different proportions, and inside cylindered. The SR green version of the L1 was R350.

Edited March 3, 2020 by Wheatley

[midlands]

hmmmm, So to be absolutely sure,  I need find the place on the body where te R number is stamped, it has "Made in Gt Britain" and "Hornby Railways"   stamped on footplate beneath front .

 

You'd have thought someone at Hattons would have picked  up on that. but, well, I thought it was maybe a goof of the original manufaturers.

[kevinlms]

52 minutes ago, midlands said:

Hi there chaps..

 

Slightly confused over a recent addition to my to do box. A Hornby 4p compound 4-4-0, During inspecting for damage I noticed no sign of any visible cylinders?...wierd or makers ballsup? I checked the R number against other photo's of the various versions of the 4p 4-4-0, Hattens have one in the Midlands red livery, but low and behold! the thing has grown outside cylinders, And extra crankshafts, crossheads ect. Sooo, the same item but different livery means visible cylinders and valve gear? The black livery I bought has no cylinders.

https://www.hattons.co.uk/160046/hornby_r355_mr_u01_class_4p_compound_4_4_0_1000_in_mr_maroon_pre_owned_imperfect_box_missing_som/stockdetail.aspx

IS link to hattons maroon version.

This is link to hattons page with the one I purchased.

https://www.hattons.co.uk/397709/hornby_r355_mr_po05_class_4p_compound_4_4_0_690_in_lms_black_pre_owned_renumbered_and_repainted_re/stockdetail.aspx

 

 

Does anyone know if this is some manufacturing ballsup or me being thick?

 

Roger

No balls up from the manufacturers. It isn't a 4P compound at all, but a 2P which was inside cylindered.

It is wrongly labelled by Hattons.

[midlands]

5 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

No balls up from the manufacturers. It isn't a 4P compound at all, but a 2P which was inside cylindered.

It is wrongly labelled by Hattons.

 yeah, sounds iffy all over....Im even more twitchy now. the tender has part number, i;ll look that up if i can. thanks guys.

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, midlands said:

 yeah, sounds iffy all over....Im even more twitchy now. the tender has part number, i;ll look that up if i can. thanks guys.

Not dodgy at all, a genuine Tri-ang Hornby model. R450

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_details.asp?itemid=58

 

Misdescribed by Hattons.

[The Johnster]

It’s not a manufacturing balls up or you being thick, it’s a mistaken description by Hattons. The loco is not a Midland 4P compound, but a Triang Hornby Midland 2P, correctly numbered (Compounds were in the 10xx-11xx series), an inside cylinder 4-4-0.  The LMS lined black livery is factory applied; Compounds were given crimson lake livery.  
 

The Triang Hornby Midland 2P was based on the earlier Triang SECR L1 (the prototype L1 was based on the Midland 2P), but has a retooled Midland cab.

[midlands]

1 hour ago, kevinlms said:

Not dodgy at all, a genuine Tri-ang Hornby model. R450

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_details.asp?itemid=58

 

Misdescribed by Hattons.

wow, thats the one....thanks so much...looks like a keeper though, its nearly a antique. I have been looking for hours, the model itself bears no semblance to any other models of that class, the boiler bands are wrong, dome in wrong place, that big black box under the boiler hiding the motor works. yeah, the motor sticks the rear bearing block into the cab...very triang like. I  can't wait to get the blades out to carve up the pipes/grab rails that are several feet deep and various bits that just don't belong! but before the carve up, learn how to add collectors to the tender and pipe it through to the motor, 4 drivers are the only pick ups.

Thanks again kevinlms and all you other guys who pitched in...goes off to prepare the carvery table..

[midlands]

4 hours ago, Wheatley said:

You appear to have bought a Tri-ang L1 painted up to look like a Fowler 2P. They are similar shapes but different proportions, and inside cylindered. The SR green version of the L1 was R350.

just nipped over to check out the L1 class, the Hornby model looks almost identical to the 2p compound thingy...So you were bang on..I could only see a couple of differences.

[DCB]

The L1 looked superficially like a 2P but there was no comparison between the two for power output at high speed.

The L1 was based on the L class  which predated the LMS 2P. The styling copied the Midland style for some bizarre reason      Many 2Ps were rebuilds of earlier locos which originally had round top fireboxes.  I think it was in "Firing Days at Saltley" that i saw a 2P described as the ideal loco for pulling a single bogie van at 60MPH   

The Hornby 2P comes in two versions,  Loco drive which does not look much like a 2P but runs well andthe Tender drive which looks like a 2P until it runs and the tender starts jumping around like a demented frog.

[Wheatley]

2 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

 

The Hornby 2P comes in two versions,  Loco drive which does not look much like a 2P but runs well andthe Tender drive which looks like a 2P until it runs and the tender starts jumping around like a demented frog.

The 2P based on the L1 which Midlander has bought might only look superficially like  a 2P but the current loco drive model and the older tender drive model are the same moulding above the footplate. 

[Poor Old Bruce]

1 hour ago, Wheatley said:

The 2P based on the L1 which Midlander has bought might only look superficially like  a 2P but the current loco drive model and the older tender drive model are the same moulding above the footplate. 

 

Some ambiguity there I think. The current loco drive and older tender drive locos are descendants from the 1980s Airfix/Mainline/Dapol model which do use similar mouldings between them. Apart from the wheel arrangement they are nothing like the Tri-ang bodged L1 which Midlander has. Hattons should take it back as it was mis-described.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Except that the purchaser appears to like the item.

 

I am all for misdescription. A fruitful source of low prices for those that know what they are looking at.

[kevinlms]

10 hours ago, midlands said:

just nipped over to check out the L1 class, the Hornby model looks almost identical to the 2p compound thingy...So you were bang on..I could only see a couple of differences.

The 2P wasn't a compound, just a simple. The real compounds (all types, not just Midland) all have more than 2 cylinders - someone is bound to correct me on that rash statement!

 

There was an excellent story in 'Mendips Enginemen' by Peter Smith on the Somerset & Dorset, where he recounts an occasion a 2P was piloting a train, with a Bulleid Pacific as train engine.

The Pacific slipped all the way through a tunnel, but the 2P remained surefooted and effectively dragged the whole train through. Thus saving the bigger loco footplate men a rough time, on a stalled train in the tunnel.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

7 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

... The real compounds (all types, not just Midland) all have more than 2 cylinders - someone is bound to correct me on that rash statement!...

Two cylinders are quite sufficient for compound working. Well known example:

https://www.lner.info/locos/J/j21.php

[melmerby]

15 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

The 2P wasn't a compound, just a simple. The real compounds (all types, not just Midland) all have more than 2 cylinders - someone is bound to correct me on that rash statement!

 

You shouldn't have set such a challenge

 

The Zillertalbahn in Austria had some 2 cyl compounds. The HP cylinder was on the right, the LP was on the left (both outside)

Here's a picture of No3 taken by me in 1980:

Edited March 4, 2020 by melmerby

[DCB]

40 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Two cylinders are quite sufficient for compound working. Well known example:

https://www.lner.info/locos/J/j21.php

Aerolite in the NRM is a 2 cyl compound.  Worsdell Von Boris type.  The only one left in the UK I believe. NRM Morons are too interested in chuggig you for a voluntary £10 donation to realise what they have.   No notice of any kind referencing its importance when I last went there.  I do not like being 'king chugged.

 

The usual sensible practice is to pair the cylinders one HP to one LP only an idiot would have two small high pessure and one huge low pressure cylinder.     Francis Webb built a lot of compounds with 2 HP cyls and one huge LP. Even he saw the light and went fr two HP and two LP.  His successor greatly improved them by removing the HP cyls and admitting HP steam to the remaining LP cyls.

 

I had not taken on board that the latest 2P was a loco drive version of the 1980s Tender drive.  In that case it looks good and runs well, until it comes to a point if its anything like our T9...     Had to swap the traction tyre wheel  rims for non traction tyre ones and now it won't pull the skin off the proverbial ducks back

[kevinlms]

1 minute ago, melmerby said:

You shouldn't have set such a challenge

 

The Zillertalbahn in Austria had some 2 cyl compounds. The HP cylinder was on the right, the LP was on the left (both outside)

I was thinking of BRITISH locos, but had forgotten that the NER were a bit strange! No doubt Americans had some as well.

[The Johnster]

7 hours ago, Poor Old Bruce said:

 

Some ambiguity there I think. The current loco drive and older tender drive locos are descendants from the 1980s Airfix/Mainline/Dapol model which do use similar mouldings between them. Apart from the wheel arrangement they are nothing like the Tri-ang bodged L1 which Midlander has. Hattons should take it back as it was mis-described.

This isn't a Triang bodged L1, it's a Triang Hornby LMS 2P, which post-dated the L1 though was a development of it (I believe the only difference was the cab, which correctly had a side window on the L1 and correctly doesn't on the 2P), but pre-dated the Hornby 2P which was inherited from Airfix with tender drive and later developed into a loco drive version.  The OP's loco isn't a bodge or a repaint, it's as produced by Triang Hornby in the 80s.  

 

Hatton's have added to the confusion by describing it as a 4P compound; Hornby did make this as well, but it's a completely different, bigger loco with outside cylinders and motion.  I don't think it ever had tender drive.

[midlands]

Hi all, Thanks for all the help chaps,  there was some definate confusion there at times.

 

The big question is what do I do with it, put it all back together and ask Hattons to  refund me/replace with correct model?

The model was one of their pre-owned offers if that makes any difference to the deal.

At the moment, the loco runs poorly and very intermittent, also only has pickups on the four drivers.not good, I would at the very least, need to add some form of extra pickups, replace the original magnahesion drivers and tenders plastic wheels, the drivers are full of micro cracks on the running suface. It has been well loved. And it wouldnt be much use without a complete repaint and livery plus some form of detailing kit...I am of course wondering if that is worth the trouble because at the end of the day it's still an ancient monster from hornbys past and the tooling pattern in those days comes nowhere near the actuall locomotive.

 

any ideas?

 

Roger

[pH]

Interesting information on compounds on the LNER  and constituent companies. Mostly NER, which I knew about, but there were compounds on other lines. (NBR, anyone? )

 

https://www.lner.info/article/tech/compound/compounds.php

[kevinlms]

4 hours ago, midlands said:

Hi all, Thanks for all the help chaps,  there was some definate confusion there at times.

 

The big question is what do I do with it, put it all back together and ask Hattons to  refund me/replace with correct model?

The model was one of their pre-owned offers if that makes any difference to the deal.

At the moment, the loco runs poorly and very intermittent, also only has pickups on the four drivers.not good, I would at the very least, need to add some form of extra pickups, replace the original magnahesion drivers and tenders plastic wheels, the drivers are full of micro cracks on the running suface. It has been well loved. And it wouldnt be much use without a complete repaint and livery plus some form of detailing kit...I am of course wondering if that is worth the trouble because at the end of the day it's still an ancient monster from hornbys past and the tooling pattern in those days comes nowhere near the actuall locomotive.

 

any ideas?

 

Roger

It comes down to personal choice. Obviously, the model was misdescribed by Hattons, so you have every right to return it on that basis.

If you want to improve the model in some way, then take the plunge and keep it. But there is going to be a fair bit of work. Personally, if I wanted a 2P specifically I would start with the much later offering.

[midlands]

Thanks Kevin, I value your opinion...It would be quite a large scale project to drag the model up to even close to todays standeds. Therefor I will aproach hattons and hopefully they will refund my wedge towards a later version of the 4p 4-4-0.

 

I'd prefer a locomotive driven vers as apposed to tender driven...not seen any good reviews of the tender drives so far. Has anyone actually owned a Hornby locomotive drive version and if so, how does it run?

[Poor Old Bruce]

16 hours ago, The Johnster said:

This isn't a Triang bodged L1, it's a Triang Hornby LMS 2P, which post-dated the L1 though was a development of it (I believe the only difference was the cab, which correctly had a side window on the L1 and correctly doesn't on the 2P), but pre-dated the Hornby 2P which was inherited from Airfix with tender drive and later developed into a loco drive version.  The OP's loco isn't a bodge or a repaint, it's as produced by Triang Hornby in the 80s.  

 

Hatton's have added to the confusion by describing it as a 4P compound; Hornby did make this as well, but it's a completely different, bigger loco with outside cylinders and motion.  I don't think it ever had tender drive.

 

Sorry Johnster, I seem to have introduced some more ambiguity myself. What I meant was that it was Tri-ang who did the bodging of the L1 by fitting a different cab to make it look something like an LMS 2P. I did not mean to suggest it was a post-sale modification by a previous owner.

 

Changing tack a bit, I saw a working two-cylinder compound in Austria about 50 years ago, it was a 2-6-0T on station pilot duties somewhere. It was strange to hear only two exhaust beats per wheel revolution.

[The Johnster]

No apology necessary, Bruce.