Hornby R355-MR-PO05 Class 4P Compound

[Compound2632]

On 04/03/2020 at 04:47, DavidCBroad said:

The L1 was based on the L class  which predated the LMS 2P. The styling copied the Midland style for some bizarre reason     

 

Nothing bizarre there. Richard Maunsell's chief draughtsman, James Clayton, had previously been chief assistant draughtsman in the Derby Locomotive Drawing Office, where, among other things, he had been responsible for the design of the S&DJR 2-8-0s. He is said to have brought with him a large roll of Derby detail drawings. 

 

One can't really say that the L1 or L predated the LMS 2P since the latter was very closely based on the Midland 483 Class superheater 4-4-0s of 1912. These were essentially new locomotives of new design, only being regarded as rebuilds of earlier engines for accounting purposes. Clayton was still at Derby when they were being designed.

 

As to @midlands's purchase, it is indeed the old Triang-Hornby 2P, derived from the Triang-Hornby or Triang L1, and not to be confused with the ex-Airfix 2P still in the Hornby catalogue; the latter being a much better though far from perfect representation of a 2P.

[Rowsley17D]

I have a Hornby loco-driven 2P which runs fine. Two of the drivers have tyres which some people dislike. One has recent come off mine and I have yet to put it back on. On my level track layout it still pulls 5 bogies (I've not tried more.) One of the worst things about it is the dome.

 

[midlands]

1 hour ago, Rowsley17D said:

have a Hornby loco-driven 2P which runs fine. Two of the drivers have tyres which some people dislike. One has recent come off mine and I have yet to put it back on. On my level track layout it still pulls 5 bogies (I've not tried more.) One of the worst things about it is the dome.

Super foto Jonathon. looks great at the head  of the coaches..Shame about the tyres, how many current collectors has it got...and what's up with the dome

[Rowsley17D]

Hi Midlands

 

The latest Hornby 2P is loco -driven and picks up off all wheels including the tender wheels except the tyred drivers. The dome slopes too much, it's not chunky enough. One day I'll do some butchery and take it off for a brass one.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 5, 2020 by Rowsley17D

[Legend]

Watch out though you are getting models confused . The one you bought from Hattons is a Hornby 2P released in 1973 and lasting through to 74 . The pictures above of a Hornby 2P are the much later Hornby ones that actually use tooling developed for Airfix, but bought from Dapol . There are a couple of variants of this model . One is tender drive , but the later ones are loco drive .

[Butler Henderson]

15 minutes ago, Legend said:

The pictures above of a Hornby 2P are the much later Hornby ones that actually use tooling developed for Airfix, but bought from Dapol .

The 2P was introduced by Mainline just before they ceased, it never featured in any list of locos Airfix were going to produce.

[Legend]

1 minute ago, Butler Henderson said:

The 2P was introduced by Mainline just before they ceased, it never featured in any list of locos Airfix were going to produce.

 

It was originally developed for Airfix . I think it may even have appeared in the back ground of one of the Airfix catalogues (like Bulleid coaches). It was never released by Airfix but came out in a Mainline box . That then got passed to Dapol and then Dapol sold the tooling to Hornby , who latterly updated it to loco drive .  The same pedigree as the 4F with the exception that the 4F actually appeared as an airfix model

[midlands]

3 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

The 2P was introduced by Mainline just before they ceased, it never featured in any list of locos Airfix were going to produce.

I would very much like the Hornby part number as I wish to try and find a loco powered version..yours looks great despite the dome..at least the dome is in the right place, and the boiler has correct number of bands unlike the triang 2p I have.

[DCB]

55 minutes ago, Rowsley17D said:

Hi Midlands

 

The latest Hornby 2P is loco -driven and picks up off all wheels including the tender wheels except the tyred drivers. The dome slopes too much, it's not chunky enough. One day I'll do some butchery and take it off for a brass one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Great Pics.  Going off topic a bit.  Is the turntable home made? It looks great, just what a lot of layouts need a fifty foot ish turntable.

[melmerby]

43 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

The 2P was introduced by Mainline just before they ceased, it never featured in any list of locos Airfix were going to produce.

Definitely Airfix as if it was a Mainline production it would have featured a split chassis loco drive, also it would have ended up with Bachmann not Hornby.

Airfix were into tender drives, Mainline weren't.

[midlands]

7 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Definitely Airfix as if it was a Mainline production it would have featured a split chassis loco drive, also it would have ended up with Bachmann not Hornby.

Airfix were into tender drives, Mainline weren't.

well, there we have it because Rowsley17D's loco has the motor in the loco.

 

On the other hand I have found no mainline ones up for sale, but I have found a loco driven version by Dapol....who are ....airfix/Dapol/kitmaster.....it's a job to keep up with all insider trading going on....tooling changing hands so much.

[Butler Henderson]

13 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Definitely Airfix as if it was a Mainline production it would have featured a split chassis loco drive, also it would have ended up with Bachmann not Hornby.

Airfix were into tender drives, Mainline weren't.

Palitoy commissioned Kader to make its Mainline models. When Palitoy acquired Airfix  they gained access to non Kader models and continued their production separate to the models being made for them by Kader, Airfix had planned a 4P Compound as their LMS 4-4-0 but dropped it when Hornby announced their MR Compound in 1980. Maybe some tentative work was started on a 2P instead but Airfix collapsed in the middle of 1980 and it was four years later the 2P appeared from Mainline.

[Butler Henderson]

11 minutes ago, midlands said:

On the other hand I have found no mainline ones up for sale, but I have found a loco driven version by Dapol....who are ....airfix/Dapol/kitmaster.....it's a job to keep up with all insider trading going on....tooling changing hands so much.

There were no loco driven 2Ps made by Dapol - the model was tender driven from its introduction by Mainline using the existing Airfix 4F tender drive until Hornby changed it to loco drive in 2011.

[Compound2632]

I think the 2P and 4F share the same rather disappointing tender - I have three 4Fs bought at various times over the past 40 years but never for more than £20, plus one 2P, second hand - all the tender drive version. 

 

The 4F, which represents the LH drive version of the LMS Standard version, is now rather outclassed by the Bachmann Midland 4F.

Edited March 5, 2020 by Compound2632

[midlands]

well actually, the model is described as a d-17 2p 4-4-0 made by Dapol. It may be vendor doesnt know the difference?

 

heres the link to the advert....it deffo looks loco drive'ish.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dapol-D-17-2P-loco-and-tender-in-LMS-Maroon/133344072668?hash=item1f0bed13dc:g:fyoAAOSwce1eRtZj

 

[midlands]

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I think the 2P and 4F share the same rather disappointing tender - I have three 4Fs bought at various times over the past 40 years but never for more than £20, plus one 2P, second hand - all the tender drive version. 

 

yes, i have noticed a certain ammount of generalisation amongst the tooling for tenders around the 2p-4p-4f  tenders. I expect that one of the specialists have produced more meaty fair for lms tender hearted.

[melmerby]

18 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

Palitoy commissioned Kader to make its Mainline models. When Palitoy acquired Airfix  they gained access to non Kader models and continued their production separate to the models being made for them by Kader, Airfix had planned a 4P Compound as their LMS 4-4-0 but dropped it when Hornby announced their MR Compound in 1980. Maybe some tentative work was started on a 2P instead but Airfix collapsed in the middle of 1980 and it was four years later the 2P appeared from Mainline.

If it was a pure Mainline, it would have had tools owned by Kader as with the rest of the Mainline range. (apart from one or two wagons where Palitoy/Mainline owned duplicates)

Then it would have been used for Kader owned Bachmann. The Airfix tools were owned by Airfix, then Palitoy and they ended it up at Hornby via Dapol.

[midlands]

what is the point in putting up a photo of end of the box if the label is completely blank?. I guess I haven't been around the bay long enough to read the signs in the sky!

[Butler Henderson]

 

Just now, midlands said:

well actually, the model is described as a d-17 2p 4-4-0 made by Dapol. It may be vendor doesnt know the difference?

D17 was a Da;pol model and tender driven - it is actually fictitious as no LMS built 2Ps ran in crimson being introduced in 1928 after the 1927 livery change

6 minutes ago, melmerby said:

If it was a pure Mainline, it would have had tools owned by Kader as with the rest of the Mainline range.

Rubbish, Palitoy had acquired the Airfix toolings and continued their development and expansion

[Rowsley17D]

2 hours ago, midlands said:

I would very much like the Hornby part number as I wish to try and find a loco powered version..yours looks great despite the dome..at least the dome is in the right place, and the boiler has correct number of bands unlike the triang 2p I have.

 

The Hornby number is R3315. This is actually a BR liveried one as they didn't do an LMS one at the time. I stripped off the BR markings and put LMS ones on.

 

The 50' turntable is a Cowans-Sheldon London Road Models kit built by me. I got their the slow running motor to make it turn and used a spare decoder to drive it. On speed step one it can be positioned to line up with the tracks. It's near the baseboard edge which make lining up easy.

[midlands]

27 minutes ago, Rowsley17D said:

The Hornby number is R3315. This is actually a BR liveried one as they didn't do an LMS one at the time. I stripped off the BR markings and put LMS ones on.

Cheers Rowsley17D, gives me a fair chance at finding one. mine will get a repaint also as not a fan of the red livery on loco stock.

 

Love that turntable too, your loco just fits on.......perfect!

[Legend]

2 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

 

D17 was a Da;pol model and tender driven - it is actually fictitious as no LMS built 2Ps ran in crimson being introduced in 1928 after the 1927 livery change

Rubbish, Palitoy had acquired the Airfix toolings and continued their development and expansion

They acquired the tooling including the 2P which is pure Airfix .  I will consult catalogues when home but I’m sure you find a picture of it in an Airfix catalogue along with the Schools class and Bulleid coaches Airfix proposed . While this may have appeared in a Mainline box it was pure Airfix . No split chassis , an Airfix tender drive instead.  The Deans goods and N2 were also Airfix released by Mainline

[midlands]

1 hour ago, Rowsley17D said:

The Hornby number is R3315. This is actually a BR liveried one as they didn't do an LMS one at the time. I stripped off the BR markings and put LMS ones on.

Found one place I can order from....no wonder I couldn't find it, it's part or Hornbys new so called less expensive range Raiload, this one loco powered, yay, and considering it's in the childrens toy dept, it's still very very detailed and i'm gonna love it!

 

oh, and this is definately 4p not a 2p in disguise;

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/railroad-lms-4-4-0-compound-with-fowler-tender.html

 

edited to add info and link.

Edited March 5, 2020 by midlands
edited to add info and link.

[Butler Henderson]

 

27 minutes ago, Legend said:

They acquired the tooling including the 2P which is pure Airfix .  I will consult catalogues when home but I’m sure you find a picture of it in an Airfix catalogue along with the Schools class and Bulleid coaches Airfix proposed . While this may have appeared in a Mainline box it was pure Airfix . No split chassis , an Airfix tender drive instead.  The Deans goods and N2 were also Airfix released by Mainline

How could there be a tooling for a 2P by Airfix when until around 6 months before they went bust they were going to do a 4P? Look at what Mainline released in the 1980s and that which came from Kader was in some cases (the 03 in particular) noticeably delayed in its release (so Bachmanns woes are nothing new). Presumably the contract with Kader was for a fixed period, it would have been self evident to Palitoy that they should look for alternative sources if the contract was say for 10 years and doing the 2P was pretty much a no brainer as it could make use of the 4Fs tender.

 This is what Airfix displayed at the 1980 British Toy Fair

 

[Butler Henderson]

And this was the commentary on Airfix in the April 1981 issue of Model Trains

Airfix

At the time of writing Airfix was in receivership though continuing to trade. We gather the N2 is now delayed until further notice,

with the Dean Goods due to be released shortly afterwards. Early samples were running and this beautifully detailed model

will be really worth the wait—the cab detail is superb. But these forecasts could change.

Also noted are more of the old lineside and accessory kits now in the GMR range. The LMS Compound and the 'Schools' have

been abandoned, we gather, due to the Hornby models.