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Southeastern Finecast E1 & E2 in EM gauge


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Many years ago I bought an unboxed partially built Southeastern Finecast LBSCR/SR E1 loco with a view to finishing it, several years later I bought two SEF E1 chassis one built to 00 gauge and not working, the second started but having rather mangled axle holes again to 00 gauge. Also in the distant past I bought a Wills E1 with a cast whitemetal chassis with a MW/Airfix MRRC 005 5 pole motor, built well but with no cab detail painted in Urie sage green with LBSCR letters in white!!!

 

3.jpeg.1e305b5d62af79c555a87cbd29410708.jpeg

 

The body was reasonably well built, but had been superglued together and the chassis fixing nut had become unstuck, Came with instructions and it looks like all the bits are there.  I just never got round to building it

 

Last Autumn I bought a coreless motor from Chris at High Level and recently I got into a discussion about re-building an E4 chassis from EM to 00 gauge (another member bought a loco on Ebay and found it was not to 00 gauge) I phoned Chris about a gearbox and he asked about why I had not tried out the motor. Out came my chassis jig and the chassis was built to its base form (no brake gear) as it was to be a test bed for the motor

 

1.jpeg.8fd5c041dd44329efea1a63a2bbbb440.jpeg

 

I fitted some old Romford 18mm wheels and got a rolling chassis

 

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Being to EM gauge, I could only use the centre spacer from the kit and fitted a Comet spacer front and rear. Next up for the chassis was a trip to the paint shop

 

5.jpeg.6b5c968e649807b9d97c9201996b1387.jpeg6.jpeg.3846c5806a8bd4d8b9680c0928983526.jpeg7.jpeg.890bb85000885dcb4fb6ec2e4341f71c.jpeg Whilst waiting for the paint to dry I built a High Level Road Runner gearbox and fitted the motor, both worked together very well

Edited by hayfield
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Hi John,

 

I've just started to use High Level gearboxes and very impressed so far. I'm interested in the motor too, is this one of Chris's new motors? Would welcome some feedback on this set up. Good luck with the build, will follw with interest.

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

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I am a bit more advanced than the writeup. I am just starting to build my new layout as my previous layout was broken up owing to moving houses, at the moment I am limited to a temporary length of test track, plus only using an old H&M Safety Minor. I will set up a 6' run and use a  Compspeed which will be a better test for the motor

 

High Level gearboxes are my first choice, firstly as they seem to work straight off, plus have a very wide range of shapes and sizes (more later in the build

 

Initial test is its very good, the chassis still needs a little fettle, but it runs very smoothly using old school controllers. Certainly as good as the Mashima's, hopefully better and a massive improvement on a cheap Chinese motor I got off the internet

 

I intend to order one of Chris's cheap 3 pole 10 series motors, again just for comparison. 

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The chassis came out of the paint shop

8.jpeg.f86231f841d91b6279897f38c0192266.jpeg

 

After checking the axles still ran freely the motor was fitted, crankpin bushes fitted temporarily with Loctite and the chassis tested. There is a slight binding issue, it may be due to one piece jointed coupling rods, or the fact that the bushes are not very close to the coupling rods. Either way when I remove the wheels for painting I will use a spare set of coupling rods to beef then up and make them level 

 

9.jpeg.0ee1e22ad029604a2637dfde3af9eb10.jpeg

 

A simple wiper pickup on the centre and rear wheels were made, owing to the design of the mainframes front pickups will be from the top. Still the chassis works very well and just needs a slight tweak of the coupling rods.

 

One other issue also showed up. the rear of the motor was a few mm too close to the cab. I am using a High Level Road Runner gear box, I will swap it for a Road Runner + which has a drive stretcher  http://www.highlevelkits.co.uk/roadrunnerpage.html  I will fit it with the worm in front of the drive axle which will move the motor forward away from the cab but still within the tank area

 

4.jpeg.1a2fc38feabb65ddfd7d82eacf61ef28.jpeg

 

Now offering up the chassis to the body showed up lots of issues, it just would not fit. part of the problem was that the chassis had been widened to EM gauge, they are the older Romford wheels with larger flanges, the front wheels seem out of line with the chassis

3.jpeg.1e3c8e710219c45266a8a3226ccd3aad.jpeg

 

The body has been well made but superglued together, no option but take it apart to get the chassis to fit correctly. Tried my usual method of holding the body in the steam from the kettle, but this time nothing happened. Plan B off to the tool shop for superglue debonder

Edited by hayfield
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We have an independent tool shop in the village and a while back they got me on to using industrial grade superglue

10.jpeg.2c60bc08a8961fd285621b6cec0d116e.jpeg

 

I noticed this on the shelves a while back, so thought it was worth a go at £3.99 

 

11.jpeg.940f63005c0b6e18a37aa6b06a94590c.jpeg

 

It took a bit longer than 30 seconds for some of the parts to debond, sometimes two or three applications before the parts separated, as you can see even the large spigots came apart without damage. The only casualty was one valve. Its a but gooey until you wash/scrape away the glue, but well worth the effort.

 

As I said there were a few clearance issues including the front wheels on the chassis being out of register with the footplate. The easy solution was to shorten the etched chassis by 2 mm and put in a 60 thou spacer front and back, these will be revised once the body is soldered up nice and square. The problem with Romford wheels is their flanges being over size, the usual dodge is to use some 1 mm smaller, but as far as I know they don't do 17mm drivers. The other alternatives would be to use either Gibson or Markit wheels.

 

The other issue is the wider width of EM gauge wheels, a couple of areas between the front and centre wheels have been filed back.

 

Once I have soldered the tank top/boiler/smokebox casting in place to the body the footplate will have more rigidity, I can then alter the spaces between the body and chassis. The coupling rod tops may be a bit high, also I can file the underside of the footplate to give a bit more clearance, but this is fine tuning which can be done later 

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Looks an interesting challenge John and glad it all came apart nicely. Will you solder the body parts or use Epoxy? I prefer to solder but have used Epoxy when liklihood of damaging close proximity parts are high.

 

I have a couple of high level gearboxes as well so might use them in my next build project. Is the motor coreless?

 

Look forward to seeing it progress (even though its not an LMS loco)

 

Ian

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3 hours ago, hayfield said:

The chassis came out of the paint shop

8.jpeg.f86231f841d91b6279897f38c0192266.jpeg

 

After checking the axles still ran freely the motor was fitted, crankpin bushes fitted temporarily with Loctite and the chassis tested. There is a slight binding issue, it may be due to one piece jointed coupling rods, or the fact that the bushes are not very close to the coupling rods. Either way when I remove the wheels for painting I will use a spare set of coupling rods to beef then up and make them level 

 

9.jpeg.0ee1e22ad029604a2637dfde3af9eb10.jpeg

 

A simple wiper pickup on the centre and rear wheels were made, owing to the design of the mainframes front pickups will be from the top. Still the chassis works very well and just needs a slight tweak of the coupling rods.

 

One other issue also showed up. the rear of the motor was a few mm too close to the cab. I am using a High Level Road Runner gear box, I will swap it for a Road Runner + which has a drive stretcher  http://www.highlevelkits.co.uk/roadrunnerpage.html  I will fit it with the worm in front of the drive axle which will move the motor forward away from the cab but still within the tank area

 

4.jpeg.1a2fc38feabb65ddfd7d82eacf61ef28.jpeg

 

Now offering up the chassis to the body showed up lots of issues, it just would not fit. part of the problem was that the chassis had been widened to EM gauge, they are the older Romford wheels with larger flanges, the front wheels seem out of line with the chassis

3.jpeg.1e3c8e710219c45266a8a3226ccd3aad.jpeg

 

The body has been well made but superglued together, no option but take it apart to get the chassis to fit correctly. Tried my usual method of holding the body in the steam from the kettle, but this time nothing happened. Plan B off to the tool shop for superglue debonder

Can I suggest adding another stretcher between the leading and middle axles? The amount the frames are flexing will have a detrimental effect on the wheelbase and running quality. 

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Ian

 

Thanks for the comments

 

Yes I am soldering all the main parts with 70 degree solder, My family bought me a 80 watt digital solder station for my birthday, for whitemetal I followed the advice from others on here and set the temperature at 300 degrees. I will not use epoxy but for the small stuff I will use industrial superglue. In the past I used an Antex 25 watt iron without any issues

 

The motor is coreless and seems to be very good, but as I said in another thread I will also tru the 3 pole 10 series which is only £9.

 

Still have flatirons on 00 & 0 gauge to build

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4 minutes ago, Denbridge said:

Can I suggest adding another stretcher between the leading and middle axles? The amount the frames are flexing will have a detrimental effect on the wheelbase and running quality. 

 

Denbridge

 

Thanks for the suggestion, I see now looking back at the instructions that the motor mount (which I am not using) acts as a central spacer. As I am changing the gearbox which will fill that space I will fit one the other side of the center wheel, which is where the motor mount would have been anyway. Also will have the benefit as a place where I can attach the motor to with a bit of blu tac 

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16 minutes ago, Denbridge said:

My memory of that chassis suggests at least 4 stretchers. I'll have to dig my E1 out.

 

According to the instructions I have, there are two etched spacers which includes the motor mount, both between the middle and rear axles and one round spacer in front of the front driver, no spacers at the rear

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The rebuild can start now everything is cleaned up

 

 

 

12.jpeg.0bace70069caf4f69feb24b735a1a33e.jpeg

 

I followed the instructions and fit the first few parts so I can offer up the chassis.

 

13.jpeg.b6a8065b0347e314b76198e940d53c67.jpeg

 

I found that the front wheels failed to align with the space for them on the footplate, the easiest solution was to shorten the chassis by 2 mm, also I needed to fit 60 thou spacers front and back to stop the coupling rods knocking against the footplate at the top of their rotation. I will remedy this issue as much as I can once the footplate is soldered up straight and is fully supported and when the crankpin bushes have been soldered in place

 

I decided before going further to completely read the instructions including the livery instructions. It stated with EM gauge its a bit of a tight squeeze, think I am nearly there with the exception of making some curved indentations above the crankpins on the under side of the whitemetal footplate

 

My earlier comment on the olive green livery was wrong, as this was a goods colour, though I think the loco would have carried its name rather than the companies initials, I still can not get my head around the passenger livery and lining for the LBSCR, but as it will be SR green I am not too worried.

 

On the coupling rod front, I have a spare E4 etch which will supply what is needed. I also have a book on Stroudley locos which describes some of the alterations carried out over the years, to a certain extent I am limited by what was done before in the first build.

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5 hours ago, hayfield said:

I found that the front wheels failed to align with the space for them on the footplate, the easiest solution was to shorten the chassis by 2 mm, also I needed to fit 60 thou spacers front and back to stop the coupling rods knocking against the footplate at the top of their rotation. I will remedy this issue as much as I can once the footplate is soldered up straight and is fully supported and when the crankpin bushes have been soldered in place

I have E tanks by both Albion and SEFinecast (actually probably by Wills!). 

Bordeaux has the etched chassis and Jersey has a cast chassis. Neither look as though there has been any realignment of the front axle location, so it might be worth doing a little head-scratching before cutting lumps out of the chassis!

I model to EM and can confirm that there needs to be some judicious filing on the underside of the footplate to allow clearance for the crankpins.

Bordeaux.JPG.b17790854d13400a16b08a986dfbc079.JPG

If it would be helpful, I can take a photo or two of the chassis and underside of the body.

Bordeaux is in Stroudley goods livery - very dark green with red and black lining to indicate that it is Westinghouse fitted. Best wishes

Eric

PS Don't forget that the tops of the side tanks are not flush with the curves on the top of the sides. There should be a slight step where the side sheeting laps up over the tops. I have seen people expending a lot of profanity in order to get this feature perfectly wrong!  

 

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Eric

 

A lovely loco and looks to have been very well built and painted, and thanks for the info. With the 2 chassis I have there are no wooden brake shoes on the etch.

 

As far as livery goes I will paint one of the Southern greens, my lining skills are not up to complicated livery

 

Out of interest where do the loco names come from please, they are rather splendid

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6 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

I found that the front wheels failed to align with the space for them on the footplate, the easiest solution was to shorten the chassis by 2 mm, also I needed to fit 60 thou spacers front and back to stop the coupling rods knocking against the footplate at the top of their rotation. I will remedy this issue as much as I can once the footplate is soldered up straight and is fully supported and when the crankpin bushes have been soldered in place

 

The alignment issue is probably because the body was originally designed to fit on an old Hornby Dublo or Wrenn chassis, with a slightly incorrect wheelbase.  I guess the newer etched chassis has the correct dimensions.  The easiest thing to do is file away the whitemetal footplate until the wheels are clear.  I see the front splashers are a separate part, so again its easy to fit them in the correct position to match the wheels.

Likewise, you can file or scrape away the whitemetal where the crankpin bushes hit it.  This is nearly always needed with a whitemetal footplate.  This photo shows a Finecast 02, with a replacement footplate, but the principle is the same.  On the far left you can see a half-moon shape filed out of the footplate, to clear the crankpin bush.

662446577_IMG_8512small.jpg.67d8d9648c1d8bbe56c2037a45e746fc.jpg

 

Hope this helps,  Cheers, Dave.

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23 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

According to the instructions I have, there are two etched spacers which includes the motor mount, both between the middle and rear axles and one round spacer in front of the front driver, no spacers at the rear

 

I expect that motor mount will be for a DS10 (or similar)  motor, and Romford gears.  It won't be much use when you are fitting a Highlevel gearbox.  However the spacers can be adapted to fit elsewhere in the chassis.

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On 05/03/2020 at 11:11, hayfield said:

 

After checking the axles still ran freely the motor was fitted, crankpin bushes fitted temporarily with Loctite and the chassis tested. There is a slight binding issue, it may be due to one piece jointed coupling rods, or the fact that the bushes are not very close to the coupling rods. Either way when I remove the wheels for painting I will use a spare set of coupling rods to beef then up and make them level 

 

I have found this as well.  I soldered the rods together to make single rigid rods.  You really only need jointed rods if you are including some form of compensation or suspension.  When I built the E1/R version many moons ago, I replaced the rods with the Alan Gibson product, giving a much finer appearance.

1916708126_IMG_8212small.jpg.d3c713fe65f6861c35a15262b0de7b01.jpg

 

Sorry to hi-jack your thread!

All the best, Dave.

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2 hours ago, burgundy said:

PS Don't forget that the tops of the side tanks are not flush with the curves on the top of the sides. There should be a slight step where the side sheeting laps up over the tops. I have seen people expending a lot of profanity in order to get this feature perfectly wrong!  

The patterns for the kit were made with the correct recess in the tank tops.

Unfortunately  this was deemed to be a mistake and they were altered before the kit was released !

I'm not sure how this was achieved but it should be possible to reduce the thickness of the tank tops to represent this feature.  The recess should be about 1/2'' to 3/4'' or 10 thou in 4mm.

Rodney

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1 hour ago, DLT said:

The alignment issue is probably because the body was originally designed to fit on an old Hornby Dublo or Wrenn chassis, with a slightly incorrect wheelbase.  I guess the newer etched chassis has the correct dimensions. 

The original patterns must be around 50 years old, but I am pretty sure that they always had a dedicated chassis - including the separate option for the D tank. Jersey, which is one of my oldest locos has a massive cast chassis, while Bordeaux has the etched version. And I am not sure how it was done, but Bordeaux does have a slight recess on the top of the tanks.   

Best wishes 

Eric

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14 hours ago, DLT said:

 

The alignment issue is probably because the body was originally designed to fit on an old Hornby Dublo or Wrenn chassis, with a slightly incorrect wheelbase.  I guess the newer etched chassis has the correct dimensions.  The easiest thing to do is file away the whitemetal footplate until the wheels are clear.  I see the front splashers are a separate part, so again its easy to fit them in the correct position to match the wheels.

Likewise, you can file or scrape away the whitemetal where the crankpin bushes hit it.  This is nearly always needed with a whitemetal footplate.  This photo shows a Finecast 02, with a replacement footplate, but the principle is the same.  On the far left you can see a half-moon shape filed out of the footplate, to clear the crankpin bush.

662446577_IMG_8512small.jpg.67d8d9648c1d8bbe56c2037a45e746fc.jpg

 

Hope this helps,  Cheers, Dave.

 

Dave as usual thanks very much for the advice and clear examples, this is what I intended to do

 

14 hours ago, DLT said:

 

I expect that motor mount will be for a DS10 (or similar)  motor, and Romford gears.  It won't be much use when you are fitting a Highlevel gearbox.  However the spacers can be adapted to fit elsewhere in the chassis.

 

The SEF motor mount as you say is no good either for a High Level gearbox or EM gauge in this kit as there unlike some newer chassis kits there are no EM

14 hours ago, DLT said:

 

I have found this as well.  I soldered the rods together to make single rigid rods.  You really only need jointed rods if you are including some form of compensation or suspension.  When I built the E1/R version many moons ago, I replaced the rods with the Alan Gibson product, giving a much finer appearance.

1916708126_IMG_8212small.jpg.d3c713fe65f6861c35a15262b0de7b01.jpg

 

Sorry to hi-jack your thread!

All the best, Dave.

 

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14 hours ago, DLT said:

 

The alignment issue is probably because the body was originally designed to fit on an old Hornby Dublo or Wrenn chassis, with a slightly incorrect wheelbase.  I guess the newer etched chassis has the correct dimensions.  The easiest thing to do is file away the whitemetal footplate until the wheels are clear.  I see the front splashers are a separate part, so again its easy to fit them in the correct position to match the wheels.

Likewise, you can file or scrape away the whitemetal where the crankpin bushes hit it.  This is nearly always needed with a whitemetal footplate.  This photo shows a Finecast 02, with a replacement footplate, but the principle is the same.  On the far left you can see a half-moon shape filed out of the footplate, to clear the crankpin bush.

662446577_IMG_8512small.jpg.67d8d9648c1d8bbe56c2037a45e746fc.jpg

 

Hope this helps,  Cheers, Dave.

 

Dave, thanks for both the advice and clear photos, this is what I intend to do

 

14 hours ago, DLT said:

 

I expect that motor mount will be for a DS10 (or similar)  motor, and Romford gears.  It won't be much use when you are fitting a Highlevel gearbox.  However the spacers can be adapted to fit elsewhere in the chassis.

 

The motor mount is no good for two reasons as you say I am using a High Level Motor Mount, secondli its for 00 gauge and unlike newer SEF chassis there are no EM/P4 equivelants

 

14 hours ago, DLT said:

 

I have found this as well.  I soldered the rods together to make single rigid rods.  You really only need jointed rods if you are including some form of compensation or suspension.  When I built the E1/R version many moons ago, I replaced the rods with the Alan Gibson product, giving a much finer appearance.

1916708126_IMG_8212small.jpg.d3c713fe65f6861c35a15262b0de7b01.jpg

 

Sorry to hi-jack your thread!

All the best, Dave.

 

 

I have about 7 old Weald Models E4 etches, I was going to beef up the SEF ones with them, however I guess as I still have the chassis settings on my chassis building jig I might have a go at trying to make a set of rigid ones. I have also noticed that the oil box lids on the top of the coupling rods are a lot smaller than the height I left then on the SEF rods, I did think I may have left them a bit long

1771704914_14(2).jpeg.c453546d9e95789986a05149a53fad2e.jpeg

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On 05/03/2020 at 15:27, hayfield said:

 

 

Yes I am soldering all the main parts with 70 degree solder, My family bought me a 80 watt digital solder station for my birthday, for whitemetal I followed the advice from others on here and set the temperature at 300 degrees. I will not use epoxy but for the small stuff I will use industrial superglue. In the past I used an Antex 25 watt iron without any issues

 

 

Which is interesting as my starting point is always to set the bit temperature to 100° above the melting point of the solder so 170° for low melting point solder. I might increase this slightly when soldering large blocks of white metal together (but first I try using a larger size bit if possible) and I would certainly decrease it, perhaps as low as 120°, if soldering a small item.

 

One important issue is that when soldering white metal to tinned brass using 70° MP solder, it is essential to avoid melting the solder that was used to pre-tin the brass as the resulting amalgam is cr*p. In such cases I now always pre-tin the brass using a high MP solder (and keeping the bit temperature well below that MP) which avoids the problem.

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becasse

 

Thanks for the tip and information, I do find the Solder station and its soldering iron easier to use and I feel safer,  than using my old Antex 25 watt iron. And for larger items I seem to be able to control the solder a lot better. Agreed care must be taken on medium and small items

 

I see from the write up in the Carrs info if using 100 degree solder no tinning is required, I still feel happier to tin brass and use lower temperature solder

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Going completely off topic, I must own up to having 4 Wills Schools locos in various states of built/part built I have picked up over the years, two have old Wills cast chassis, another has a strange amalgamation of a cast block and Airfix plastic mainframes. Anyway one is beautifully built in primer, the others need taking back to parts. I also have 1 Craftsman and 2 Comet chassis waiting to be built. All requiring wheels, motor and gears 

 

I noticed a Schools chassis described as "finescale" on eBay. Clearly a Comet chassis with a Mashima motor. I thought parts for one of my EM chassis, including postage it cost me £27.72 It arrived today 

 

Comet Schools chassis, Comet GB1 gearbox, Mashima 1420 motor and a full set of Markit RP25 wheels, axles and crankpins MRRP £117.34

 

All I need is a set of EM axles (£3.24) and I have all the parts for one loco, no doubt if I put the chassis up on our favourite site (less components but with the correct detailed description) someone will be happy to make a decent offer for it ready built.

 

Nice start to the weekend, especially as I have volunteered to go into work as we have got a massive delivery coming in and very short staffed (rather be home though)

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