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Ivatts, British Railways, and Liveries


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Guest WM183

Hi all.

 

I've acquired a trio of 4mm locomotives for our 4mm early BR(M) layout. I am planning on a date of 1953 or so, + or - a year. We have so far a Jinty, an Ivatt tank, and an Ivatt 4mt mogul. The Jinty is decorated in the early BR "dartboard" scheme - no trouble there. The Ivatt tank is in the late BR lined livery, so I will be redecorating it to the early BR logo. Would Ivatt tanks have been lined red with the early logo in my timeline? Also, my 4mt has the dual chimney, which I know was changed fairly quickly, and is also decorated as LMS for just now. I debated simply changing the tender lettering to the early sans serif "British Railways" logo. Would this loco still be running in that livery (and with the dual chimney) in 1953ish? Or should I sell this one and get a single stack one, or perhaps something like a Crab or a Fowler 4f?

Also, how quickly would wagons be painted into the new BR liveries? I imagine most of the large logo wagons would be gone or repainted by now, but would the late 30s and 40s small lettering wagons still be the majority? Or would the bulk of them now be in BR livery, labelled M, E, W, and so on? Any idea of a rough ratio? 

Thanks much!

Amanda

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1953's only five years after nationalisation so many, many wagons, many coaches and quite a few locomotives would have retained earlier liveries. A number of locos would, indeed, have the full 'BRITISH AIRWAYS' inscription.  Few wagons would have retained pre'36 liveries though ............... and one variant you don't mention is former PO wagons - mainly 12-tonners by then - with 'P' prefix numbers. Livery-wise it's a complex period ........ and very fascinating !

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Guest WM183

Thanks much! Yes, I imagine many PO wagons would be repainted, as they were the first real issue to get repaired following the war and general PO neglect, I believe? I will have my share of 7 and 8 plank wagons with P prefix numbers, and some few PO ones around in their (now fading and beaten) original liveries. 

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The better 12T '1923 standard' PO wagons ( and select others ) were allocated 'P' numbers and most received them on their original liveries .... a few would have received BR grey - but not many as they all had limited lives. Anything of less than 12T had even shorter lives under BR and were quickly replaced by thousands of 16T steel wagons : the earliest of which actually pre-dated nationalisation and were probably carrying LMS, NE or 'Ministry' liveries in '53.

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1 hour ago, WM183 said:

Thanks much! Yes, I imagine many PO wagons would be repainted, as they were the first real issue to get repaired following the war and general PO neglect, I believe? I will have my share of 7 and 8 plank wagons with P prefix numbers, and some few PO ones around in their (now fading and beaten) original liveries. 

 

Rather the contrary, they were bottom of the pecking order. Most would be as you describe in your last sentence: faded remains of pre-war liveries, unpainted wood replacement planks, etc. - the only fresh paint being the black P number panel. But they would have been vastly plentiful - BR inherited over half a million and the replacement 16 ton all-steel wagons didn't really start replacing them in quantity until later in the 50s.

 

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Guest WM183

Oh, that's good information to have.  Thanks much! So most po coal wagons will have remnants of original livery and the new BR number in a patch, alongside LMS and LNER 7 plank minerals and some new 16t wagons of LMS, LNER, and BR design? I like variety so thats pretty great.

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There was an 'Ideal Wagons Committee' set up very shortly after nationalisation; this sounds like the worst sort of inefficient nationalisation talking shop but was actually very effective at dealing with the dire wagon situation.  It's remit was to improve the quality of the stock as quickly and cheaply as possible and advise on design for new standard wagon types.  BR did not even know how many XPO 7-plank minerals it owned, except that it was about half a million, mostly in parlous state.  IWC initiated a cull of the worst examples, and less unacceptable ones were given P numbers.  Initially, these were applied over filthy previous liveries, and repairs to planking were not painted or varnished to save money and because paint and varnish were still in short supply in the austerity economy.  New build unfitted 5, 3, and 1 plank general merchandise wagons to big 4 designs which were still in production until about 1952 were initially put into service unpainted in bare wood.

 

As paint became available, the grey livery was applied to new wagons and overhauled XPOs, but the whole fleet of XPOs were never fully dealt with.  The LMS 16ton all steel mineral was adopted very quickly as a standard and went into volume production; loss of traffic and closure of mines over the next decade or so hastened the replacement of wooden XPOs with new steel wagons, but there were still some XPOs around in the early 60s.

 

The IWC also oversaw the upgrading of general merchandise wagons and vans with vacuum brakes and disc wheels; by about 1955 the general merchandise fleet was in pretty good order and unfitted wagons were becoming less common.  

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Ivatt 2MT would have full mixed traffic lining at that date, the 4MTs were mostly unlined while they had double chimneys which as you say disappeared fairly early. After that they had full mixed traffic lining.

Most early BR layouts have nowhere near enough ex PO coal wagons in degraded livery - including my own although efforts are under way to correct this. As stated above they just had black patches with a P number and weight information - as far as I know these numbers were allocated more or less at random.

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The last Ivatt 4 with a double chimney was late 57/early 58 (I can't remember which off the top of my head - but it is certainly well after 1953) - source, Irwell Press 'Book of the Ivatt 4s'.

 

Edited to add that I can't find my reference for one that late, but quite a few made it to 1955 & 1956.

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20 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

........  these numbers were allocated more or less at random.

Yes and No ............... blocks of numbers were allocated to each workshop that might receive the occasional wagon ( Railway works, Wagon Repairs etc ) but the numbers were then applied to whatever wagons appeared in random sequence : one of Dave Larkin's recent volumes give mind-numbing detail of inherited steel-bodied wagons !

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3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Rather the contrary, they were bottom of the pecking order. Most would be as you describe in your last sentence: faded remains of pre-war liveries, unpainted wood replacement planks, etc. - the only fresh paint being the black P number panel. But they would have been vastly plentiful - BR inherited over half a million and the replacement 16 ton all-steel wagons didn't really start replacing them in quantity until later in the 50s.

 

Correct. It was 1959 when painting of wooden bodied open wagons with wooden frames was permitted - BTC were annoyed by how awful the wagon fleet looked. Steel framed ex Private trader wagons were relatively rare and they could be repainted - but possibly not in 1953.

 

In 1953 I suspect that virtually all wagons would have had the M, E etc. prefixes added to the numbers even if not repainted. Not particularly neatly - although I also expect rather neater than the 1980s period when departmental wagons had an extra prefix added to show which engineer was responsible for them, that was done quickly but very crudely. There would have been a lot more professional signwriters available in 1953.

Wagon repair was very delayed in the early nationalisation period and the minimum was done to get wagons moving again - there was a severe shortage of wagons.

 

Paul

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At the same time as major blockages of siding capacity with cripples.  Between about 1950 and the early 60s it was common to see condemned wagons stored in derelict yards all over the place.  Bodies were sold off (vans) or burned (wooden opens), and frames eventually cut for scrap. 

 

 

 

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I understand that closed but not lifted branch lines were used for wagon storage - the Whitacre-Hampton section of the original Birmingham & Derby Junction Railway being so used after the bridges over the River Blythe were condemned. 

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15 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I understand that closed but not lifted branch lines were used for wagon storage - the Whitacre-Hampton section of the original Birmingham & Derby Junction Railway being so used after the bridges over the River Blythe were condemned. 

 

At the time that BR closed the MR Leicester (Wigston) to Rugby line, they were withdrawing wooden-bodied mineral wagons faster than they could dispose of them.

 

The line from Wigston to Rugby became an almost continuous row of stored wagons.

 

John Isherwood.

Edited by cctransuk
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7 hours ago, WM183 said:

Hi all.

 

I've acquired a trio of 4mm locomotives for our 4mm early BR(M) layout. I am planning on a date of 1953 or so, + or - a year. We have so far a Jinty, an Ivatt tank, and an Ivatt 4mt mogul. The Jinty is decorated in the early BR "dartboard" scheme - no trouble there. The Ivatt tank is in the late BR lined livery, so I will be redecorating it to the early BR logo. Would Ivatt tanks have been lined red with the early logo in my timeline? Also, my 4mt has the dual chimney, which I know was changed fairly quickly, and is also decorated as LMS for just now. I debated simply changing the tender lettering to the early sans serif "British Railways" logo. Would this loco still be running in that livery (and with the dual chimney) in 1953ish? Or should I sell this one and get a single stack one, or perhaps something like a Crab or a Fowler 4f?

Also, how quickly would wagons be painted into the new BR liveries? I imagine most of the large logo wagons would be gone or repainted by now, but would the late 30s and 40s small lettering wagons still be the majority? Or would the bulk of them now be in BR livery, labelled M, E, W, and so on? Any idea of a rough ratio? 

Thanks much!

Amanda

The mixed traffic lining of grey/cream/black/red was introduced in 1948. Ivatt 4MT's lost their double chimneys 1953-6, only the first 3 (3000 - 2 ) had LMS livery, 43003 - 20 had BRITISH RAILWAYS in 8inch figures, 43021 - 35 in 6 inch, from then on it was the early emblem, but as locos went thro' shops after June 1949 they probably had the early emblem attached, so most would've been done by '53..

 

Edited by bike2steam
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1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

LNWR Leicester (Wigston) to Rugby line,

 

Midland! (The southern section of the Midland Counties Railway.)

11 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

Not just that, most of the ones you see for sale are all sorts of exotic liveries - much harder to find all the ordinary colliery ones.

 

Although, if you're trying to get to grips with POWSides rub-down transfers, failures don't matter.

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Guest WM183

Thanks so much for all the replies! This has been a lot of help!

So my Ivatt mogul can keep its double chimney and get the 8'' British Railways lettering and a number in the 43003 - 20 block. I have transfers on the way from HMRS, so will change that one about.

 

Also, I will be sure to keep my PO wagons in their cruddy, beat up liveries, and just add some P numbers. It seems like some truly decrepit old smaller PO wagons might be useful as scenery to occupy weedy, rusty spurs and sidings!

 

 

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13 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

Not just that, most of the ones you see for sale are all sorts of exotic liveries - much harder to find all the ordinary colliery ones.

Yep - all sorts of exotic liveries that would be appropriate on eight- or ten-ton wagons in the 1920s .... but applied to RCH standard 12T bodies ( often as not, stretched to fit a 17'6'' chassis ).

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Guest WM183

Hi folks. One more question?

 

I've bought a Comet D1905 Stanier corridor brake third from ebay. My first brass coach! My Ivatt tank would be right at home with a BTK/CK/BTK set with a pair of these and a corridor composite, yes? Would having them a bit mismatched, say, one or two still in the LMS crimson, and one in blood and custard, be appropriate?

Thanks again!

Amanda

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4 minutes ago, WM183 said:

Hi folks. One more question?

 

I've bought a Comet D1905 Stanier corridor brake third from ebay. My first brass coach! My Ivatt tank would be right at home with a BTK/CK/BTK set with a pair of these and a corridor composite, yes? Would having them a bit mismatched, say, one or two still in the LMS crimson, and one in blood and custard, be appropriate?

Thanks again!

Amanda

At your date in the early 1950s trains on secondary services still had a fair mix of period 1 and 2 coaches as well as some Staniers. I spotted a coach still in LMS livery but the crest painted out on a BTF film produced in 1954.

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