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Is it okay to run locos that had traction tyres without traction tyres?


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If a loco had traction tyres and you take them off, most have a little flange (?) where the traction tyre fitted.

 

Is it okay to simply take the tyre off and run the loco?

 

The track fits into the little groove so seems to be okay but not sure if it'll damage the loco or track in the long run?

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Also it can cause derailment at points, I tried it on a friends layout with a Hornby 0-6-0 and although it ran along straight track it would jump at the frog of most points sometimes derailing but not always, it then ran on the top of the rails and derailed at the next curve rail so not very successful. I think that you need to get new traction tyres if they are available, there’s a tread on here about Bullfrog snot but I have not seen any of the reply yet.

 

regards mike 

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I think warnings of dire consequences and danger are a bit much, it's unlikely to cause any kind of damage, but it will likely not run right - as @mikeg says, the groove in the wheel can act like an outside flange. Depending how deep the groove, it will either just bump over or derail. 

 

Try Peter's Spares on ebay or their website for must types of new tyres.

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As long as your track is laid smooth and level, especially at turnouts, the loco will run perfectly, and you will find that pickup, slow running, and track cleanliness in general are much improved.  My view is that traction tyres are Satan’s expectorant, anf I remove them from any model I own that is thus polluted and replace the driving wheel.  Ballast packed into the loco’s body will restore any loss of pulling power. 

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2 hours ago, mikeg said:

Also it can cause derailment at points, I tried it on a friends layout with a Hornby 0-6-0 and although it ran along straight track it would jump at the frog of most points sometimes derailing but not always, it then ran on the top of the rails and derailed at the next curve rail so not very successful. I think that you need to get new traction tyres if they are available, there’s a tread on here about Bullfrog snot but I have not seen any of the reply yet.

 

regards mike 

Interesting typo, in view of the subject - tread/thread :)

 

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2 hours ago, AlexHolt said:

Depends which model it is. I've got an Airfix 14xx with missing traction tyres and the wheel they were on doesn't even touch the rails now.

Partial cure for loco drive steam locos get spare non grooved wheels, Either substitute them for grooved or if the balance weights etc are different, just pop the metal tyres off and fit the non groove instead of the grooved ones.  

Diesels are more awkward, I have run Lima diesels with the leading wheel traction tyres missing to stop them derailing in the garden, no real issues apart from severe wear to the grooves but the track is 75ft long end to end so I wouldn't notice rail wear.  Replacement  non groove wheels are difficult, most have solid non groove wheels and plastic centred grooved with drive gears so changing over is not an option.  If you have glass smooth track you could try ultrascale wheels but they won't stay on my code 100 track.

As far as possible we have tried to ban traction tyres with a major  effect on track cleaning, reducing it by 90%..

The Airfix 14XX  won't pull the skin off a ducks back, or whatever,  with traction tyres missing.  They occasionally snag in point work as well. Dapol/Hornby aren't much better.    I have actually tried re-profiling the grooved wheel tyres in the lathe to remove the grooves and putting the now smaller but large flange wheels on the leading axle, its a bit better but  now rocks on the middle axle. Probably needs a comet chassis but I have one and made a mess of building it. Plan B is a bespoke brass chassis.  But for now we have a Hattons 14XX for pulling trains.

Edited by DavidCBroad
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I have a couple of early Hornby class 50's that originally had the dreaded traction tyres fitted (quite why they were built with them I don't know as the locos are nice and heavy).

 

Anyway, I wanted rid of the tyres as they were spreading the usual muck over the rails.

 

I removed the offending wheels from their axles by resting them in a mini vice and carefully punched them out with light hammer and rod to enable replacement with non tyred wheels. Locos running perfectly since.

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If this is any use, I have a Hornby loco drive 2p which kept shedding its traction tyre on the left front driver, despite the fact that it was never run on anything less than 2nd radius curves which are supposed to be ok for it. Last year, I took both left and right side tyres off and ran the loco without. My layout is DCC and I have 22 points. Not once has it shorted out on any  of the points which are a mix of 30 year old Hornby, new insulfrog Peco and 30 year old Peco electrofrog. It did however tend to  buck slightly  over the old Hornby points, but so do some of the other locos.. This year I have added graphite to the track, mainly for the o-6-os on insulfrog points and the 2P struggles without the tyres on some of the curves when pulling 3 coaches or more.  So- the loco works well with small exceptions. If it were heavier, I doubt if it would slip at all.

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Need to be careful with graphite as it's also a lubricant and is probably why your loco now pulls less - though I understand that graphite can be an aid in better running in other circumstances. I suppose it's a case of win some - lose some.

 

For what it's worth, I wouldn't use tyres as The Johnster has pointed out above, it's the devil's own work meaning more rail cleansing and the tyres are prone to becoming flaccid and loose if any oil gets onto them. What the answer is I don't know - to do it properly I suppose it would be a question of wheel replacement, depending on how much the loco is liked and the cost v. value.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

Edited by Philou
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Wheel replacement is the way to go, Philou, but if you're not bothered by the appearance of a grooved driving wheel without it's tyre, or like me less bothered than you are by the presence of the tyre in the first place, then carrying regardless with simply a grooved wheel minus Satan's Snot is fine, so long as your turnouts are laid smooth and level.  My 2721 has been running happily without tyres for years, and pickup is vastly improved to it's 'tyred' state, as is the smoothness of slow running.

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6 hours ago, Philou said:

 

 

For what it's worth, I wouldn't use tyres as The Johnster has pointed out above, it's the devil's own work meaning more rail cleansing and the tyres are prone to becoming flaccid and loose if any oil gets onto them. What the answer is I don't know - to do it properly I suppose it would be a question of wheel replacement, depending on how much the loco is liked and the cost v. value.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

A lot of Hornby wheels have plastic centres and metal tyres.  I find I can press off the tyres without removing the wheels or altering the quartering and then I pull one coupling rod pin, slide the tyre off completely and change it for one from a spare wheel set.  Often the balance weight is different on the traction tyre wheel from the non traction tyre one, so its a better method in that respect as well.   As an aside Hornby Castle/ 10XX County wheel tyres fit Triang Hornby Hall/B12 wheels as an easy upgrade.  Usually you can get a set of 6 for about £5 on eBay

Edited by DavidCBroad
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15 hours ago, Philou said:

Need to be careful with graphite as it's also a lubricant and is probably why your loco now pulls less - though I understand that graphite can be an aid in better running in other circumstances. I suppose it's a case of win some - lose some.

 

For what it's worth, I wouldn't use tyres as The Johnster has pointed out above, it's the devil's own work meaning more rail cleansing and the tyres are prone to becoming flaccid and loose if any oil gets onto them. What the answer is I don't know - to do it properly I suppose it would be a question of wheel replacement, depending on how much the loco is liked and the cost v. value.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

  Hi, Philip,

  I agree about graphite. It's very slippery, but after having to clean the track before every session without the graphite, I haven't had to do it for months now with it. Swings and roundabouts.. I mentioned it to Sir Topham as a downside, for me at least, of running without traction tyres. Even so, I have an Airfix 4F, tender drive of course, which has 6 traction tyres on the tender but which slips badly in places with a moderate load. I think the trick is to try to confine it as far as possible to the points and then to remove it from the remainder of the track, particularly curves, from time to time.

Nigel

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There is much controversy about this on the US forum groups. General consensus is, don’t run without the tyres. 

 

I have a Lionel 4-4-2 which shed its single traction tyre, and I replaced it with a suitably sized rubber band. I don’t suppose it will achieve the same working life, but for a little-used loco, it’s good for now. 

 

 

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Track cleaning, along with wheel and pickup cleaning, is another issue.  Tyres spread crud around your railheads, as do plastic wheels, and I have found that the need for cleaning in general is hugely reduced by eliminating anything except metal wheels from all your stock.  Locos seem to be quite individualistic in this regard, with Bachmann giving the best performances, and a Hornby 2721 requiring cleaning nearly every time it's is used.  I find that I don't need graphite, though, and put this down to frequent use of the layout, which seems to mostly keep itself clean.

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I ran my Hornby 2P for a number of days before realising the side which faces away from the viewing side had slipped its tyre. Took it off and it still runs perfectly well, but my layout is level.

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I too had a Hornby 4F 0-6-0 with traction tyres on the centre axle which ran quite poorly. Experimentally I removed them from both sides and found to my surprise & delight that running improved dramatically and traction still proved more than sufficient for the 17 wagon train to which it is normally rostered. The track on Hest is C & L bullhead on the scenic section and Peco code 100 in the fiddle yard. No problems with wear or jamming have occurred.

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  • 1 year later...

IF the object of the exercise is to get rid of the tyres because they've become flaccid/worn out and NOT replace them then fine though I have a doubt about the groove catching on the railhead, however it does seem that experience mentioned above shows otherwise. On the other hand if you're looking to replace the tyres with new ones (if you can get them!) or an alternative, The Johnster has recommended elsewhere that Bullfrog Snot makes for a good substitute. A keen modeller that I know, who is also an electrician, uses small slices of heat-shrink tube (various diameters are available) and then warms the slice, once neatly in the groove, with the back of a low heat soldering iron - seemed to work for him.

 

I am in need to do a couple of dozen locos where the tyres have degraded due to oil and old age and I know that most of them I shan't be able to change the wheelsets due to cost and availability of replacement wheels. Doing without may just work!

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

Edited by Philou
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On 20/03/2020 at 12:02, The Johnster said:

Track cleaning, along with wheel and pickup cleaning, is another issue.  Tyres spread crud around your railheads, as do plastic wheels, and I have found that the need for cleaning in general is hugely reduced by eliminating anything except metal wheels from all your stock.  Locos seem to be quite individualistic in this regard, with Bachmann giving the best performances, and a Hornby 2721 requiring cleaning nearly every time it's is used.  I find that I don't need graphite, though, and put this down to frequent use of the layout, which seems to mostly keep itself clean.

 

I have now replaced this Hornby generic chassis with one from a Baccy 57xx, and running is thus improved by an amount I would describe as quantum.  The situation is still less than ideal of course, as the fishbelly coupling rods are incorrect for my prototype, 2761 at the end of her service life 1948-50.  This is not what you'd call a fine scale RTR loco to start with, though, even when it was introduced over 40 years ago, and is what it is.  I've worked up some of the details, but the bottom line is that it at best a polished t*rd.  If any RTR manufacturer were to bring out one, or an 1854, to current standards, I'd bin it like a shot and put the chassis back under the 57xx it came from.

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