Farish Due Soon

[woodenhead]

27 minutes ago, fezza said:

 

It's unlikely - a lot of these manufacturers are using the same or similar factories. Plus Kader have a lot more collective clout and potential economies of scale than a comparative minnow like Dapol. 

Also competing in house Bachmann US versus Bachmann Europe vs G Farish and the other lines they have - the same factories produce the models, they will have to have a given level of return to get a production slot otherwise they wait.

[fezza]

1 hour ago, grahame said:

 

It's not just about factories. For example I think you forget that Bachmann has a large office/warehouse/sales, service and support building in, what is effectively a foreign country, to support the small British market. They also seem to have an extensive sales and merchandising staff department that is larger than other manufacturers.

 

 

Yes, but Bach/Farish can be more efficient by sharing their marketing and logistics costs across a massive business empire, while Dapol can't do that. It's  basic economies of scale. If their costs are 40% higher despite their economies of scale  then they really are in trouble - and the fact they have survived for so long suggests they aren't! But they are pushing up prices to see what the market will stand. 

 

In the end people pay their money and take their choice, but let's not pretend these large Farish price increases are inevitable as other manufacturers haven't imposed huge price hikes or a to-competitive maximum discount policies. 

 

As for Dapol products being poorer, I've had more problems with Farish products than Dapol - and that seems to be reflected in all the comments on here about split gears, faulty picks and points fouling issues. I don't think you can say any one manufacturer is necessarily producing better products. The Dapol pacer is poor, but so is the Farish 170, while both the Dapol 68 and Farish 70 are both very good. 

[grahame]

51 minutes ago, fezza said:

Yes, but Bach/Farish can be more efficient by sharing their marketing and logistics costs across a massive business empire, while Dapol can't do that. It's  basic economies of scale.

 

I doubt that. They can't share any meaningful marketing and logistics from America, Japan or where ever their other markets are. They are very different and separate, with unique products to market and promote, and goods to move and merchandise.

 

Edited April 20, 2021 by grahame

[TomE]

2 hours ago, fezza said:

The Dapol pacer is poor, but so is the Farish 170

Apples & Pears. The Farish 170 dates from 2006 whilst the Dapol Pacer is a product from 2020.
 

The 170 is very much a product of its time and with 14 years between the two it makes the 142 look even worse, if that’s even possible. 
 

I do agree with you though that the Dapol 68 is an excellent model, very much up there with the best of RTR. 
 

Tom. 

[fezza]

27 minutes ago, TomE said:

Apples & Pears. The Farish 170 dates from 2006 whilst the Dapol Pacer is a product from 2020.
 

The 170 is very much a product of its time and with 14 years between the two it makes the 142 look even worse, if that’s even possible. 
 

I do agree with you though that the Dapol 68 is an excellent model, very much up there with the best of RTR. 
 

Tom. 

 

Yes, I take your point but to be fair Dapol are charging what is essentially a 2006 price for their  Pacer, while Farish are charging a 2022 price for their very dated 170.

 

I am certainly willing to be proved wrong, but it would surprise me greatly if Bachmann don't share logistics and marketing expertise across their range. Designing an advert or a catalogue or a website requires similar skills whatever the product. The same goes for logistics planning. If they don't share expertise, they really need to get in some business consultants...

[grahame]

10 hours ago, fezza said:

 

I am certainly willing to be proved wrong, but it would surprise me greatly if Bachmann don't share logistics and marketing expertise across their range. Designing an advert or a catalogue or a website requires similar skills whatever the product. The same goes for logistics planning. If they don't share expertise, they really need to get in some business consultants...

 

I think you'll find that all their marketing (advertising, promotions, catalogues, merchandising, etc) for their UK products is carried out in-house by their Barwell (UK) operation and not in China. Their customer base is British and they have a British approach to it. The sharing of skills would be very difficult across half the world and two languages. I doubt many at Barwell speak mandarin and vice-versa.

 

 

[woodenhead]

We have to understand that Bachmann Europe (and by being an even smaller part) Farish have to fight with other production lines in China for production space, hence the launch of EFE as a means of getting more product available via other production facilities.  The only way they will get production slots in Kader factories is if the the product makes a similar amount of return as other non Bachmann Europe products.

 

My company has a profit margin target, in general terms if the profit margin is not there we don't do the work, in model railway terms, the products won't be produced if the profit margin isn't sufficient.

[fezza]

Yes, it may be that the corporate organisation of Kader is the problem, with pricing policy being determined by the need  for Farish to show a better margin than other competing parts of the business. That, however, really makes my point - these rises are not being driven by rising costs as much as corporate greed. 

 

It is only possible due to limited competition and rationed supply. But we are where we are I guess. 

[fezza]

1 hour ago, grahame said:

 

I think you'll find that all their marketing (advertising, promotions, catalogues, merchandising, etc) for their UK products is carried out in-house by their Barwell (UK) operation and not in China. Their customer base is British and they have a British approach to it. The sharing of skills would be very difficult across half the world and two languages. I doubt many at Barwell speak mandarin and vice-versa.

 

 

 

It would be interesting to know what is done at Barwell. Its only a small set up, but yes I am sure there would be some local imput. 

 

Most educated Chinese people speak English as a second language. Many of my Chinese students have excellent English, as do those in our business school. I would imagine key tech and logistics people would be in this category as Kader is a massive set of businesses. 

Edited April 21, 2021 by fezza

[grahame]

19 minutes ago, fezza said:

 

It would be interesting to know what is done at Barwell. Its only a small set up, but yes I am sure there would be some local imput. 

 

 

Having visited on several occasions, it's actually quite a large set up especially compared with other manufacturers I've visited. It includes a marketing dept, sales dept, service dept, warehousing and other functions. They also undertake initial new product research and design. It's more than just some local input to the UK business. 

 

 

 

 

[Chris M]

1 hour ago, fezza said:

Yes, it may be that the corporate organisation of Kader is the problem, with pricing policy being determined by the need  for Farish to show a better margin than other competing parts of the business. That, however, really makes my point - these rises are not being driven by rising costs as much as corporate greed. 

 

It is only possible due to limited competition and rationed supply. But we are where we are I guess. 

Investing in the products that are expected to provide the best return on investment is sensible business, in fact it is the only way to stay in business. It is not corporate greed. It 

[bmthtrains - David]

Not quite sure how this thread has become a Bash/Defence of Farish, but everyone’s business models - Farish, Dapol, whoever - evidently work for them as they all continue to thrive. Guessing the economics or even ethics of a company seems a pretty futile exercise to me...

 

David

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, fezza said:

Yes, it may be that the corporate organisation of Kader is the problem, with pricing policy being determined by the need  for Farish to show a better margin than other competing parts of the business. That, however, really makes my point - these rises are not being driven by rising costs as much as corporate greed. 

 

It is only possible due to limited competition and rationed supply. But we are where we are I guess. 

But all businesses exist to make a profit, what you are suggesting is that they are making excessive profits through their pricing with no evidence other than comparing Dapol and Farish without understanding how both of those companies operate.

[fezza]

The nature and competitiveness of the market determines the price at which a product changes hands. Production costs simply inform the decision about whether it can be produced at a profit. 

 

I'm just grateful that Dapol and Kato are providing competition - and exposing Farish's inflated prices for what they are. In the end the consumers doesn't care about how a company is run - just the price paid and the quality delivered. Farish have been able to cream money on the Mk 2fs but look how much Farish coaching stock is lying around in shops years after production. 

[Roy L S]

6 hours ago, fezza said:

The nature and competitiveness of the market determines the price at which a product changes hands. Production costs simply inform the decision about whether it can be produced at a profit. 

 

I'm just grateful that Dapol and Kato are providing competition - and exposing Farish's inflated prices for what they are. In the end the consumers doesn't care about how a company is run - just the price paid and the quality delivered. Farish have been able to cream money on the Mk 2fs but look how much Farish coaching stock is lying around in shops years after production. 

Quality comes at a price and the latest Farish products like the 8F are of the utmost quality. 

 

I guess if you don't like it you can choose not to buy, but businesses need to make a return on investment and I don't see any evidence given rising cost of materials, wages shipping that they are ripping anyone off.

 

Regards

 

Roy

[Davexoc]

8 hours ago, fezza said:

I'm just grateful that Dapol and Kato are providing competition - and exposing Farish's inflated prices for what they are. In the end the consumers doesn't care about how a company is run - just the price paid and the quality delivered. Farish have been able to cream money on the Mk 2fs but look how much Farish coaching stock is lying around in shops years after production. 

 

But Dapol are prone to some wierd livery colours and application, incorrect fonts in both size and positioning. I would add that although I haven't had any split gears, my Western which has no speaker, does quite a good impression of one, and most mechanisms from them are quite noisey. I won't comment on the 142, but after the 68, the 50 was a bit of a let down in several areas.

As for Kato, they are huge in N gauge compared to Farish, it being the dominant scale in Japan.

 

The fact that the Mk2fs sold well, surely shows that the price is not that over inflated. You've just got to accept that prices are what they are, afterall, all those Chinese workers want all the Western luxury items that we have, and the fact that we didn't want to pay the price for European manufacture years ago is the root cause. They offered the cheaper option back then and we jumped at it. Now they hold the trump cards and we will continue to fund their Western Lifestyle aspirations.....

[Steven B]

17 hours ago, Roy L S said:

Quality comes at a price and the latest Farish products like the 8F are of the utmost quality. 

 

The trouble is that some of the Farish range isn't of the utmost quality. Some of the older, less detailed, models are being sold at prices not far behind the latest and greatest. Some examples (all RRPs from Bachman website)

 

The HEA coal hopper at £18.95 feels over priced compared to the OAB at £19.95 (whilst the forthcoming HAA will be an absolute bargain if the price stays at £16.95).

 

Different eras accepted, but two Bogie Bolster C at £32.95 each feels better value than a FIA twin-set at £89.95.

 

DMU's pricings are a little odd:

Class 150 - £219.95 (two car DMU with wealth of underframe and interior detail)

Class 170 - £179.95 (two car DMU with blobby underframe and printed detail)

Class 101 - £199.96 (two car DMU with wealth of underframe and interior detail)

Class 108 - £239.95 (three car DMU with wealth of underframe and interior detail)

 

The four car units are even stranger:

Class 220 - £399.96

Class 350 - £299.96

Class 319 - £319.95

 

They all feel over priced when you compare to a Dapol two car class 156 at £135 (similar price for Dapol single car DMUs)

 

Fortunately there's not much left that I need/want although when there are newer models (like the Mk2F) then I think it's now a case of buy what you want now (and in one hit) rather than spread purchases across a few months. If it's something like a TSO you're after then it's the only way of guaranteeing you'll get what you want and you'll save money on the price of any eventual reruns.

 

 

Steven B.

[Revolution Mike]

On 21/04/2021 at 12:48, fezza said:

I'm just grateful that Dapol and Kato are providing competition - and exposing Farish's inflated prices for what they are. In the end the consumers doesn't care about how a company is run - just the price paid and the quality delivered. Farish have been able to cream money on the Mk 2fs but look how much Farish coaching stock is lying around in shops years after production. 

How are Dapol or Kato exposing inflated prices from Farish? I’d be prepared to wager that Kato will make more profit on their Cl800 than Farish do on any of their models (just simply a function of the size of their Japanese customer base and their normal production runs). That isn’t an implied criticism of Kato just reality. 
 

Unless you’re seeing a lot of quotes from the various factories (I don’t know if you do or not) or are involved in Farish’s pricing then you have no way of knowing what level of profit they are making. 
 

Comparing different models from even the same manufacturer (let alone different factories - Farish mostly use Kader’s own factories which I suspect doesn’t always help them whereas the likes of us and Dapol can ask for competitive tenders) from different years doesn’t help you as tooling costs and designs change so much. 
 

I don’t see much difference in the price of something like Dapol’s 68 and say Farish’s 40 (both were around £140 RRP when they first came out). Bottom line if you want a 68 buy a Dapol model, if you want a 40 you buy a Farish model...

[Davexoc]

Got the latest price update for buying plastic today, our HDPE is now over 80% more than it was last June.

It doesn't just affect HDPE either, because most plastics are in short supply for various reasons.

Anybody who hasn't started passing these costs on to their customers already, could soon be in trouble.

[acg5324]

Amazingly the Bachmann delivery at Monk Bar Models today included some N gauge….
G&W liveried class 66s

Three versions of the N class including the sound fitted SR green one.

RU in blue grey weathered with Commonwealth bogies

RU in chocolate and cream.

RU in maroon.

Edited June 26, 2021 by acg5324

[csiedmo]

A couple of updates from the Bachmann website:

- Conflats have been put back to Aug/Sept

- Class 14s now have a due date: Apr/May 2023.

 

There may be other updates that I have failed to notice.

 

Cheers,

Ed

 

 

[Ch4lkst3r]

According to the Farish website the Mark 1 suburban coaches have arrived so hopefully they'll be with the retailers soon

[acg5324]

Quote

According to the Farish website the Mark 1 suburban coaches have arrived so hopefully they'll be with the retailers soon

 

Ours arrived mid week…..almost all gone already…..

Edited August 20, 2022 by acg5324

[acg5324]

A variety of Conflats and containers have arrived today along with the weathered Mainline blue liveried class 37.

Edited August 26, 2022 by acg5324
Typo

[47475]

Interesting to see that the BR Olive Green 12T ventilated van (373-704) delivered a few months ago, originally advertised as '12T Ventilated Van Plywood Doors BR Departmental Olive Green' turned into an exact re-release of 373-702A from 2003, i.e. a planked doors version with no differences at all.