Worst looking locomotive topic. Antidote to Best Looking Locomotive topic.

[rogerzilla]

I quite like the 21/29 - a nose always improved things (and facilitated two windows), until it was ruled out by the "flat front" requirement.

 

The Metrovicks had three windows, although sometimes two or even one 😉

[kevinlms]

On 09/11/2022 at 23:02, rogerzilla said:

 

The gangway door requirement forced most older diesels to have three front windows, but getting rid of them meant that two would suffice.

The later Class 25's looked very smart with their 3 large windows.

[The Johnster]

They did, but like all of the first generation diesels, even those reconfigured after the demise of the gangway doors and some that I would describe as second generation, such as the later Peaks, and 37s, suffered from poor forward visibility for the crew below a horizontal line of sight.  This can be seen on locos where the lower edge of the side windows is lower than that of the front windows.  A benefit of the Western/Hymek/47/50/AL series electrics approach was that sighting of ground signals and of staff close to on the ground, especially those that are going to be going between to couple up, an important safety consideration, is greatly improved; on older styles you had to look out of the side window.  Much day-to-day railway work was affected by the drivers' line of sight and communication by handsignals from staff at ground level, something it is diffcult to be fully aware of until you've done some of it and immedieately obvious afterwards!

 

Forward visibility from the driving seat of locos with noses is not much better than steam (so of course it was perfectly accptable to drivers used to steam), and even on the likes of 24/5s (even the later restyled ones)  Metrovicks, 21/2/9, Warships and so on drivers of shorter stature had to peer over the bottom edge like Chad Wotno if they were to keep a foot on the deadman's.  Deltics, very American, had huge high noses but higher-set cab floors with mitigated things to some extend.  Exceptions were the 31s and BRCW locos, which had deeper front windows.

Edited November 12, 2022 by The Johnster

[Steamport Southport]

Worth considering the Class 37s are still very much still with us whilst many of the others are long gone. So any perceived lack of forward vision is probably a bit of a misnomer.

 

 

 

Jason

[Flying Fox 34F]

There are visibility issues with the latest generation of trains, especially the 8xx provided by Hitachi.  It is rather awkward in situations where the Signalling system is down and Temporary Block or Pilot working is in use.

 

Paul

[DenysW]

7 minutes ago, Flying Fox 34F said:

There are visibility issues with the latest generation of train

But they are all ugly! And (according to the Rev. Awdry of Thomas fame) Evil. Visibility seems low on the scale compared to these Deadly Sins.

[The Johnster]

7 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Worth considering the Class 37s are still very much still with us whilst many of the others are long gone. So any perceived lack of forward vision is probably a bit of a misnomer.

 

 

 

Jason

Not really a misnomer, and not really a lack of forward visibility as such, more that some locos were better than others in this irespect.  You can see where you are going on a 37, and see the signals, but you’smd see much better on a 47, or even a 31.   A good indication is how far short of a ground signal a driver stops; he will pull up where he can see the aspect easily from his seat without straining his neck but on some of the locos I mentioned he used the side window or he’d have had to stop a hundred yards or more away!
 

As Jason will know, the frequently seen model railway error of a loco stopped with it’s buffers level with the front of the the signal post is exactly that, an error, and a distance of about a coach length is more typical.  Of course, we are usually short of space and compromise on this, but the more room you can leave the better it will look.  With steam locos running smokebox leading a wagon length is probably adequate for appearance on a 4mm model.   
 

Another aspect of this is crash protection; flat fronted locos offered none, and certainly many drivers I knew when I worked on the railway in the 70s told me that they missed the security of having the robustly built boiler of a steam engine between them and anything they thought they might hit at speed, and noses were appreciated as better than nothing.  Whether they were or not is moot; one of my regular drivers, Harry Hitchins, was killed on a 46 ( they had very solidly built mainframes and weighed 142 tons) which hit a stalled skip lorry on an occupation crossing near Awre Jc in 1978 IIRC; the loco crumpled back to the rear cab bulkhead and he never stood a chance…
 

I’m not surprised to hear that the Hitachi 800s are not quite on the mark for best practice, in fact this aspect of loco design, which I consider important, seems to be a fairly low priority in general.  The prototype HST cab had to be altered with an extra side window on the production trains, and the lower edge of the driver’s field of vision through the cab windows was deliberately restricted to avoid distracting him at high speed, and the seats were positioned towards the centre of the cab, which further removed him from the outside world.  The lower edge of the passenger windows was raised as well.  

 

The prototype gas turbine APT/E cab was an awful looking thing, and I never fully understood how the driver saw anything out  of it; must have been like driving through a letterbox!

[DavidB-AU]

To me the NBL Type 2 looks like a bit fell off.

 

Cue "the front fell off" sketch...

[rogerzilla]

The irony is that you can now stick an HD CCTV camera on the nose of a Class 20, or even a steam engine, for just a couple of hundred pounds and forward visibility becomes almost irrelevant.  I'm not sure where you'd put a TV screen in a Flying Pig, of course.

[Ramblin Rich]

48 minutes ago, rogerzilla said:

The irony is that you can now stick an HD CCTV camera on the nose of a Class 20, or even a steam engine, for just a couple of hundred pounds and forward visibility becomes almost irrelevant.  I'm not sure where you'd put a TV screen in a Flying Pig, of course.

Go full 'Captain Scarlet' and drive facing backwards using the CCTV, like invyhe Spectrum Pursuit Vehicle.

 

"There were moves afoot to have rear-facing seats in airliners. In the event of a crash-landing the passengers would be forced into their seats as the plane decelerated, as opposed to being hurled forwards ... I thought, 'I'll be very smart here and on this futuristic SPV we'll have seats facing backwards"

— Gerry Anderson on the SPV concept [Wikipedia]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum_Pursuit_Vehicle

 

[rockershovel]

Driving backwards at high speed guided by a video screen sounds like some sort of futuristic arcade game!

[DavidB-AU]

3 hours ago, rogerzilla said:

The irony is that you can now stick an HD CCTV camera on the nose of a Class 20, or even a steam engine, for just a couple of hundred pounds and forward visibility becomes almost irrelevant.  I'm not sure where you'd put a TV screen in a Flying Pig, of course.

 

And for not much more you can add a night vision camera to any loco or unit.

[The Johnster]

Hmm.  And of course you can wash/wipe the camera lens remotely and use some sort of steadycam technology to counteract the loco’s bouncing around at speed.  A motor driven zoom lens, say f4 at 18mm-200mm would suffice for most purposes.  Cameras facing forwards, downward at the cab sides and rearward on the sides further back would cover most situations, and microphones & speakers allow communication with staff on the ground.  
 

The driver doesn’t even need to be aboard the loco, just somewhere on Earth with an internet connection & plenty bandwidth/speed.  Staff on the ground don’t  need to actually be present either. 

 

 

 

[burgundy]

8 hours ago, Ramblin Rich said:

"There were moves afoot to have rear-facing seats in airliners. In the event of a crash-landing the passengers would be forced into their seats as the plane decelerated, as opposed to being hurled forwards ... I thought, 'I'll be very smart here and on this futuristic SPV we'll have seats facing backwards"

— Gerry Anderson on the SPV concept [Wikipedia]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum_Pursuit_Vehicle

 

He had obviously never travelled as self-loading cargo on a Royal Air Force VC10.

Best wishes 

Eric

[rogerzilla]

6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Hmm.  And of course you can wash/wipe the camera lens remotely and use some sort of steadycam technology to counteract the loco’s bouncing around at speed.  A motor driven zoom lens, say f4 at 18mm-200mm would suffice for most purposes.  Cameras facing forwards, downward at the cab sides and rearward on the sides further back would cover most situations, and microphones & speakers allow communication with staff on the ground.  
 

The driver doesn’t even need to be aboard the loco, just somewhere on Earth with an internet connection & plenty bandwidth/speed.  Staff on the ground don’t  need to actually be present either. 

 

 

 

You'd need a pretty meaty servomotor to work a Lockyer double beat regulator on a Gresley loco 😄

[DenysW]

11 hours ago, rogerzilla said:

The irony is that you can now stick an HD CCTV camera on the nose of a Class 20, or even a steam engine,

Not sure about the steam engine. There's a whole world of dirt and vibration out there waiting to destroy anything remotely sensitive.

[Welly]

Austrian Railways had an experimental 15kV AC electric loco using onboard rotary converter before WW2 - it looked like a weird mix of Fell diesel chassis, steam loco boiler and pantographs. Oh and the headlights on the front reminded me of Jar Jar Binks! There was a HO model made! http://www.locomodel.it/Pagine/Locomodel_BBÖ_1082_H0.html

[Pacific231G]

On 15/11/2022 at 22:35, Ramblin Rich said:

Go full 'Captain Scarlet' and drive facing backwards using the CCTV, like invyhe Spectrum Pursuit Vehicle.

 

"There were moves afoot to have rear-facing seats in airliners. In the event of a crash-landing the passengers would be forced into their seats as the plane decelerated, as opposed to being hurled forwards ... I thought, 'I'll be very smart here and on this futuristic SPV we'll have seats facing backwards"

— Gerry Anderson on the SPV concept [Wikipedia]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum_Pursuit_Vehicle

 

 

On 16/11/2022 at 07:25, burgundy said:

He had obviously never travelled as self-loading cargo on a Royal Air Force VC10.

 

It wasn't just their VC10s. At one time (and very possibly still) it was the norm for RAF Transport Command passenger seating to be rear facing for exactly that reason. Civil operators never did simply because passengers don't like it and the chances of it making a difference in any flight are very small. The chances of a military flight ending abruptly are far greater  and tactical landings in any case involve far greater decelerations after landing.

I was once shown around one of RAF 32 (The Royal) squadron's BAe 146s at a fly-in and the seating in that was definitely facing forward. I assume though that in a tactical rather than a VIP/Royal role the seats could be reversed.  

Edited July 22, 2023 by Pacific231G

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, Welly said:

Austrian Railways had an experimental 15kV AC electric loco using onboard rotary converter before WW2 - it looked like a weird mix of Fell diesel chassis, steam loco boiler and pantographs. Oh and the headlights on the front reminded me of Jar Jar Binks! There was a HO model made! http://www.locomodel.it/Pagine/Locomodel_BBÖ_1082_H0.html

 

That illustrates just how much the appearance of modern traction is down to the tinwork that covers the gubbins inside.  Shrink-wrap the working parts and it all gets a bit Nemo Ramjet, though I actually quite like the result in this case.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[melmerby]

On 16/11/2022 at 01:34, The Johnster said:

The driver doesn’t even need to be aboard the loco, just somewhere on Earth with an internet connection & plenty bandwidth/speed.  Staff on the ground don’t  need to actually be present either. 

They're all working from home.

 

Trains would just need to carry virtual passengers as they are also all working from home.😀

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, Welly said:

Austrian Railways had an experimental 15kV AC electric loco using onboard rotary converter before WW2 - it looked like a weird mix of Fell diesel chassis, steam loco boiler and pantographs. Oh and the headlights on the front reminded me of Jar Jar Binks! There was a HO model made! http://www.locomodel.it/Pagine/Locomodel_BBÖ_1082_H0.html

Take the pantographs off and stick a chimney at the front and it would just about pass as a turbomotive.

[The Johnster]

I'd say it's just too plain weird to be considered ugly, or anything really except weird; it's weirdness overwhelms any and all other considerations.  Proportionally it has a sort of dignity to it.

Edited July 22, 2023 by The Johnster

[adb968008]

On 13/11/2022 at 17:51, Steamport Southport said:

Worth considering the Class 37s are still very much still with us whilst many of the others are long gone. So any perceived lack of forward vision is probably a bit of a misnomer.

 

 

 

Jason

Lack of forward vision,  i was surprised how limited vision 455’s are / were..

 

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by adb968008

[kevinlms]

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Lack of forward vision,  i was surprised how limited vision 455’s are / were..

 

 

Imagine what the outcome would be, if you tried to introduce a road vehicle, with anything approaching that level of restricted view! Also the seat.