Exhibition cancellations (not much to do with that anymore!)

[TEAMYAKIMA]

5 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

That said, T Yakeee, I have to say I do like your guests choice of scarf and bow tie. Very dapper. 

 

Rob. 

 

That's not a guest - that's me!  (the one on the left before anyone asks!)

[Chris116]

1 minute ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

 

That's not a guest - that's me!  (the one on the left before anyone asks!)

Sorry, I didn't see you. Too busy looking at the nice person on the right!

[TEAMYAKIMA]

1 hour ago, 43110andyb said:

We’re hoping to do just that with Charwelton into the 80’s! Hire the church hall (just for us owners) where it resides and maybe even have a running session streamed!

 

I hadn't thought of streaming a running session, but that's a very interesting idea.

 

The reason for me hiring the local church hall (and van) is two fold ..................

 

1. A test running session - there will have been many changes since the layout's last outing and a long running session woukld be very useful to evaluate the chaanges.

 

2. The loss of the Aly Paly show was a big blow for my non-enthusiast friends who might have traveled to a north London exhibition, but no further. So most invitations will go to friends and neighbours rather than fellow enthusiasts. Oh, and exhibition managers who I want to schmooze and get an invitation in return.

Edited July 7, 2020 by TEAMYAKIMA

[NHY 581]

11 minutes ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

 

That's not a guest - that's me!  (the one on the left before anyone asks!)

 

 

Apologies, I thought you were on the right. My bad. 

 

Rob. 

[Gilbert]

4 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

 

 

Apologies, I thought you were on the right. My bad. 

 

Rob. 

Easy mistake to make Rob.....

[APOLLO]

4 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

And that, I think, is the best way of restarting something when it's appropriate to do so. A group of friends club together for a small venue and friends/contacts arrange to come and chip in with costs for a day with one or two layouts. Your rules, your measures and your terms and you have contact info for everyone in case anything occurs.

 

Agree, a small local exhibition would attract quite a few locals, and not cost a lot and thus less risk monetarily to the organisers. I would visit one rather than my local (cancelled) large local Wigan exhibition as I perceive it would be less personal risk (covid wise)

 

Now Manchester Airport is doing very little business, and has a spare runway, perhaps we can persuade Heaton Lodge40 to set up there - social distancing would be no problem (but the rain might be) !!

 

Brit15

[PenrithBeacon]

It's difficult to see how you could do social distancing/shielding at shows. You could protect exhibitors using the sort of huge plastic screens seen in many shops now, but visitors would have to wear masks as a minimum and there would need to be hand gel stations too.

But I wonder what would be the attitude of insurers. With contact and trace methods it will be possible to to track infections down to a place and time within a day. There will be no hiding place at all.

I doubt if anyone in the insurance industry would be willing to underwrite the risk of civil action to either the show organisers or the owners of the venue.  

I think we have seen the last of shows for a long time, sorry.

Regards

[newbryford]

12 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

 

I think we have seen the last of shows for a long time, sorry.

Regards

 

In which case, you can also say goodbye to crowds at sports events, live music concerts, and theatres that are 2/3 empty, pubs with shoulder to shoulder at the bar, weddings, barmitzvahs (other ceremonies are available) and any other form of gathering that involves the close proximity of other humans.

[AY Mod]

28 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

But I wonder what would be the attitude of insurers. With contact and trace methods it will be possible to to track infections down to a place and time within a day.

 

This aspect is a red herring. It's not something that insurance covers or has ever covered. Even if you could prove you caught a contagious disease from another customer in a shop, for example, there is no liability on the part of the shop owner. You would have to pursue a civil claim against the other individual. In the context of a model railway event good luck in an action against a fellow showgoer or exhibitor. Even if you could prove you caught it from a representative of the organiser or venue it's not an insurance claim.

[DutyDruid]

10 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

 

With contact and trace methods it will be possible to to track infections down to a place and time within a day. There will be no hiding place at all.

 

 

Reading this comment from David (which together with the news that one of the pubs that has had to close again because someone tested positive is less than 5 miles from our venue) has suddenly bought the enormity of the mountain home to me.

 

About 5 years ago we went over to using Tyvek wristbands for ticketing because it made life so much easier for both us and the leisure centre (who do our box office function for us).  Most people happily comply with the "please put it on" rule; there is the odd unfortunate soul who couldn't comply because their wrists we too thick, but then there is a real hard-core of "you have no right to ask me to do that", and dealing with that worries me.

 

And then there's the whole "administration" and GDPR thing. 

 

What do you do if someone causes a scene at the pay desk by refusing to fill the details in?  Or clearly scribbles a nonsense entry?  We would have no "powers" to enforce.  We have a footfall north of 3000 at Fareham RailEx, the first couple of hours on Saturday generally sees around 500 through the door, dealing with that, and the "no right" brigade, we would need an army of clerks to enforce the collection of data.  Our survey forms regularly see a return rate of about 15%, and that's with an army of stewards to "cajole" people into filling them in.

 

And then what happens if - as in the case of the pub in Alverstoke - you get a "positive" on someone who was in that early Saturday scrum?  Who is going to do the follow up?  I think the idea is that this is handed over to the official "Track and Trace" team but I get the impression that some of the Pubs that got in to trouble at the weekend have been told to "do it themselves".  Who wants that mountain of work at short notice?

 

No, I think we've done the right thing to cancel and I am reluctantly coming to the conclusion that some of the doomsayers here might actually be right...

 

Elliott

[Pete the Elaner]

11 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

With contact and trace methods it will be possible to to track infections down to a place and time within a day. There will be no hiding place at all.

 

 

This another hope like vaccinations. Contact & trace needs a lot more testing & requires everyone to carry a smartphone. The technical stuff cannot all be out in place overnight & it is not compulsory to carry a smartphone everywhere. I cannot see this being made so either. It therefore

 cannot be considered a viable solution at this time.

 

29 minutes ago, DutyDruid said:

 

And then there's the whole "administration" and GDPR thing. 

 

 

Absolutely. It must be somewhere next to impossible to implement contact & trace while complying with GDPR.

 

11 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

 

I think we have seen the last of shows for a long time, sorry.

 

 

Many venues are still closed because of lock down. They are not charities. They are businesses who need to trade or they will fail, so the government has 2 choices, just like it had with restaurants: let them open or compensate them. (Leaving them closed without furlough is a non-option) Any compensation will eventually be recouped from taxes because that's where all government money eventually comes from & they won't like raising taxes any more than they need to.

 

Some will take a chance on small shows & the one at exactly the right time will be very successful, but nobody knows when this will be until after the event.

Larger shows are more of an outlay, therefore more of a risk, so small shows will probably be with us sooner than larger ones.

Will we see a change in trends from 2 day shows to 1 day because they cost less in venue hire & hotel expenses? I think this is likely.

 

 

[PenrithBeacon]

Epidemiologists have been doing contact and trace for decades without the use of smartphones and it can still be done that way. See the results in Japan and Taiwan as examples.

I'm not convinced about smartphone apps either, I'm not convinced that Bluetooth technology is up to it. Having said that, with care, I do think that data protection issues can be successfully addressed no matter which way the process is carried out.

Cheers

[Phil Traxson]

39 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Epidemiologists have been doing contact and trace for decades without the use of smartphones and it can still be done that way. See the results in Japan and Taiwan as examples.

I'm not convinced about smartphone apps either, I'm not convinced that Bluetooth technology is up to it. Having said that, with care, I do think that data protection issues can be successfully addressed no matter which way the process is carried out.

Cheers

Lets face it, it would have to be done without smart phones, unless they are free issue! Not everyone has one, not every one wants one, myself included. I have a mobile phone,  which is all it's used for, as a phone. Looks like I may not be visiting the pub, when they reopen in Wales, because I can't order my beer with an app I don't have! Or do I order in advance from home for a specified time and table? 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Phil Traxson

[Dunsignalling]

12 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

In which case, you can also say goodbye to crowds at sports events, live music concerts, and theatres that are 2/3 empty, pubs with shoulder to shoulder at the bar, weddings, barmitzvahs (other ceremonies are available) and any other form of gathering that involves the close proximity of other humans.

Exactly.

 

Until the requirement for any social distancing goes away, none of the above will be financially viable in a form that we would have previously recognised. That's where a vaccine comes in, always supposing one can be produced. If not, all economic bets over even the medium term are off.

 

Unless, of course, the greatly reduced number of paying customers that are to be allowed through the doors/gates/turnstiles are willing to pay substantially more for the privilege.

 

Even once the requirement for social distancing is withdrawn, a significant number of people who have adjusted to minimising contact with others over the past few months will need to be persuaded that economic factors aren't overriding public health concerns. Again, for many, resumption of anything resembling the status quo ante will be dependent upon their having been vaccinated.

 

As a nation, we are still losing around 150 of our countrymen and women to this virus every day. That's a lot fewer than it was, but is still a serious number. The question nobody addresses (or perhaps wants to) is this: how much of the reduction has occurred simply because a large proportion of the most vulnerable have already succumbed? 

 

Covid-19 hasn't gone away, and it will be quite capable of coming back with a vengeance if we let our guard down carelessly.

 

 

John

 

 

[Pete the Elaner]

27 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Epidemiologists have been doing contact and trace for decades without the use of smartphones and it can still be done that way. See the results in Japan and Taiwan as examples.

 

 

No, it cannot be done outside of a controlled, closed environment. Neither the UK, Japan or Taiwan can be considered closed, controlled environments.

 

Consider the path of a London commuter (in this case me, when I was working there .. & assume I worked from memory).

6.20 - leave home & cycle to the station

6.38 - catch the train to Euston (Sometimes I miss this by trying to cut it too fine, but not today).

7.10-7.15 - Arrive at Euston & make my way to the Northern (Bank Branch). I don't remember any delay so would have got one 1 of 3 trains on the Northern which ran close together. I can't remember if I got on the nearest door just before it closed or I had time to walk to the far end, which is a better interchange point for getting off.

7.35-7.40 - change trains at Bank from the Northern to Jubilee & catch 1 of 3 possible trains on that line too.

7.50 - arrive at Canary Wharf.

I can't remember exactly what time I went out for lunch, but there are upwards of 80,000 working in Canary Wharf who I could possibly have come into contact with.

 

That would be about 80,000 people I may or may not have come into contact with that day, although probably only 100...but which 100?

 

I would have had a similar journey home, as would the other 80,000 who I may have come into contact with.

Any conclusions drawn from that will contain a huge amount of guesswork.

 

[Andy Hayter]

1 hour ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

 

 

 

Absolutely. It must be somewhere next to impossible to implement contact & trace while complying with GDPR.

 

 

 

I thought GDPR was only an issue if the data was put onto an electronic data storage device.

[Pete the Elaner]

1 minute ago, Andy Hayter said:

I thought GDPR was only an issue if the data was put onto an electronic data storage device.

 

Since the aim is to track people carrying a virus, some personal data would have to be stored somewhere.

[Barry O]

Back to the point of the thread

 

The Leeds Model Railway Society CIo have postponed our show from this October to 23rd and 24th October 2021.

 

While we have tried to contact layout owners and trade  not everyone has as yet replied. We can only apologies to anyone we have missed.

 

Reasons are two fold

1  We could hold the Exhibition at the Grammar School (they have stayed open all of the time due to a high number of pupils with family members who are "key" workers).

2 While we could hold the show, the amount of space which would need to be policed would involve a large number of stewards. The PPE for these stewards would cost a fair chunk of money - and it is felt that  the Show could not operate without incurring higher costs as well as (potentially) lower visitor numbers.

 

Baz

[Paul.Uni]

11 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

I thought GDPR was only an issue if the data was put onto an electronic data storage device.

GDPR covers the recording of any information in any form.

 

The company I work for had to destroy a load of loyalty cards because the form to register the card said to fill the form in (just email address and loyalty card number) and hand it to any member of staff. Because the company couldn't put in some systems that would stop the potential of that data being compromised, a new sign up method was needed.

[Guest Half-full]

7 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Larger shows are more of an outlay, therefore more of a risk, so small shows will probably be with us sooner than larger ones.

Will we see a change in trends from 2 day shows to 1 day because they cost less in venue hire & hotel expenses? I think this is likely.

There wouldn't be much difference in costs really.  Hiring a venue for a full weekend can be cheaper than just one day, and like wise booking a hotel room for 2 nights at the weekend can be cheaper than one night.

 

I have experience in the latter when booking accommodation for work 'team building' events at weekends.  When we were told we'd have to cut costs on these jollies, the first thing we looked at was cutting the accommodation costs.  ie, bus folk to the event on the friday afternoon, stay overnight have the event on the saturday morning and afternoon, and bus home on the sat evening, rather than the sunday afternoon.  The hotels groups we used gave better rates for both nights, rather than just the friday night - reason being its easier to sell the rooms for both nights, than just the sat night.  Despite having favourable rates, we were quoted around 25% more for just the friday night.

 

Another issue that could be faced is would layout owners travel any distance for a 1 day show?  The guys in my group have currently have a limit of 300 miles for a weekend show, but 50 miles for a 1 day show.

[RJS1977]

As an Information Rights Officer, a few words on GDPR:

 

The important principles of GDPR are that personal information should:

 

* Only be used for the purpose for which it was obtained

* Be kept to a minimum (i.e. don't ask for information you don't need)

* Not be kept longer than necessary

* Kept (and disposed of) securely

 

The Information Commisioner's Office have published guidance here on collection of data for contact tracing purposes. It's all pretty common sense stuff to be honest, the only thing that might not be immediately obvious would be not to have all the contact details below each other in a book so that someone filling in their details can read those of the people. above.

 

One way round this would be to have a spiral bound notebook, where when someone has written their details on the page, you turn the page over and put a rubber band around it. Another option would be to have printed slips that the visitors fill in and put in a sealed box with a slit in the lid (like a ballot box!).

 

The snags with either of those methods come not from GDPR but from practicalities. Having someone stop at the entry desk to sign a book and write down their phone number will slow down the queue behind them. Also there is the risk of cross-contamination of book or pen by the person writing their details down.

 

Either way, the information should be kept securely for a minimal period of time (I see no reason to keep it more than 2-3 weeks) then destroyed.

[JimFin]

14 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

Either way, the information should be kept securely for a minimal period of time (I see no reason to keep it more than 2-3 weeks) then destroyed.

Track and trace requirement is to have it available for 21 days if requested - along with the same details of the personnel working each shift.

 

Need to bear in mind that regulation governing shows and exhibitions have still NOT been relaxed and they are still prohibited. As when these prohibitions are lifted, I am sure there will be a lot of accompanying guidance as to how they are to be run.

 

19 hours ago, AY Mod said:

In the context of a model railway event good luck in an action against a fellow showgoer or exhibitor.

In this sad age, several claims management firms have registered businesses e.g. https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/12556474  so we can all look forward to a new set of claims adverts and unsolicited calls - or maybe I am just being cynical? Catch for a show organiser is, even if a claim has no merit - time and effort will have to be spent defending the claim - producing records - risk assessments etc. etc.

[great central]

2 minutes ago, JimFin said:

Track and trace requirement is to have it available for 21 days if requested - along with the same details of the personnel working each shift.

 

Need to bear in mind that regulation governing shows and exhibitions have still NOT been relaxed and they are still prohibited. As when these prohibitions are lifted, I am sure there will be a lot of accompanying guidance as to how they are to be run.

 

In this sad age, several claims management firms have registered businesses e.g. https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/12556474  so we can all look forward to a new set of claims adverts and unsolicited calls - or maybe I am just being cynical? Catch for a show organiser is, even if a claim has no merit - time and effort will have to be spent defending the claim - producing records - risk assessments etc. etc.

 

There's been one advertising on Planet Rock for several weeks now regarding business insurance and a possibility of cover for the current situation

[AY Mod]

13 minutes ago, JimFin said:

maybe I am just being cynical?

 

They'll on!y want easy claims they can win for minimal effort/cost.

[Dunsignalling]

50 minutes ago, Half-full said:

There wouldn't be much difference in costs really.  Hiring a venue for a full weekend can be cheaper than just one day, and like wise booking a hotel room for 2 nights at the weekend can be cheaper than one night.

 

I have experience in the latter when booking accommodation for work 'team building' events at weekends.  When we were told we'd have to cut costs on these jollies, the first thing we looked at was cutting the accommodation costs.  ie, bus folk to the event on the friday afternoon, stay overnight have the event on the saturday morning and afternoon, and bus home on the sat evening, rather than the sunday afternoon.  The hotels groups we used gave better rates for both nights, rather than just the friday night - reason being its easier to sell the rooms for both nights, than just the sat night.  Despite having favourable rates, we were quoted around 25% more for just the friday night.

 

Another issue that could be faced is would layout owners travel any distance for a 1 day show?  The guys in my group have currently have a limit of 300 miles for a weekend show, but 50 miles for a 1 day show.

Many who exhibit large layouts don't consider one-day shows worth the effort whatever the distance.

 

The group I used to be in loaded the (large) van Thursday evening or Friday morning depending on distance. That represented a good hour's work for a minimum of six people, and that with everything pre-packed in the clubroom. Travel, erect, stock and test Friday. Exhibit Saturday and Sunday. After closing, load, travel home, grabbing a meal en-route. On getting home, unload if back by around midnight, otherwise grab a few hours shut-eye and come back 0730 Monday in order to return the van before 9am and avoid an extra day's hire cost.

 

TBH, all bar a couple of us were/are of ages at which taking 24 hours out of the gap between setting up and breaking down would just make the whole process too physically strenuous to be pleasurable.

 

John