RMweb Premium Andy Hayter Posted August 21, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 21, 2020 46 minutes ago, RJS1977 said: Some of the social distancing issues can be resolved by having the same number of layouts, but smaller. A lot of the big 'roundy roundy' layouts take up a considerable amount of width - replacing them with 'long and thin' end-to-end layouts (or even N-gauge layouts which are small enough to fit a continuous run on a 2' baseboard) frees up extra aisle/circulating space with no loss in layout count. I am not at all convinced by this. Yes if you replace the big main line roundy roundy with branch line layouts, but some people like to see (and operate) main line trains. In my own case my H0 French roundy roundy is 30ft x 8ft. Operators work from the inside of the oval so by the time barriers are introduced, social distancing has been established. My UK fiddle yard to terminus which runs somewhat shorter trains (pre-grouping) but has a similar ethos of main line trains is 20ft x 3ft 6in. If it were a through station with another station throat and another fiddle yard it would be coming up to the 30ft mark long. Operation is from the front, so to generate social distancing the 3ft 6in width needs another 4ft 6 in added. In addition because of the width, it would need access from the other side in the event of a problem. So like for like as an 00 through station compared with an H0 through station the space requirements are very similar. What would be different is the viewing area. The French layout has 30ft viewing distance whereas the UK one would have only 18ft viewing distance. So with the same number of people viewing each layout, the UK layout would have 60% more people per viewing foot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Depends very much on the venue and the layouts of course. At the show I organise, I often have an 8' wide continuous run layout at one end of the hall. Replacing it with a 2' wide layout with 2' of operating space behind (I rarely invite front operation layouts) gains an extra 4' aisle width (assuming I don't make the centre block larger of course!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Phil Parker Posted August 21, 2020 Administrators Share Posted August 21, 2020 1 hour ago, RJS1977 said: Some of the social distancing issues can be resolved by having the same number of layouts, but smaller. A lot of the big 'roundy roundy' layouts take up a considerable amount of width - replacing them with 'long and thin' end-to-end layouts (or even N-gauge layouts which are small enough to fit a continuous run on a 2' baseboard) frees up extra aisle/circulating space with no loss in layout count. You can make the aisles as wide as you like, but it's frontage that matters. People will crowd around the scenic section of the layouts with their sweaty hands all over the barriers. Smaller layouts with spaces between them wouldn't help, and could make things worse as they crowd around the scenic areas. At least with the long layout you can spread out a bit. 1 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted August 21, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 21, 2020 On 17/08/2020 at 18:15, Furness Wagon said: Coniston but it looks like they were people who would have gone abroad on an all inclusive booze up where they expect to be cleaned up after and that they are above the rules of society. Marc Plenty of them in the West Country too. Fortunately, it's been p155ing it down on and off for the last three days. John 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted August 21, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 21, 2020 12 hours ago, Huw Griffiths said: I'm still not convinced that schools, colleges etc would necessarily be off limits - permanently - and at all times. Personally, i suspect that there might also be an element of choosing the right time - how would the start (or even middle) of summer vacations sound (or even the start of another break between terms / school years)? Of course, another issue right now is that "Corona" hasn't yet been beaten - so a number of people are, understandably, very wary. It'll be interesting to see what happens in the long run. Huw. Next July roughly tallies with the estimate that I think reasonably blends optimism and realism! It emerges from the various viewpoints on here that there are two kinds of optimism in operation, one is that exhibitions can and will resume in a form we'd recognise in 3-6 months without bringing down financial ruin upon the organisers; the other that we can't yet know exactly how, but have confidence the crisis will have become much more manageable in a year or so. I think I've worked out which group of "optimists" are least likely to be disappointed... John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 22 minutes ago, Phil Parker said: You can make the aisles as wide as you like, but it's frontage that matters. People will crowd around the scenic section of the layouts with their sweaty hands all over the barriers. Smaller layouts with spaces between them wouldn't help, and could make things worse as they crowd around the scenic areas. At least with the long layout you can spread out a bit. Again, depends on the design of layout. Some end-to-end layouts have a scenic area in front of the fiddle yard (some don't have a fiddle yard at all). Some continuous run layouts have the end curves as non-scenic areas. So it's perfectly possible to have an end-to-end layout with the same scenic frontage as the continuous layout it replaces. I was thinking in particular of venues like Gaydon, where in GETS days, some of the aisle space was so narrow that people viewing some of the layouts made it impossible for others to pass. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gr.king Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 3 hours ago, Phil Parker said: People will crowd around the scenic section of the layouts with their sweaty hands all over the barriers. Don't you mean that they'll drape their beer gut over the barrier and use the rest of their slumped sweaty form to try try to shove the barrier right through the layout? 2 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted August 21, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 21, 2020 On 16/08/2020 at 13:10, Crisis Rail said: Yes - I and some others are fast approaching pensionable age Some of us are past pensionable age but exhibitions aren't the most important item on my agenda, what will be will be. 6 hours ago, Phil Parker said: You can make the aisles as wide as you like, but it's frontage that matters. People will crowd around the scenic section of the layouts with their sweaty hands all over the barriers. Smaller layouts with spaces between them wouldn't help, and could make things worse as they crowd around the scenic areas. At least with the long layout you can spread out a bit. You can put one layout on a football pitch and still only have the same viewable frontage. As Phil says, this is a linear problem not volumetric. Mike. 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve howe Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 3 hours ago, gr.king said: Don't you mean that they'll drape their beer gut over the barrier and use the rest of their slumped sweaty form to try try to shove the barrier right through the layout? Indeed, and lets not forget the BO and halitosis..... and like as not the said individual will then turn their back on the layout and proceed to expound in loud tones about 'another one of those layouts where nothing ever moves...' Do you know... I'm beginning to not miss exhibiting! Steve 2 1 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 1E BoY Posted August 21, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 21, 2020 Milton Keynes Exhibition 2021 - Cancelled Milton Keynes Model Railway Society has announced that their 2021 exhibition, scheduled for 20th /21st February, will not go ahead. Chairman Chris Hughes said “our two day show requires in excess of £9,000 advance payments for venue hire, hotel accommodation and publicity. Another risk is that the leisure centre we use is part of and operated by a local academy and the use of these for anything apart from school activities may not be possible by February next year. The event is funded entirely by the Society with no external sponsorship so even if restrictions on large public gatherings are lifted the level of attendance necessary to cover these costs could not be guaranteed. We consider this to be too great a risk to our funds so regrettably have taken the decision to cancel the 2021 exhibition but hope to be back again the following year on 12th/13th February 2022”. 11 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Happy Hippo Posted August 21, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 21, 2020 On 16/08/2020 at 11:37, Kaput said: You'd think by now people would just learn to assume everything is cancelled until they hear otherwise. They were thick at school, when they achieved their majority do you think they suddenly had a brain inserted? 1 4 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 70000 Britannia Posted August 22, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 22, 2020 (edited) On 20/08/2020 at 22:47, DutyDruid said: Strangely I have done, along with the possibility of using an empty M&S unit in a shopping centre when it looked like our usual venue might not be available a year or so back. All failed because eventually we ran up against a jobs-worth bean counter who couldn't see beyond the box s/he lived in. To be fair though, there are some good people out there who look kindly on the 3rd Sector and want us to succeed, Fareham Club once did a deal (late 90s/early noughties) where in the month before our exhibition we ran a mini exhibition in an empty shopping centre unit in Fareham Shopping Centre every weekend for free using layouts that weren't going to be at the main show. The idea came from the Centre Manager herself, we brought a bit of extra footfall into the centre and demonstrated that they were prepared to engage with the community, and we got free publicity in return; our gate shot up by over 50%. Then the Centre Manager changed and the new one not only said "no" but wanted to charge us back rent for the 3 years we had already had "free". The interesting thing is that I'm detecting a definite shift in the attitudes of "the system", the concept of office workers "working from home" to the extent that we now see would have been unthinkable a year ago and yet now... What I'm seeing and hearing is that a fundamental shift in attitude could happen and it may well favour people like ourselves who want to put on events for community good. Here's hoping... I thought that Farnham Club also ran some 'pop-ups' in the local shopping centre - we operated 29th Street Wharf at their exhibition last November. Excellent show and I thought , at the time, that they had been very innovative. It sounds like the pop-ups were a great idea - the show was certainly busy, right through to late Sunday afternoon. Clearly, out of the box thinking has to be explored, to re-invigorate our great hobby. Edited August 22, 2020 by 70000 Britannia Correction 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Dava Posted September 4, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 4, 2020 The GCR MD has stated that the annual model gala in June is unlikely to resume for safety & financial viability reasons. This was staged in large marquees at Quorn, the last in 2019. The other prime shows in the East Midlands are/were Soar Valley, Derby and Newark (Lincoln & District) plus the valued scale-specific events. It will be interesting to see what (if any) events are able to take place in 2021, the Derby College venue not being available for the Derby show in 2021. Dava 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Brady Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 Morning Now that is sad , one of the best weekends for watching big and small trains , 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 I noticed yesterday that WHO don't think that a vaccine will be available until mid 2021. I think that shows are impractical without a vaccine so I think it is doubtful that there will be any next year. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 I think we need to stop thinking about when a vaccine will be available. The more appropriate route is how do we reintroduce mass participation events safely, a vaccine will be a bonus. Been on a train today, that was strange, had to have a reservation but it all worked out, that was Darlington to Newcastle with LNER. Now after a lovely walk by the river I am sat in a Starbucks mask off enjoying a latte. 3 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 (edited) I don't think you can have mass participation events safely without a vaccine. Certainly not indoors and even outdoor events like cricket etc will not be safe IMO which is why I'm not going to air displays this weekend . Shame really, but that's the way things are at present. Edited September 5, 2020 by PenrithBeacon 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 1 hour ago, PenrithBeacon said: I don't think you can have mass participation events safely without a vaccine. Certainly not indoors and even outdoor events like cricket etc will not be safe IMO which is why I'm not going to air displays this weekend . Shame really, but that's the way things are at present. This winter will be the big test. If deaths and hospitalisations remain low it will become unsustainable to keep life of hold for the majority, and with that will come more freedome of exhibitions and mass gatherings. Let's face it, model railway exhibitions are not really the nation's priority but if there are no pop festivals or big events like Wimbledon next year then people will get restless. The idea that without a vaccine we would never have mass participation events again is fanciful - one people have assimilated the risks life will go on and we are social beings. 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium John M Upton Posted September 5, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 5, 2020 Oh dear, it's those negative waves again.... Let's try and focus on the positive please. If you look around, other than mask wearing and a few shields here and there, a lot of places seem to be pretty much back to normal. 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meatloaf Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 Saw this posted on facebook just now Sad news coming through this morning that another event has been hit by a break-in and traders have lost stalls Brecon toy fair in Wales last night was targeted . At this moment in time it is unknown what was taken but diecast toys and trains are the usual things Its been a difficult year so far for traders Please be mindful of Goods sold on various Auction Sites etc within the Next Couple of Weeks ... 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 11 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said: I noticed yesterday that WHO don't think that a vaccine will be available until mid 2021. A vaccine needs to pass many tests & be mass produced. There are plenty of chances for complications, all of which would cause a delay. Testing is the biggest concern: Supposing something is created that works. How long would it take to be 100% sure it has no long term side-effect? Things like this could be dangerous if it is rushed. Any credible scientist would refuse to give an estimate on how long it will take to get a vaccine available because when it isn't on time, someone somewhere will dig out their quote about it. An availability date for a vaccine at this time is therefore complete nonsense to feed the media. Take no notice of it. We had similar estimates to this in the 1970s from management about when the APT would be in service, but it never happened. 9 hours ago, woodenhead said: I think we need to stop thinking about when a vaccine will be available. The more appropriate route is how do we reintroduce mass participation events safely, a vaccine will be a bonus. Absolutely. We can't wait for something which may not happen. If & when a vaccine becomes available, this will be a bonus. Until then, we need to manage without. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 But we're not managing without; c62,000 excess deaths and counting. That's not managing. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted September 5, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 5, 2020 59 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said: Absolutely. We can't wait for something which may not happen. If & when a vaccine becomes available, this will be a bonus. Until then, we need to manage without. I can! I've learned to deal with this (lack of) lifestyle and reckon I can keep it up for a couple of years if necessary. What may be a little more tricky, will be switching it off when I do judge it appropriate to do so. John 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Hayter Posted September 5, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 5, 2020 2 hours ago, meatloaf said: Saw this posted on facebook just now Sad news coming through this morning that another event has been hit by a break-in and traders have lost stalls Brecon toy fair in Wales last night was targeted . At this moment in time it is unknown what was taken but diecast toys and trains are the usual things Its been a difficult year so far for traders Please be mindful of Goods sold on various Auction Sites etc within the Next Couple of Weeks ... Sad news indeed but nothing to do with exhibition cancellations. I would suggest to get better coverage it should be reposted as a separate item. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RANGERS Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 Interesting that there seems to be a strong suggestion here that the future of shows has a heavy reliance on a vaccine. This isn’t something which is quite so apparent in other areas of leisure, our local eateries did a good trade during August, granted with some Govt aid, but it did intrigue me that a high proportion of the diners were in the over 55 bracket who are most definitely at highest risk and allegedly too scared to go out. The measures taken to implement safe operating practices in this sector appear to have given enough customer confidence to get the over 55s back, but I don’t see anyone looking at practices to increase to confidence in exhibitions. The default is to cancel and wait for a vaccine. Vaccines for any illness take an age to develop and even given the extraordinary pressures behind this one, won’t produce a meaningful result for some time. On this basis, we could be looking at 2025 before a vaccination regime alone offers a significant reduction in infection rates when safe working, and more critically strict adherence to them, have already made great strides in reducing the risk of infection. Have any show organisers looked at practical measures which would allow shows to take place? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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