Exhibition cancellations (not much to do with that anymore!)

[bart2day]

3 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Logistically a nightmare - at 10:55 you have to clear the hall(s) completely and then let in the next lot - I would reckon on half an hour for that and then there are the economics of how many tickets need to be sold to at the very least break even  and how many people are going to want to travel a long way for a couple of hours 3:30 to 5:30.

 

I can see merits in your idea - perhaps the entrance time but you're probably going to need to price according to time of day to make the later slots attractive and then make the earlier slots more expensive.

 

Fair enough. I guess lots of things seem like a good idea in theory but in practice probably wouldn’t work. This is what I worry about come 7pm Sunday when Boris lays out his roadmap; that it will sound good in theory but reality will hit home soon after about the logistics of many plans.

Edited May 8, 2020 by bart2day

[JohnDMJ]

 

5 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Logistically a nightmare - at 10:55 you have to clear the hall(s) completely and then let in the next lot - I would reckon on half an hour for that and then there are the economics of how many tickets need to be sold to at the very least break even  and how many people are going to want to travel a long way for a couple of hours 3:30 to 5:30.

 

I can see merits in your idea - perhaps the entrance time but you're probably going to need to price according to time of day to make the later slots attractive and then make the earlier slots more expensive.

 

Then you stifle those who buy tickets for all days of a more than one day show such as Warley.

[Chris M]

I wouldn't want to be an exhibitor until new Covid cases are somewhere near zero. Its alright for visitors who have a choice as to where they walk but exhibitors and traders have to stay where they are and have everyone in the exhibition walk past them. I can't see many folk being willing to be an exhibitor until the situation has improved a lot.  Maybe a massive perspex screen between operators and visitors? There may be no more exhibitions this year - I would say its about 50-50 for shows from October onwards but non of us know.

 

I am optimistic that when things do open up safely, and eventually  they will, exhibitions will do very well. We've been starved of our fix for some time and will need to make up for it. 

Edited May 9, 2020 by Chris M

[sb67]

38 minutes ago, Chris M said:

I wouldn't want to be an exhibitor until new Covid cases are somewhere near zero. Its alright for visitors who have a choice as to where they walk but exhibitors and traders have to stay where they are and have everyone in the exhibition walk past them. I can't see many folk being willing to be an exhibitor until the situation has improved a lot.  Maybe a massive perspex screen between operators and visitors? There may be no more exhibitions this year - I would say its about 50-50 for shows from October onwards but non of us know.

 

I am optimistic that when things do open up safely, and eventually  they will, exhibitions will do very well. We've been starved of our fix for some time and will need to make up for it. 

 

That's an interesting view point Chris. I've been wondering about when the next exhibition will be and I was clinging on to a show in September that may or may not go ahead. I guess it's all about distancing at show's which, if you see the scrum at some traders and second hand stalls is nigh on impossible. If there's no more show's this year then so be it. I'd rather attend a show where everybody feels safe and relaxed and can enjoy it. 

[NHY 581]

Chris makes a very valid point. 

 

My layouts that I take to exhibitions are small. The largest being 10ft long, the other two being 7ft. 

 

The scenic areas are 4ft long on each and with one exception, I have never had or asked for barriers in front of the layout. In fact, when I did get given barriers it caused more issues than operating without them.  

Our hobby, especially at exhibitions, thrives on communication. People ask questions, exhibitors describe techniques,exchange information, catch up with friends and aquantances. People like to get close and see for themselves.

 

I operate my layouts from the front and normally on my own.  Therefore I am rubbing shoulders with visitors as I chat and operate for a period of some six hours per day once the doors open. 

 

How would screens affect this? 

 

I think the idea of these perspex screens, whilst a valid question,  would be a non starter for all but the most affluent of exhibitions and even then would they want to do it?

 

The use of screens will not do away with the need to social distance amongst visitors. 

 

Additional space will be required  for screens along with  the need to social distance. It all contributes to reducing the space for layouts/traders which when added to a probable reduced capacity it's even less viable/attractive/possible. 

 

It's not giving up but the practicalities and above all, the  need to ensure the safety of all concerned override everything else. 

 

Rob. 

 

 

[Stubby47]

Maybe we need to think a little wider...

 

What if a hosting club/group were to provide each potential exhibitor with a camera/microphone and set up a website to host the event.

 

Each exhibitor sets up their layout at home/clubroom with the camera.

 

Visitors pay a small fee, online, to get access to the layout 'channels' where they are then able to chat with each exhibitor as they wish.

 

The hall hosting fees are removed, any layout can be invited and social distancing is achieved.

Edited May 9, 2020 by Stubby47

[roundhouse]

I am not sure if this has been mentioned before on this thread after having a brief look , so my apologies if I have missed it.

 

As an exhibitor  for over 30 years often doing 20+ shows a year (until the last few years)  we often have up to five of us as crew, mainly due to often driving to a venue on the first day of opening, requiring all 5 to help unload and set up in two hours before opening (avoiding the M25 on a Friday night and reducing overnight accommodation costs). The boards are 3 or 4 foot long  so no way we can social distance by 2m unloading or setting up. So this is an issue even before any public come into the venue.

 

My current layout which is under construction will eventually have some sort of automation and not a huge amount of stock so that may be possible to exhibit with just me and my other half but will require a lot of testing and a number of shows to make sure  the automation does work in a show environment but its first show in September has been cancelled and only has one more invite for this year with no gaurantee that any shows will go ahead as of yet.

 

I am missing the shows we should have been attending with various layouts, with a few invites not yet cancelled for this year and if deemed safe, we will attend but only if our helpers also feel safe to do so.

[TEAMYAKIMA]

I apologise for being so negative, but I feel some who have posted here are in denial.

 

We are told that social distancing is the only thing that is keeping this virus under control and most people seem to agree, There is social distancing now and circa 600 people a day are dying.  No social distancing = a lot more deaths.

 

Until there is a readily available vaccine and/or a cheap & easy cure that remains true.

 

I accept that eventually there will be a point where certain people HAVE to return to work because otherwise the economy will collapse.

 

But there is a big difference between doing something and accepting it's a health risk because you have to do it and doing something which you accept is a health risk which is optional.

 

 

[woodenhead]

37 minutes ago, roundhouse said:

As an exhibitor  for over 30 years often doing 20+ shows a year (until the last few years)  we often have up to five of us as crew, mainly due to often driving to a venue on the first day of opening, requiring all 5 to help unload and set up in two hours before opening (avoiding the M25 on a Friday night and reducing overnight accommodation costs). The boards are 3 or 4 foot long  so no way we can social distance by 2m unloading or setting up. So this is an issue even before any public come into the venue.

 

For people returning to the office PPE is being suggested, perhaps that would be how exhibitions would also have to go - for the exhibitors and the great hoard.

 

But on the other hand - if there is a need for basic PPE and exhibiting a model railway isn't a financial necessity - how many people will want to put themselves at risk by exhibiting.

 

To me if I have to wear a mask because there is a risk then I think I would stay away from activities I don't have to do - I don't have to go into an office, I don't have to go somewhere on public transport, I don't have to go to an exhibition.  But, if shopping restrictions are eased through the use of a mask I would be willing to wear a mask rather then continue to queue to get in places.

[RJS1977]

3 minutes ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

I apologise for being so negative, but I feel some who have posted here are in denial.

 

We are told that social distancing is the only thing that is keeping this virus under control and most people seem to agree, There is social distancing now and circa 600 people a day are dying.  No social distancing = a lot more deaths.

 

Until there is a readily available vaccine and/or a cheap & easy cure that remains true.

 

I accept that eventually there will be a point where certain people HAVE to return to work because otherwise the economy will collapse.

 

But there is a big difference between doing something and accepting it's a health risk because you have to do it and doing something which you accept is a health risk which is optional.

 

 

 

As long as the reproduction rate remains below 1, the number of people contracting the virus will decrease, as will those who have it (as the number recovering or dying will outnumber the number contracting it). Eventually the number of people with the virus will reach a more controllable level.

 

Two weeks ago, the number of deaths a day was hovering around 800, now it's down to 600. By the middle of next month, I would expect that the number of daily deaths will be down to double figures.

[TEAMYAKIMA]

2 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

 

As long as the reproduction rate remains below 1, the number of people contracting the virus will decrease, as will those who have it (as the number recovering or dying will outnumber the number contracting it). Eventually the number of people with the virus will reach a more controllable level.

 

Two weeks ago, the number of deaths a day was hovering around 800, now it's down to 600. By the middle of next month, I would expect that the number of daily deaths will be down to double figures.

 

I refer you to my previous statement

[Mr.S.corn78]

I've been reading through the replies with interest and to be honest there is no right or wrong answer.

 

Having been an exhibtion manger I know the cost involved and having cancelled a show due to the weather, yes not a virus but still cancelled and lost about £2000 due to costs already paid out. i think putting on a show at the moment and I think for the rest of the year is highly unlikely.

 

By the time you have factored in the extra distance between the layouts, then the barriers being 2 meters away from the front of the layout, as you need access to the front of the layout to sort any derailments etc then the public would be a long way away to see the models on the layouts. Then I would guess the host club has to put screens up like the supermarkets, so thats added exspence which comes out of any profit/club funds.

 

Plus you have the venue, Quite a lot of shows are held in schools and I know from being married to a teacher that her school has 4 rooms open, main hall where lessons are being taught, kids toliet, staff room and the staff toliet and the rest of the school closed off to try and prevent having to deep clean the school. I doubt the school would welcome extra people visiting to come to a show. Also some are open at weekends to prvide care for key wrokers kids which then opens up the whole DBS checks etc.

 

I know we are all missing the shows, I know I am and I had 10 shows to exhibit/demo at and most have been cancelled but the sensible thing to do is put them on hold and wait till next year when we can all hopfully start attending the shows again and catching up with friends.

[woodenhead]

18 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

 

As long as the reproduction rate remains below 1, the number of people contracting the virus will decrease, as will those who have it (as the number recovering or dying will outnumber the number contracting it). Eventually the number of people with the virus will reach a more controllable level.

 

Two weeks ago, the number of deaths a day was hovering around 800, now it's down to 600. By the middle of next month, I would expect that the number of daily deaths will be down to double figures.

I am sure also that other infectious illnesses are also down at the moment and for one very good reason - most of us are staying the heck away from each other - you cannot pass something on if you don't meet many people to pass it to.

 

The death rate is like a wave, that builds behind the infection rate - the more infections the more deaths, reduce infections and deaths will result too - the death rate in care homes is an example of what happens when people don't or can't socially distance and why it continued climbing after hospital deaths began to drop.   That too will drop through the result of intervention and sadly because they are closed environments; with no new people entering those locations then the infection has nowhere else to go.

 

What is a concern despite being brushed off by certain world leaders is what happens if this illness mutates and we get a second wave.  

 

When you read about Spanish Flu and how it spread and measures taken in a much less connected world than today and you see why people are being asked to stay apart

https://www.history.com/topics/world-war-i/1918-flu-pandemic

[NHY 581]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

 

 

When you read about Spanish Flu and how it spread and measures taken in a much less connected world than today and you see why people are being asked to stay apart

https://www.history.com/topics/world-war-i/1918-flu-pandemic

 

 

What history does demonstrate is our inability to learn from history............

 

Rob. 

[PaulRhB]

14 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

 

 

What history does demonstrate is our inability to learn from history............

 

Rob. 

Taking the Spanish Flu of 1918 as an example the second wave was the most severe, mostly because people relied on the very dodgy protection measures over simple minimal contact. We are still learning about covid but far more informed on the basics of transmission but human impatience wins out in decision making and most of the current lockdown breaches are for leisure NOT because someone needs to make a living!!

Screens etc are a non starter as to be big enough they will be a nightmare to store without scratching and ruining them and the cost to buy plus transporting them would make most abandon exhibiting. My Harz has a 44 foot frontage, no way I’m screening that without a extra van for the screens and god knows what cost!

 

4 hours ago, Stubby47 said:

Maybe we need to think a little wider...

 

What if a hosting club/group were to provide each potential exhibitor with a camera/microphone and set up a website to host the event.

 

Each exhibitor sets up their layout at home/clubroom with the camera.

 

Visitors pay a small fee, online, to get access to the layout 'channels' where they are then able to chat with each exhibitor as they wish.

 

The hall hosting fees are removed, any layout can be invited and social distancing is achieved.

Having done a couple of Zoom video chats including the NGSouth’ish I don’t think many people’s technological understanding is up to it  

It took several hours to sort out my 80+ father on zoom trying to talk him through it because I couldn’t see what he had on screen and he wasn’t good at explaining what he saw or not ploughing on and missing out relevant details!! It was only once I insisted he not press anything until he’d read all the options to me that we stopped him heading off in random dead ends!

 

[PaulRhB]

This whole thing is incredibly frustrating because we are so used to someone having the answers. Yes it’s hurting financially and mentally but as the clapping and online camaraderie show we can counter half that with a little imagination. The financial side and implications to those in sectors now seeing huge redundancies, and no alternative similar waged jobs to replace them, is far more worrying for the next 6-12 months as the mental stress of no or vastly reduced income bites. 
We’re worrying about an exhibition and those in the airline and holiday industries are looking at little work and no new jobs in their sectors for at least the same period. 
With our new 14 day air quarantine you’d need 5 weeks off for a week away!

If anyone holds a show before the additional risk is absolutely minimal they are highly likely to get sued and I reckon getting insurance will be virtually impossible if you tried to cover that! 
Shows will be back but we won’t know when until the science catches up.
 

Patience is in short supply these days from ALL age groups thanks to the expectations of instant internet information. Maybe that’s what we should be working on rather than the ways around the current restrictions?  

[CloggyDog]

Just had notification via the Wycombe Club's Facebook page that Wycrail on 7th November has been cancelled. 

 

https://m.facebook.com/events/2440630566190548?view=permalink&id=2533020636951540

 

 

[Phil Parker]

4 hours ago, woodenhead said:

When you read about Spanish Flu and how it spread and measures taken in a much less connected world than today and you see why people are being asked to stay apart

 

However, this was 100 years ago and I believe medical science and communications have improved more than a little in that period. We also aren't a population recovering from the ravages of war with the associated malnutrition and poor health. While it's not reason to be complacent, constantly being told about Spanish flu (at least once a day on various social media) is missing several points.

 

1 hour ago, PaulRhB said:

This whole thing is incredibly frustrating because we are so used to someone having the answers. Yes it’s hurting financially and mentally but as the clapping and online camaraderie show we can counter half that with a little imagination. The financial side and implications to those in sectors now seeing huge redundancies, and no alternative similar waged jobs to replace them, is far more worrying for the next 6-12 months as the mental stress of no or vastly reduced income bites. 
We’re worrying about an exhibition and those in the airline and holiday industries are looking at little work and no new jobs in their sectors for at least the same period. 

 

This is a model railway forum so it's not a surprise that we talk about the implications of show cancellations. After all, they do have a financial impact on many traders. That's not to say the airline industry is being ignored, but I'm sure those in hospitality and other industries also likely never to recover would also like a bit of thought. We, on this forum, can't fix everything though.

[Mr.S.corn78]

2 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

However, this was 100 years ago and I believe medical science and communications have improved more than a little in that period. We also aren't a population recovering from the ravages of war with the associated malnutrition and poor health. While it's not reason to be complacent, constantly being told about Spanish flu (at least once a day on various social media) is missing several points.

 

Phil,

 

I think its more to try and get those in society that still think its ok to go out as a group or have a 200 mile round trip to go fishing, Something to think about and a real warning of a possible second wave that could be more deadly than the first.

 

Yes we have better medical provison etc but history has a case of repeating its self sometimes.

[PaulRhB]

37 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

This is a model railway forum so it's not a surprise that we talk about the implications of show cancellations. After all, they do have a financial impact on many traders. That's not to say the airline industry is being ignored, but I'm sure those in hospitality and other industries also likely never to recover would also like a bit of thought. We, on this forum, can't fix everything though.

No but it can give a little perspective that maybe we need to be a little more patient and stop forecasting Armageddon in the show part of the hobby when we don’t know the new normal yet. A lot of money could be spent on screens etc and found to be clutter in 12 months when it could be spent within the hobby on a project to be ready in a year or two to show what we did with our lockdown  

 

We mentioned the impact on traders on the previous page and how important shows are as an advert. We can help our traders by spreading our buying around them and the forum is an excellent way to spread the reputation and who’s got what. I’ve ordered from a shop recommended on here this week that has minimal online presence and no webshop, probably as a result it still had what’s been bought out everywhere else online

I’ve popped into a few shops previously and at their online shops recently as a result of mentions on here or their updates on what’s available. We can support the regular show traders we see by contacting them to see if they have the stuff we want over general web searches. 
 
Maybe on cancelled shows threads the organisers could list the traders with links or phone numbers and a brief description of what they trade in to say thanks for their intended support? Get the exhibitors to send in photos and post them and have a mini show like we did with the members day and NGsouth on the NG forum. 

 

Getting a web shop up and running may now be a high priority for some with the possible length of lockdown so maybe thinking of ways we can help with their ‘exposure’ can ensure they are still there once we know what the future rules are?
 

[woodenhead]

49 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

However, this was 100 years ago and I believe medical science and communications have improved more than a little in that period. We also aren't a population recovering from the ravages of war with the associated malnutrition and poor health. While it's not reason to be complacent, constantly being told about Spanish flu (at least once a day on various social media) is missing several points.

How germs and viruses operate hasn't changed that much since 1918 - they have quite effective methods of distribution honed over millions of years.  Whilst we now have better drugs to help us it's still the same constant battle of staying ahead of the curve and anticipating the next pandemic.

 

Spanish flu hit at just the right time because it was the end of the First World War and thousands of hosts were moving about the world to get home from service - so it had a very effective distribution channel to direct itself around the globe.  Here in the 21st Century our ever so connected world with metal tubes flying all around it has created another environment where a new strain of virus can spread itself quickly and effortlessly which it did taking advantage (unknowingly, I don't assign intelligence to the virus unlike the Donald) of people moving within and outside of China for New Year and once it got out of Wuhan it was unstoppable.

 

Covid is not flu but it is a respiratory virus and so will behave in a similar manner to spread itself.

 

Not enough is known about Covid to know it's long term implications for us, but there are multiple strains already, this shows it can alter according to it's environment, it only takes one mutation to become a mass killer and we don't yet know how much protection we get from having been exposed to it or if a vaccine is 6 weeks, months or years away.

 

I think Spanish Flu is a lesson to us still, had China been more open at the beginning, had borders been closed around the world and fast protocols effected to stop the spread perhaps it would have gone away in Wuhan but in typical human fashion we botched our chance through political interference hiding the truth until it was too late and then complacency that we could simply weather it out.  So Spanish Flu just demonstrates that even when faced with obvious similarities we don't act quickly to quell the impact, we lie, we sit on our hands and when we do act the horse is in the next country let alone out of the stable door.

[woodenhead]

One thing that might help exhibitions restart - I've noticed now in supermarkets variations on a theme to further isolate people at checkouts - not only the screen by the checkout assistant but also screens(Sainsburys) or plastic curtains (Aldi) on the other side.

 

Perhaps we might have to protect the exhibitors with plastic screens so that aren't being breathed on all day at exhibitions, allied with masks for the hoards that might increase capacity - it would increase cost and we'd need to cover that in entrance fees but it may be a way back.

[Phil Parker]

12 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Not enough is known about Covid to know it's long term implications for us, but there are multiple strains already, this shows it can alter according to it's environment, it only takes one mutation to become a mass killer and we don't yet know how much protection we get from having been exposed to it or if a vaccine is 6 weeks, months or years away.

 

Which rather makes my point - research is a lot faster and more efficient than 100 years ago. We have much more information about how a disease works and how to handle it. We can look at history and learn, but loads of amateur virologists pronouncing everywhere on the web, especially on Twitter, that things will be exactly the same is getting on my nerves.

 

And yes, I know I should simply set this thread to ignore as I've done with every other Coronavirus thread on RMweb - that's the next job.

[PaulRhB]

28 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Perhaps we might have to protect the exhibitors with plastic screens so that aren't being breathed on all day at exhibitions,

 

41 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

A lot of money could be spent on screens etc and found to be clutter in 12 months when it could be spent within the hobby 

Price up the screens and I think you’ll be baulking at the cost to be passed on  

 

I’d suggest spending that money with traders locally and on here in support of the hobby. I doubt many clubs rely on their show for rents so I don’t think many shows are in crisis, just hibernation. It’s the traders who need our support, pull out an old show guide and see if any listed is worth a call or look online. 

Edited May 9, 2020 by PaulRhB

[woodenhead]

17 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Which rather makes my point - research is a lot faster and more efficient than 100 years ago. We have much more information about how a disease works and how to handle it. We can look at history and learn, but loads of amateur virologists pronouncing everywhere on the web, especially on Twitter, that things will be exactly the same is getting on my nerves.

 

And yes, I know I should simply set this thread to ignore as I've done with every other Coronavirus thread on RMweb - that's the next job.

If we'd learnt the lessons of Spanish flu, then we would not be locked down now.

 

History teaches us lessons, lessons to be learnt.

 

I don't doubt immunologists and medical researchers know a lot more about viruses now, but viruses still transmit in the same way they did 100 years ago because it is very effective yet we still get colds, the flu and in this case Covid.