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Exhibition cancellations (not much to do with that anymore!)


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1 hour ago, Andy Hayter said:

Gilbert

+7  a good dose of realism.  If we cannot organise the opening of schools before September (and no criticism of anyone in that statement) then opening an exhibition a few months further on is not going to be easy.    How wide might aisles have to be?  How much space between layouts/trade stands?  How to control (or not) the numbers present?  Meals/refreshments for exhibitors or even visitors?

If you cannot calculate how many layouts you can accommodate, you don't know how many traders to invite.  You might have to have extra barriers to enforce a one way system and stewards to ensure it is followed.

I would not want to ba an exhibition manager at this time - and I have been one in the past.

Indeed - I just knocked off a quick list without actually any Covid specific measures - I also have no insight into how insurers will see things in the near future.

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3 hours ago, Mr.S.corn78 said:

Hi Chris,

 

I'm guess by your second line 'I imagine' that you have never organised or been in an organsing team for a show?

 

 

You are incredibly far off the mark there.  I've had and still do have a huge involvement with organising exhibitions, especially the financial side of them. All things such as venue and hotel deposits can be negotiated and layout expenses are paid after the event. 

It really is as simple as when new cases drop below a certain level for a certain length of time then social distancing will not be required and exhibitions can go ahead. Until that happens exhibitions can't happen.  We may get to this point by November or we may not, nobody can predict this. Unless the venue owner is being unreasonable about deposit terms there is no need to cancel just yet. 

Wouldn't it be great to be the first safe exhibition since covid?

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56 minutes ago, Chris M said:

You are incredibly far off the mark there.  I've had and still do have a huge involvement with organising exhibitions, especially the financial side of them. All things such as venue and hotel deposits can be negotiated and layout expenses are paid after the event. 

It really is as simple as when new cases drop below a certain level for a certain length of time then social distancing will not be required and exhibitions can go ahead. Until that happens exhibitions can't happen.  We may get to this point by November or we may not, nobody can predict this. Unless the venue owner is being unreasonable about deposit terms there is no need to cancel just yet. 

Wouldn't it be great to be the first safe exhibition since covid?

 

Hi Chris,

 

I stand corrected then on my assumstion.

 

Just out of curiosty can I ask which show you are involved with?

 

As being involved you will know that you have to make sure you cover your full costs and it doesn't matter if you pay out for them before, during or after a show you still need to know the figures involved to break even other wise you may end up running the show at a loss.

 

We will just have to differ on our views of when it will be the right time to cancel a show and yes it may be the case that come November it may be safe to be stand 1 ft away from someone but when you are possible risking thousands of pounds that have to be paid months in advance for me and many other organisors that I know its a too bigger risk to take with someone elses money.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Mr.S.corn78 said:

ps ive just seen Nickwoods post about the motorbike show being cancelled, I would expect Warey to have the same decision but that is for them to decide upon and not me.

 

The motorcycle show is a much bigger event than Warley and everyone taking part will incur far greater costs. I suspect that the budget for a single manufacturers stand will be more then that for an entire model railway show. That's not to say Warley won't be looking at it, but the events are very different beasts even if they do take place in the same building.

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35 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

  6 hours ago, Mr.S.corn78 said:

ps ive just seen Nickwoods post about the motorbike show being cancelled, I would expect Warey to have the same decision but that is for them to decide upon and not me.

 

The motorcycle show is a much bigger event than Warley and everyone taking part will incur far greater costs. I suspect that the budget for a single manufacturers stand will be more then that for an entire model railway show. That's not to say Warley won't be looking at it, but the events are very different beasts even if they do take place in the same building.

 

Exactly, and why I didn't speculate about Warley.

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14 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

The motorcycle show is a much bigger event than Warley and everyone taking part will incur far greater costs. I suspect that the budget for a single manufacturers stand will be more then that for an entire model railway show. That's not to say Warley won't be looking at it, but the events are very different beasts even if they do take place in the same building.

I think you have hot the nail on the head there. The manufacturers at the motorcycle show will need to be spending money developing their stand design specially for this show now. Even the big manufacturers in our hobby will be using the stand they already have.

 

I'm sure there isn't much happening at the moment regarding late 2020 shows for our hobby. I expect the National Festival of Railway Modelling, like most others, is in a bit of a state of limbo. The exhibitors are all arranged but you can't really go too big on publicity at the moment. Neither Warley or Peterborough advance tickets are on sale at the moment which is sensible but all that means is nobody can be sure either of these shows will be on.

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Unfortunately the exhibition managers are in an impossible position as no one can predict what may happen and can only react to current information, which may change tomorrow. Taking the opening schools as an example, the 'plan / wish' by government was to get as many children back to school as possible, yet the practicalities of doing this has now forced a change, effectively pushing back until September. Until we get into September, no one can predict what will happen. How can an exhibition manager hope to plan and ensure that sufficient numbers of visitors, let alone complying with 'safe working', be that 'social distancing / face masks', coming through the door. Which layouts do they cancel to create more space? Are the layout owners comfortable / feel safe enough to bring their layout?

 

Added to this is the 'second wave' - whether this will happen, no one knows.

 

I, like may others are disappointed that the likelihood of any exhibitions during 2020 and indeed into early 2021 occurring is slim, we all have to be sure that our activities can be carried out in a safe and sensible manner and without the organising clubs taking a financial risk. It is hard enough to organise a model railway exhibition, without the added concerns that we all face.

 

As a slight aside, I was listening to the organiser of the Download Festival (Rock festival at Donnington Park, for those who don't know), where they have upwards of 80 bands playing over three days on Planet Rock today. They took the decision to cancel the event earlier this year, and took a team of people at least two weeks to cancel everything and that was even before contacting the bands. I appreciate that a model railway exhibition is nothing on this scale, but to cancel a show will take quite a long time to action.

 

 

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missed a 'be'!
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2 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

The motorcycle show is a much bigger event than Warley and everyone taking part will incur far greater costs. I suspect that the budget for a single manufacturers stand will be more then that for an entire model railway show. That's not to say Warley won't be looking at it, but the events are very different beasts even if they do take place in the same building.

 

I totally agree that they are different beasts and the costs will be very different hence why they have taken the decision now but the possible restrictions that would/maybe in place at the time would be the same for both shows as they would be venue lead not organisor lead.

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11 hours ago, Chris M said:

 

Cancellation of exhibitions can happen within a few weeks of the planned date without problem. With the exception of a venue deposit and a bit of leaflet printing or advertising there no major costs incurred months before an exhibition. 

 

 

There is no point in advertising an exhibition which may not go ahead and it would be reckless to place adverts if you were unsure. As well as the big Derby Show, we also organise a small show in the village hall in early October which only has club layouts or those from members so very little cost there. We don't spend a lot on advertising - a couple of hundred pounds in the local paper the week before so that would only be done if the show went ahead.

 

However we have found that the most important place to advertise is the free diary entry in the Railway Modeller. A few years ago for some reason this was missed and we had a very noticeable reduction in the number of visitors. Depending on the date of your show, and the publication date of the Modeller, you need to be able to confirm it is going ahead at least two months before the due date - unlike some magazines, as far as I am aware Modeller still need at least 6 weeks notice to place an item on their diary page.

 

So for our show in October, we need to decide in July - as it is the committee has already decided to cancel - almost all of the members are in the 'more at risk' category and the ladies who volunteer in the tea rooms are even older !!

 

Mike

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Difficult times. All you can do is decide on the last possible date you can make a decision and make the decision on that day. You also need two plans for exactly what has to be done and by who following the decision because there will be a lot of things to do on a short time either way.

 

I always find hotels are a pain to deal with; they always seem to be trying to squeeze the punter in what ever way they can. I well remember booking a significant number of rooms at a hotel only to be told that the price was high because there was an event on that weekend . It was our event and the only reason they were busy was because of my booking! I was forced to accept their price but never used that hotel again. If you decide to cancel I would push them for something on the basis of future repeat business.  Not sure what the chances of success are. 

 

I don't know how much you pay for flyers but Solopress will do 10,000 A5 single sided colour flyers for £97.70. I've used them quite a few times and am happy with them.

 

I found putting a copy of the flyer on Facebook, sharing it with friends and fellow club members and then asking everyone to share it and ask everyone who receives it to also share it worked well. I also put it on the local area Facebook groups.  The great thing about this form of spreading the word is that it is hitting the target audience (modellers and locals) and totally free.

 

Best wishes to all those involved in organising an exhibition in these difficult times.

 

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9 hours ago, Chris M said:

and layout expenses are paid after the event. 


Not in my experience. However as someone who has to hire a van to take my layout to a show, I’m usually looking at £150-200 for Fri-Monday morning. Whilst occasionally I do waive or significantly reduce the expenses I ask for it’s not always practical. 
If a post C19 show doesn’t get the footfall to cover layout expenses, I doubt the ‘show’ community would be happy to swallow their costs more than once. For those that regularly exhibit a few times a year, those exhibitors could end up significantly out of pocket.

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Nearly all the local shows we have done , we have no payment for , usually there is no hint of money coming our way , our expenses would not be great anyway , plus you get a bacon roll , tea and lunch thrown in . Where this becomes an issue is a two day shows that we are / due to exhibit later this year with fuel costs  , hotels , (evening meals  paid by ourselves which can be pretty  expensive at the likes of Harvester , but that's our choice ) . As long as most of the expences are covered I would probably wave or reduce the likes of fuel , covering some of the cost ourselves  if this would help out the exhibitions get back to some sort of normality in the short term .

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51 minutes ago, Chris M said:

I found putting a copy of the flyer on Facebook, sharing it with friends and fellow club members and then asking everyone to share it and ask everyone who receives it to also share it worked well. I also put it on the local area Facebook groups.  The great thing about this form of spreading the word is that it is hitting the target audience (modellers and locals) and totally free.

 

Thanks Chris.

 

Much as most of us dislike contributing to the Mark Zuckerberg retirement fund, you're right, it does have a part to play.  Having referred to "upping our game on social media" in my last contribution I thought it might be worth sharing what we actually did.  We looked at our exhibitors and traders to see who had a presence for their layout or business on Twitter and Facebook, and more importantly here on RM Web, and then we looked to engage in their conversations, linking back to details of what else was attending the show.  It was quite complicated to fit together so that it didn't become obtrusive in other people's conversations BUT we did get feedback that it had brought a goodly number of extra feet to our door, so it was worth the effort and it certainly raised our profile.  We were planning to do the same this year.  Oh well...

 

The real problem is do we put the display ads out in the mags with a rider saying words to the effect of "please check with the Club website the weekend before for confirmation of whether the show is going ahead.  My view is "yes" but a lot of my colleagues are understandably not comfortable with that idea.

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7 hours ago, PMP said:


Not in my experience. However as someone who has to hire a van to take my layout to a show, I’m usually looking at £150-200 for Fri-Monday morning. Whilst occasionally I do waive or significantly reduce the expenses I ask for it’s not always practical. 
If a post C19 show doesn’t get the footfall to cover layout expenses, I doubt the ‘show’ community would be happy to swallow their costs more than once. For those that regularly exhibit a few times a year, those exhibitors could end up significantly out of pocket.

I've never heard of expenses being paid before a show. The usual is still to distribute cash on Sunday morning so you have time to spend this cash that your other half hasn't seen at the show. The latest sad trend is to pay by BACS a few weeks after the show - most inconvenient.

 

I can see post Covid-19 shows doing extremely well. Not having been to one since Leamington just before the lockdown I will be visiting more than usual when they do restart. 

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7 hours ago, bazjones1711 said:

Nearly all the local shows we have done , we have no payment for , usually there is no hint of money coming our way , our expenses would not be great anyway , plus you get a bacon roll , tea and lunch thrown in . Where this becomes an issue is a two day shows that we are / due to exhibit later this year with fuel costs  , hotels , (evening meals  paid by ourselves which can be pretty  expensive at the likes of Harvester , but that's our choice ) . As long as most of the expences are covered I would probably wave or reduce the likes of fuel , covering some of the cost ourselves  if this would help out the exhibitions get back to some sort of normality in the short term .

 

I think it all depends. I would never want or have expenses for a local show and have gone much further afield without expenses for some good causes. My next layout will require a small van so I will have to have expenses and probably wont go to many exhibitions. That's my expectation anyway. 

 

Taking a layout to an exhibition always leaves the owner slightly out of pocket. I find exhibition organisers are usually very good but of course you can't expect them to pay for your evening meal. We often head for the nearest Wetherspoons - steak and a pint for just over a tenner. The sticky floor comes for free!

 

 

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7 hours ago, DutyDruid said:

 

 

 

The real problem is do we put the display ads out in the mags with a rider saying words to the effect of "please check with the Club website the weekend before for confirmation of whether the show is going ahead.  My view is "yes" but a lot of my colleagues are understandably not comfortable with that idea.

I often wonder about adverts in magazines. You kind of have to have them but they are quite expensive and how many additional punters do they bring in? The problem is you can never tell what advertising is effective and what isn't. I use the UK model railways site for exhibition info and before that I used the "exhibition diary" of the mags to see what was on. I expect nearly all of us do the same. But then does seeing an ad in the corner of your eye as you quickly  flip through the ads plant a thought in your brain? Ads in four magazines are going to rack up those pre-exhibition expenses. 

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2 hours ago, Chris M said:

I've never heard of expenses being paid before a show. The usual is still to distribute cash on Sunday morning so you have time to spend this cash that your other half hasn't seen at the show. The latest sad trend is to pay by BACS a few weeks after the show - most inconvenient.


I never said or implied expenses were paid before a show.


In my experience it’s always occurred prior to doors closing on the last day.

 

Which shows pay by BACs after the show? I’ve not come across this (not heard of it prior to this), and its unlikely to be acceptable to many who pay expenses across the show team.

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28 minutes ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

 

Hello PMP,

 

I have no problem whatsoever with what you've said . but I think you have slightly misunderstood Chris M's point and visa versa.

 


With respect, nope. Chris M stated layout expenses were paid after a show.


In my experience of both small/large multi/single day shows over many years they are paid during a show.

 

On booking a layout I’ve always been asked to supply a cost estimate on our expected costs. Number of people, fuel, van hire, as the basic minimum to give X, the expenses figure for layout Y. If shows are not paying layout expenses as they have traditionally done before doors close, and are subsequently paying by BACs, it’d be interesting to see which shows these are. I’m unlikely to take a layout to one. The teams I work with are geographically dispersed, fuel costs are given to those requiring them on receiving agreed show expenses.

 

My concern is that if this (BACs) is true, a show which makes a loss might not pay an exhibitor some or all of their agreed expenses which the exhibitors have incurred. If this occurs to exhibitors a couple of times, then exhibitors won’t exhibit.

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The Great Electric Train Show and the Swindon Steam Museum both pay by BACS after the event . I think they both insist on VAT receipts for any expenses claimed. I have a feeling that The International N Gauge Show do as well but I am not absolutely sure; I know they are the tightest show in the country and don't even give you a cup of tea. My layout has been to all of these which is how I know .

 

From an organisers point of view I can see the point of insisting on VAT receipts for everything if your organisation is VAT registered. Paying cash out on the day also has some practical advantages for organisers. There is less cash from ticket sales to be taken home and then banked. This reduces security risks and  bank charges. Also you have helpers on hand during the exhibition to make up the expenses. For a club paying by BACS after the event means a lot of time working with online banking for the club treasurer. Not my idea of a good time. If you are a business, as on the case of the shows mentioned above then you are already employing staff to do your banking. And of course a business may lose out on a lot of money of it doesn't have the VAT receipts to claim VAT back from the government. It's horses for courses.

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7 minutes ago, Chris M said:

The Great Electric Train Show and the Swindon Steam Museum both pay by BACS after the event . I think they both insist on VAT receipts for any expenses claimed. I have a feeling that The International N Gauge Show do as well but I am not absolutely sure; I know they are the tightest show in the country and don't even give you a cup of tea. My layout has been to all of these which is how I know .

 

From an organisers point of view I can see the point of insisting on VAT receipts for everything if your organisation is VAT registered. Paying cash out on the day also has some practical advantages for organisers. There is less cash from ticket sales to be taken home and then banked. This reduces security risks and  bank charges. Also you have helpers on hand during the exhibition to make up the expenses. For a club paying by BACS after the event means a lot of time working with online banking for the club treasurer. Not my idea of a good time. If you are a business, as on the case of the shows mentioned above then you are already employing staff to do your banking. And of course a business may lose out on a lot of money of it doesn't have the VAT receipts to claim VAT back from the government. It's horses for courses.

If the organisation setting up the exhibition is a business then it will have to comply with all business rules when setting up the show - everything will go through the business accounting system so it is accounted for in line with HMRC requirements.  It is standard business practice to only pay out when you have to, you account for money in before you give any money out.

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It's perfectly ok for a business to receive cash for ticket sales, record it correctly and then pay some of that cash out as expenses, again fully recorded and with a signed receipt from the receiver of said expenses.

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5 hours ago, PMP said:


I never said or implied expenses were paid before a show.


In my experience it’s always occurred prior to doors closing on the last day.

 

Which shows pay by BACs after the show? I’ve not come across this (not heard of it prior to this), and its unlikely to be acceptable to many who pay expenses across the show team.

 

 

All I will say is Model Rail at Newark a few years ago:angry:

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8 hours ago, Chris M said:

I often wonder about adverts in magazines. You kind of have to have them but they are quite expensive and how many additional punters do they bring in? The problem is you can never tell what advertising is effective and what isn't. I use the UK model railways site for exhibition info and before that I used the "exhibition diary" of the mags to see what was on. I expect nearly all of us do the same. But then does seeing an ad in the corner of your eye as you quickly  flip through the ads plant a thought in your brain? Ads in four magazines are going to rack up those pre-exhibition expenses. 

 

When we first started to place display ads we did a lot of heart searching, several members (including a senior committee member) commented that they never looked at the display ads, only at the free listings and that therefore it was a waste of money.  The reality is that we think it did produce a boost of footfall. 

 

The "advice" we got from people who understood "marketing" was that if you place a well produced display ad with appropriate superlatives sprinkled on it it says that you have confidence in the quality of your event, sufficient confidence to warrant paying to advertise it in that way; that in turn means that it might be worth visiting.  The first year it will not produce much uplift but if it was a good show then word will get around and if you take the care to create a "recognisable brand" then in year 3 or 4 and beyond you will start to reap the benefit of your investment.

 

And the term "recognisable brand"?  Geoff Endacott once said to me that he thought the most important thing he had done with his show was to come up with the simple one-word name - Trainwest; that is a very recognisable brand and in a sense we have done the same by focussing on the term RailEx - first Wickham RailEx and now Fareham RailEx.  The first event at Wickham was organised in partnership with the Wessex Association and we viewed it as a proof of concept event, our first one away from the old TA Drill hall in Fareham.  For the second one we came up with the RailEx brand and I produced a display ad and flyers that had a watermarked Wickham Trolley on them; there was a definite up-swing in the tempo of the show.  Year 5, 1100 on the Saturday, and I was seriously worried that we might have to close the gate because of the crowding in the hall.  From there it has just been onwards and upwards.

 

 

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