Exhibition cancellations (not much to do with that anymore!)

[MarkSG]

6 hours ago, Wheres_Wally said:

It's probably safe to say there won't be any shows this year and probably most of next. If the trade can survive without them,  will any want the hassle of going back in the future? I doubt it. But without trade you can't run a show so I don't think shows will ever come back.

 

I'm certain shows will come back, eventually. I'm really missing being able to go to them, and I'm sure other people, are, too. So even if it has to be a phased return, starting with the smallest - a few layouts in a village hall, with minimal costs and minimal planning necessary - and then gradually increasing back up to the big ones which need a professional approach and lead times to match, it will happen.

 

As for trade support, that depends a lot on the nature of the traders. There are some regular box shifters that I see at most big shows I go to that I doubt could survive on online sales - it's a market that's already dominated by a few big players, and smaller operators need to have a notable USP to be able to break into it. The exhibitions are their bread and butter, and they're going to want to get back to it as far as possible. And the niche traders, while they may be able to successfully sell online, still rely on the shows as a form of advertising and getting to know their customer base.

 

Obviously, we won't be having shows again until social distancing guidelines have been completely, or almost completely, removed. It simply isn't practical to have a show without people being in close proximity to each other. So we are dependent on progress with defeating covid and, probably, the development of a vaccine. The optimistic viewpoint is that we'll be in that position later this year. The pessimistic one says it may not happen until the end of next year, or even beyond. But it will happen, eventually. Until then, all we can really do is wait.

[Pete the Elaner]

5 hours ago, Wheres_Wally said:

It's probably safe to say there won't be any shows this year and probably most of next. If the trade can survive without them,  will any want the hassle of going back in the future? I doubt it. But without trade you can't run a show so I don't think shows will ever come back.

 

It is safer to say you are very pessimistic.

 

It has only been 3 months since lockdown & cancellations began.

Progress has been made in fighting the virus in different ways & the number of infections has dropped a lot. Things have started to ease (small gatherings, shops, sports) & the government are talking about reducing the social distancing distance.

 

Yet you are predicting that we'll still be doomed for another 18 months & that shows will never return.

I don't share your pessimistic appraisal of the situation.

[newbryford]

If I was to take Wally's pessimistic view, (which I am not) then there would never be crowds at football matches, or music gigs ever again, never mind model railway shows.

And there are many other similar examples.

 

 

[Gwiwer]

Public events will be back.  

 

We can probably write off 2020 in most respects though some spectators may be able to attend sporting events later in the year.  Close social interaction seems to be off the agenda for the foreseeable future and how or when the review committee might determine future directives over the 2m advice remains to be seen. 

 

Certainly the language has changed.  The 2 metre "rule" apparently never was and has only ever been "advice" without legal backing.  Depending upon where you are and who you are and after the passage of the past few months the rigid application of 2 metres is less strictly observed now.  

 

"Where you can" is the message for public transport and shopping.  Not "always stay 2m apart".  Reality has dawned on the message-makers that 67 million people cannot live, work, be educated and support a Western economy 2 metres apart for ever. 

 

It is a gentle easing back to somewhere like what existed before.  The most pressing situations are being unlocked first.  Shops, schools, public transport.  None of which totally closed but all of which had formal restrictions at some time rather more proscriptive than is the case today.  We hope for an unlocking of the hospitality sector on 4th July though - despite this date being worked towards in many places - it is not yet a certainty.  

 

Crowds at sporting events, exhibitions and such like where the very nature of the event prevents any form of distance being effectively managed will be last.  In all-seater stadia it may be possible to open the gates with a limited number of defined seats available as a start.  That is not true for model railway exhibitions.  

 

We shall be back.  Hang in there.  

Edited June 18, 2020 by Gwiwer

[TEAMYAKIMA]

3 hours ago, John M Upton said:

At the rate the Goverment are rushing/blundering/shambling* to get the economy going again now that they have discovered the kitty is empty I would expect the social distancing to be dropped an awful lot faster than anyone expects.

 

 

* Delete as appropriate 

 

I make no comment on your opinions  of government policy, but there is an old expression : "YOU CAN LEAD A HORSE TO WATER, BUT YOU CAN'T MAAKE IT DRINK"  .

 

So just because the government might reduce or abolish social distancing does not necessarily mean that the same number of people will be prepared to visit a model railway exhibition as would be the case if this virus had never appeared here. 

 

It will be a brave exhibition manager who is the first to stick his head above the parapet and hold the first show when social distancing is abolished.

[woodenhead]

6 minutes ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

It will be a brave exhibition manager who is the first to stick his head above the parapet and hold the first show when social distancing is abolished.

We are so starved of exhibitions if the first one is in a good location (i.e. accessible) then people will flock to it.

 

It will be the smaller shows that might have difficulties in the beginning but they are also the shows where crowding is less of an issue normally.

[TEAMYAKIMA]

3 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

We are so starved of exhibitions if the first one is in a good location (i.e. accessible) then people will flock to it.

 

It will be the smaller shows that might have difficulties in the beginning but they are also the shows where crowding is less of an issue normally.

 

Good points - so there are different views - optimistic and pessimistic with realistic somewhere in between , I look forward to finding out who is right

[Gwiwer]

10 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

It will be the smaller shows that might have difficulties in the beginning but they are also the shows where crowding is less of an issue normally.

Absolutely.  

 

I was due to exhibit at Hayle MRC in May and postponed until August.  That is also now off to the best of my knowledge and they managed a respectable "virtual" event over the May late holiday weekend.

 

Those are small events in the scheme of things.  While it would not be possible to maintain a 2m distance it would be reasonably easy to manage with 1m given the venue and the typical numbers present at any one time.  

 

As has been aired here before a part of the problem lies with the exhibitors themselves.  Many clubs have predominantly senior memberships.  Many exhibits require more than one person - in some cases full teams- to be working all day in close proximity.  Social distancing could not be achieved even at 1m although it probably could in most cases working on a basis of not being closer than 1m for more than a very short time.  And wearing a face-covering.

 

Exhibition managers will conduct their own risk assessments and decide when and in what format their events can return.  It is as much the exhibitors as anyone who will dictate the content; I suspect there will be ample numbers keen to attend.  

Edited June 18, 2020 by Gwiwer

[woodenhead]

10 minutes ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

 

Good points - so there are different views - optimistic and pessimistic with realistic somewhere in between , I look forward to finding out who is right

Ever the optimist - I even enjoyed a visit to the dentist yesterday to have a filling replaced.

 

Now that we are on the other side of the wave of cases I can see subtle changes in reporting - this article about the new drug rather demonstrates really how likely we are to suffer badly at the hands of covid - the statistic being 19 out of 20 people with Covid will not require hospital treatment - that's 95% of us will recover without needing help from a hospital.  During the rising stages of the pandemic the Government rightly chose to focus on deaths - it had to protect the NHS from being overwhelmed with cases, if they had talked down the chances of being severely ill more people would have simply ignored advice and at that time the true impacts of the illness were still being examined and learned.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53061281

 

If we are safe to go out for a Greggs, a Costa and a trip to the zoo we will soon be safe indoors at a railway exhibition again.  

 

Lets just hope they get the schools sorted before a railway exhibition though, because it would be complete madness if us older people are happily milling in large numbers around a model railway but children are still being denied an education.

[caradoc]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

It will be the smaller shows that might have difficulties in the beginning but they are also the shows where crowding is less of an issue normally.

 

Not so sure that is always so; Smaller shows of course have smaller crowds but they are also in smaller venues ! The last two shows I attended were Greenock in October last year and Glasgow in February this year; I would say Glasgow, on the Saturday at least, felt less crowded. Given the way things are going Glasgow 2021 is the next show I anticipate attending, anything sooner would be a bonus, but not at the expense of anyone's health and safety.

 

 

[Roger Sunderland]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

Ever the optimist - I even enjoyed a visit to the dentist yesterday to have a filling replaced.

 

Now that we are on the other side of the wave of cases I can see subtle changes in reporting - this article about the new drug rather demonstrates really how likely we are to suffer badly at the hands of covid - the statistic being 19 out of 20 people with Covid will not require hospital treatment - that's 95% of us will recover without needing help from a hospital.  During the rising stages of the pandemic the Government rightly chose to focus on deaths - it had to protect the NHS from being overwhelmed with cases, if they had talked down the chances of being severely ill more people would have simply ignored advice and at that time the true impacts of the illness were still being examined and learned.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53061281

 

If we are safe to go out for a Greggs, a Costa and a trip to the zoo we will soon be safe indoors at a railway exhibition again.  

 

Lets just hope they get the schools sorted before a railway exhibition though, because it would be complete madness if us older people are happily milling in large numbers around a model railway but children are still being denied an education.

How will it soon be safe to go to an indoor model railway exhibition. The virus thrives on close contact in an indoor environment. Visits to Zoos etc are outdoors, that’s what makes them safer. Greggs and Costa are a 2 minute visit, not hours or a whole day.

Coronavirus has not gone away , it’s still around, just being held at bay, although judging by the numbers still dying, not that well.

People attending exhibitions tend to be elderly, the highest risk category, one infected person, even though they may not be aware of it, would be like a time bomb being set off.

i do think exhibitions will return - once there is little risk, ie either a vaccine or a drug that can stop the effects. Until then why are we so desperate for them to return? Isn’t it enough we have our health (hopefully) and can still do some modelling.

[woodenhead]

58 minutes ago, Roger Sunderland said:

How will it soon be safe to go to an indoor model railway exhibition. The virus thrives on close contact in an indoor environment. Visits to Zoos etc are outdoors, that’s what makes them safer. Greggs and Costa are a 2 minute visit, not hours or a whole day.

Coronavirus has not gone away , it’s still around, just being held at bay, although judging by the numbers still dying, not that well.

People attending exhibitions tend to be elderly, the highest risk category, one infected person, even though they may not be aware of it, would be like a time bomb being set off.

i do think exhibitions will return - once there is little risk, ie either a vaccine or a drug that can stop the effects. Until then why are we so desperate for them to return? Isn’t it enough we have our health (hopefully) and can still do some modelling.

If it thrives so well indoors why are football matches without crowds and race meets without spectators?  It thrives in close contact, it doesn't worry about the weather and take cover indoors.

 

People attending exhibitions tend to be elderly - that's a bit ageist - there are plenty of younger folk, and I don't mean people in their 50s like me.

 

If we wait for a vaccine we may be waiting a long long time

 

I'm not desperate for an exhibition just optimistic that we will soon (that doesn't mean in two weeks) be able to mingle together once more.

 

A lot of the cancellations now I think are more to do with not knowing what the Government guidelines will be in two-six months time and the impact that might have financially.  It's better to cancel now and not expend money that may not be recoverable - the insurance terms from what I can see now exclude foreseeable Government mandated lock downs meaning if a exhibition continues to be planned in the current environment and then cancels later on it will not be covered.

[griffgriff]

4 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

If it thrives so well indoors why are football matches without crowds and race meets without spectators?  It thrives in close contact, it doesn't worry about the weather and take cover indoors.

 

People attending exhibitions tend to be elderly - that's a bit ageist - there are plenty of younger folk, and I don't mean people in their 50s like me.

 

If we wait for a vaccine we may be waiting a long long time

 

I'm not desperate for an exhibition just optimistic that we will soon (that doesn't mean in two weeks) be able to mingle together once more.

 

A lot of the cancellations now I think are more to do with not knowing what the Government guidelines will be in two-six months time and the impact that might have financially.  It's better to cancel now and not expend money that may not be recoverable - the insurance terms from what I can see now exclude foreseeable Government mandated lock downs meaning if a exhibition continues to be planned in the current environment and then cancels later on it will not be covered.

Absolutely..... but I’ve never seen hoards of people thronging  together for a view of the Zebras.

 

Griff

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, griffgriff said:

Absolutely..... but I’ve never seen hoards of people thronging  together for a view of the Zebras.

 

Griff

Cos they're with me looking at the Rhinos.

 

Rhinos is where the action is

[Chris116]

11 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Cos they're with me looking at the Rhinos.

 

Rhinos is where the action is

I thought that round here the action was where the Hippos are! @Happy Hippo

[woodenhead]

4 minutes ago, Chris116 said:

I thought that round here the action was where the Hippos are! @Happy Hippo

Rhino Pete respectfully asks you rethink your last comment.

 

Edit: blimey, he's big

Edited June 18, 2020 by woodenhead

[Legend]

11 hours ago, Wheres_Wally said:

It's probably safe to say there won't be any shows this year and probably most of next. If the trade can survive without them,  will any want the hassle of going back in the future? I doubt it. But without trade you can't run a show so I don't think shows will ever come back.

Wow and I thought I was pessimistic . Warley “postponement” is not a surprise . I also don’t think that 31st December will be a magic day and 2021 will be a lot better . My fear now is for Model Rail Scotland In February that ive attended every year since 1973 as the SECC is a hospital , albeit I don’t  think used. 
 

It would be great if there’s a Covid cure , then normality would resume pretty quickly . However there may be no cure, in which case we have to hunt this damn virus down with effective track and trace , so that when attending large scale events, sport , concerts, cinemas , exhibitions we can have some confidence the person beside us doesn’t have it and we won’t get infected . I think that’s the key to the future . If no cure, we will end up living alongside this virus and coping . I for one will be desperate to get back to exhibitions, when it’s safe to do so. And sensing opportunities I think traders will be there to satisfy the pent up demand .  So while I agree we should be realistic , I think to say shows will never come back is unnecessarily bleak, and frankly wrong . 

Edited June 18, 2020 by Legend

[Dunsignalling]

5 hours ago, woodenhead said:

We are so starved of exhibitions if the first one is in a good location (i.e. accessible) then people will flock to it.

 

It will be the smaller shows that might have difficulties in the beginning but they are also the shows where crowding is less of an issue normally.

Some will, some won't, depending on their perception of the personal risk the virus might still present.

 

The crux of the problem is, that if even 10-15% of established show-goers "won't", their absence will, in most cases, represent the difference between shows (of whatever size) making a profit or not.  

 

We are all anticipating that the government will very soon announce a dramatic loosening of the social distancing provisions currently in force. I, for one, will suspect the primary driver of that to be economic, rather than scientific if it happens as soon as I expect (2-4 weeks from now).

 

If so, I shall be observing what happens to those who throw themselves eagerly back into "normal life" from a safe distance for two or three months before easing back in myself. I am fortunate in having the choice and a slightly reclusive nature that makes what's been happening since March, relatively painless. 

 

I don't envisage my own interaction with society at large, and model exhibitions in particular, resuming pre-pandemic ways before this time next year, unless a vaccine is developed and applied (including to me) sooner. Hopefully one (or more) will and I'll be proved wrong but, as of 18th June 2020, I fear that may be erring on the side of over-optimism.

 

John 

[woodenhead]

20 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Some will, some won't, depending on their perception of the personal risk the virus might still present.

 

John 

I don't disagree, there will be many like you who will err on the side of caution, but there will be many who will make a decision to go - given the lack of exhibitions then the first one to run will attract a lot of people for the simple reason there haven't been any.  For some people it will remain a real and present danger to their health and shielding is still a reality for many people, my mother in law hasn't been out since March.

 

Personally I don't expect any exhibitions in the next 4 months and then if there are any it will be because the Government has loosened restrictions sufficiently to make the worthwhile.

[Dunsignalling]

6 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Ever the optimist - I even enjoyed a visit to the dentist yesterday to have a filling replaced.

 

Now that we are on the other side of the wave of cases I can see subtle changes in reporting - this article about the new drug rather demonstrates really how likely we are to suffer badly at the hands of covid - the statistic being 19 out of 20 people with Covid will not require hospital treatment - that's 95% of us will recover without needing help from a hospital.  During the rising stages of the pandemic the Government rightly chose to focus on deaths - it had to protect the NHS from being overwhelmed with cases, if they had talked down the chances of being severely ill more people would have simply ignored advice and at that time the true impacts of the illness were still being examined and learned.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53061281

 

If we are safe to go out for a Greggs, a Costa and a trip to the zoo we will soon be safe indoors at a railway exhibition again.  

 

Lets just hope they get the schools sorted before a railway exhibition though, because it would be complete madness if us older people are happily milling in large numbers around a model railway but children are still being denied an education.

For me, It'll be when pubs and restaurants can trade with little restriction and I'm once again relaxed about spending an hour or two over a leisurely lunch with friends. Ditto when It's OK to go to more distant shows by train again.

 

The cynic in me cannot but wonder how much the reduction in death rates can be put down to the effectiveness of the restrictions/precautions imposed on us all and how much is simply a matter of the virus having taken the easiest targets before we all started getting our act together....

 

I don't really understand the fears over reopening schools. Whilst every death is a tragedy and that of a youngster especially so, the statistical likelihood of one arising from Covid has been minute. Still in single figures out of the forty to sixty-odd thousand total, the last time I saw the numbers, and almost all of those before social distancing came in. The staff will be incurring a huge multiple of any risk that applies to their pupils, though.   

 

Given that quite a lot of shows take place in educational establishments, I think it's safe to expect that normality will have to return to their daily use long before we see any resumption of weekend hire to outsiders and that such use may continue to be restricted for some considerable time. 

 

John

Edited June 18, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[Ravenser]

34 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Some will, some won't, depending on their perception of the personal risk the virus might still present.

 

The crux of the problem is, that if even 10-15% of established show-goers "won't", their absence will, in most cases, represent the difference between shows (of whatever size) making a profit or not.  

 

We are all anticipating that the government will very soon announce a dramatic loosening of the social distancing provisions currently in force. I, for one, will suspect the primary driver of that to be economic, rather than scientific if it happens as soon as I expect (2-4 weeks from now).

 

If so, I shall be observing what happens to those who throw themselves eagerly back into "normal life" from a safe distance for two or three months before easing back in myself. I am fortunate in having the choice and a slightly reclusive nature that makes what's been happening since March, relatively painless. 

 

I don't envisage my own interaction with society at large, and model exhibitions in particular, resuming pre-pandemic ways before this time next year, unless a vaccine is developed and applied (including to me) sooner. Hopefully one (or more) will and I'll be proved wrong but, as of 18th June 2020, I fear that may be erring on the side of over-optimism.

 

John 

 

Once it becomes possible to mount a model railway exhibition, the first exhibitions to be held will certainly do well at the gate, precisely because there have been no shows for months. People will go to the first shows at A and B  in part because they haven't been to X and Y and Z which were cancelled

 

That's not to say though that the exhibition circuit will simply switch itself back on "as it was"

 

I expect that for the first 6 months - certainly the first 3 - the number of shows will be restricted. Some venues won't be available. Some shows won't be able to muster enough volunteers because some of the regulars are over 70 and think the risk too great. Some organisers will not survive. This is particularly the case if clubs miss two successive shows - that may sink them if they depend on a surplus from the show to balance the books.

 

The number of exhibitions has grown relentlessly over the last 4 decades. The circuit looked big 20 years ago - the size of the hobby has certainly diminished in the last 20 years (not necessarily by a lot) but the number of shows has still increased 20-25%

 

I think there will now be a cull. I think it will take quite a while and quite a lot of effort to get the circuit back up and running. Some shows in 2021 may not do well - and may not be repeated. We could quite possibly lose anywhere  between 20 and 33% of the 2019 shows in the short term (2021), with new shows slowly emerging to replace some of them. 

 

At the same time this would also mean better gates at individual shows (even if 15% of the punters overall stay home, if the shows are down 20-25% the average gate goes up...) , and shows would have fresher and better content. You won't be seeing the same layout at three shows in 12 months. It's arguable that we have been spread a little too thin in recent years - that may change, and the circuit may be stronger and more sustainable in the short term. 

[Wheres_Wally]

Until there is a vaccine is developed, and there are plenty on here who say this will never happen, and it is rolled out to at least 65% of the population, then I can't see large indoor gatherings being possible. Even the most optimistic guess for development is the autumn. After that you need to jab 40 million people. How long for that, remembering the low takeup of MMR? A year? Two? Never?

 

By that point traders will have evolved their businesses to do without shows. Exhibition stock will have been absorbed into the general stock. How many will want to set up to do shows all over again when they have managed without perfectly well for 12-18 months? Exhibitions are hard work with no guarantee of a financial return. If you don't need them, why bother? 

 

No trade=no show. At least no show of any sice unless people are willing to pay a lot more for admission. Can't see many on here doing that, there's enough moaning about price now!

 

 

[TEAMYAKIMA]

4 hours ago, Wheres_Wally said:

Until there is a vaccine is developed, and there are plenty on here who say this will never happen, and it is rolled out to at least 65% of the population, then I can't see large indoor gatherings being possible. Even the most optimistic guess for development is the autumn. After that you need to jab 40 million people. How long for that, remembering the low takeup of MMR? A year? Two? Never?

 

By that point traders will have evolved their businesses to do without shows. Exhibition stock will have been absorbed into the general stock. How many will want to set up to do shows all over again when they have managed without perfectly well for 12-18 months? Exhibitions are hard work with no guarantee of a financial return. If you don't need them, why bother? 

 

No trade=no show. At least no show of any sice unless people are willing to pay a lot more for admission. Can't see many on here doing that, there's enough moaning about price now!

 

Now please remember that I was the first person here to reply the last time you posted and I said that even as a pessimist myself I found your post too pessimistic, but you do make a well thought out point, no matter how pessimistic I think it is.

 

It's a bit like 'working from home' ……………… companies hadn't planned to do it before Covid 19, they bought/rented expensive office space, but now that they have adapted their business so that many office workers can work from home then some companies will retain 'working from home' and offices won't be needed as much.

 

So I can see a certain logic in what you say, but could we hear from traders please. Have you adapted your business model to survive without exhibitions?

 

If so :  does that make you re-think attending shows? 

 

If not : are you going out of business?

Edited June 19, 2020 by TEAMYAKIMA

[PaulRhB]

4 hours ago, Wheres_Wally said:

How many will want to set up to do shows all over again when they have managed without perfectly well for 12-18 months? Exhibitions are hard work with no guarantee of a financial return. If you don't need them, why bother? 
 

Well why did they bother before? For some it’s because it opens up the part of the market not already online or who dislike online shopping. Any sensible business exploits all the avenues that do make money. For others the social interaction is fun with their regular customers and it’s a chance to see the rest of the market too. Your comments are judging it on a very narrow outlook on business!

I’ve dealt with Cheltenham Models for probably nearly 40 years as we popped in to break a journey on the way to see family many times as kids and the friendly attitude meant they’ve always been a welcome choice at shows since. Now I have two good local shops who will get my business if they stopped doing shows and there are multiple sources for other items so online I go for who’s got the best price for it all in stock. Without their show presence why would Cheltenham be in the top group I’d look at online? Advertising isn’t just about ads in mags it’s about creating a good image of your business and the personal presence and service at a show is very important to perception for a large percentage of people. Why do big brands associate themselves with popular personalities? It’s about human interaction, which is why they drop them like a stone when the personality has bad press.

 

Quote

 

No trade=no show. At least no show of any sice unless people are willing to pay a lot more for admission. Can't see many on here doing that, there's enough moaning about price now!

That may be true of some shows but from the traders I know they fully intend to be back as soon as possible because they enjoy supporting the friends who run some of the shows as well as it being good for business. 
 

I do think you’re looking at this from a very narrow personal viewpoint, our show next year is in doubt but there’s been no mass bailout of traders booked. So when shows restart I’d pop along and actually chat to the traders. I know several well to chat to who I only met through shows and a couple I count as good friends. It’s not speculation and several have poo poo’d the negative lookout in these threads without mentioning their business!  

Edited June 19, 2020 by PaulRhB

[MarcD]

I can only speak for myself as a small scale trader. Business has all but dried up. It was always the case of people came to the shows and bought. The majority of my customers were in the over 65's and were not interested in what was posted on the web. I'm not sure what is going to happen to others like myself. I'm not covered by any of the government paid holiday plans so yes I think shows to trade but who is going to come and buy if they go ahead. All bar 1 of the shows I was going to this year have been cancelled. The largest one in August hasn't because the venue is waiting for the government to say something. In the meantime, I have a looming deadline for ordering stock to alow me to have something to sell. If I order and then it's cancelled then I bankrupt the company. If I don't order anything and it goes ahead I have very little stock and the expense of going to the show bankrupt the company or I pull out of the show and loose the deposit. A decision about cancelling the show was supposed to be made 3 weeks ago then it was 2 weeks ago then it was last week, then it was yesterday and now it's next week. 

As people have said no trade support no show so if my situation is common then next year there will be a lot less trade support so a lot less shows by default.

Marc