Exhibition cancellations (not much to do with that anymore!)

['CHARD]

3 minutes ago, DutyDruid said:

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1329512/London-news-anti-maskers-London-tube-boris-johnson-face-masks-mandatory

 

Unable to read due to a virulent infestation of pop-ups, ads and push-feeds.  Clearly this sort of intimidating behaviour is unacceptable, if indeed the story is factual and unbiased. 

[woodenhead]

Sadly in the world we live in today, there is only room to be a pro mask wearer or an anti mask wearer, despite the fact most of us are somewhere in between, wearing them because we need to but not really wanting to.

 

You're Left or Right, Wrong or Right, Good or Bad, With us or Against us.

 

Whatever became of 'Live and let live'

 

 

[Phil Parker]

56 minutes ago, Giles said:

With schools and universities returning I think we will learn a whole lot more about transmission in the next couple of months which will be very informative. People are rightly commenting on the relatively low death numbers of circa 65,000 but of course this is achieved having put control measures in place (lock-down etc.).

 

That is at best a guess. We came out of serious lockdown months ago and yet all EU countries, including those whose schools have ben open longer than ours,  are showing the same results - lots of infection, very few hospitalisations or deaths. The cry of "it will be worse in 2 weeks" has been regular on Twitter for months and so far, fortunately, nothing has happened. Why are hospitalisations and deaths not rising? Lots of theories, but no answers yet.

 

[PenrithBeacon]

2 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

And how are the to be protected from accidents on the road? Statistics said that yesterday, 9 people died on the roads and 2 from Covid - and before anyone says "You can't catch road deaths" there is a good chance that those who died were in accidents caused by someone else. They could also be involved in an accident at the show - someone stumbles on the stairs, accidentally shoves someone else down the stairs and cracks their head open. Or maybe while repairing a model, the grubby screwdriver slips, cutting the finger of a modeller and they die of sepsis (100 a day in the UK).

 

The stats would also say that at some point, either a visitor or exhibitor to a show has ben killed because they chose to go to a toy train event. Ultimately, every decision is down to the individual and their personal assessment of risk. Your assessment is that you will never go out again, at least until a vaccine that you have assessed is safe and effective is available. That's fine - but it's your choice. Others will decide differently.

I have never said I won't go out again, today I've been to Tesco click and collect and the local DIY shop; later I'll go and deposit a cheque, face mask to the fore.

 

What I have said is the question 'how would you do a model railway exhibition without a vaccine'. Your post and all the others of its ilk avoid answering it, but without an answer there will be no more model railway exhibitions until and unless there is a vaccine. None at all.

[woodenhead]

My theories on this would be an element of Darwinism and people taking the risks seriously and developing tactics to avoid full blown contact.

 

It took time for the virus to penetrate communities and people didn't recognise the risk early enough, this allowed the virus to penetrate deep into those communities especially closed ones like care homes where not only were people close together they were vulnerable.

 

First thing we did was isolate everyone with lockdown so the initial bow wave of infection would be broken up though it would still take time to fully be realised.

 

Then when we did begin to mix we did so in a manner more appreciative of the risk.

 

And maybe the virus is weakened by these factors, masks are stopping us getting quite a big a dose, we're all keeping our hands clean and being mindful.

 

It puts light at the end of a tunnel.

[PaulRhB]

13 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

Why are hospitalisations and deaths not rising? Lots of theories, but no answers yet.

Continuing patience while they understand it just keeps the pressure off the healthcare folks. There’s historical precedent for the most deadly strains evolving themselves out as they kill the host but this also has the ‘long-tail’ strain. That isn’t hospitalising people but leaving them unable to work months later, I’m not seeing any figures for that but I know one suffering personally and know of a couple more locally affecting 20’s through to late 50’s. 
Vaccines are just one response long term and an uncertain one as the flu ones prove. 

[woodenhead]

4 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

I have never said I won't go out again, today I've been to Tesco click and collect and the local DIY shop; later I'll go and deposit a cheque, face mask to the fore.

 

What I have said is the question 'how would you do a model railway exhibition without a vaccine'. Your post and all the others of its ilk avoid answering it, but without an answer there will be no more model railway exhibitions until and unless there is a vaccine. None at all.

If we can get on a train or a plane with a bunch of strangers then we can meet up in a large hall with a similar bunch of strangers.

 

I don't think the barrier to an exhibition is a vaccine, it is as @TEAMYAKIMAproffered, it is when enough exhbitors and traders are prepared to stage one and I am happy to wait for them to be ready.

[andyman7]

10 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

I have never said I won't go out again, today I've been to Tesco click and collect and the local DIY shop; later I'll go and deposit a cheque, face mask to the fore.

 

What I have said is the question 'how would you do a model railway exhibition without a vaccine'. Your post and all the others of its ilk avoid answering it, but without an answer there will be no more model railway exhibitions until and unless there is a vaccine. None at all.

There are protocols in place that answer your question. Whether they allow an exhibition to be viable is a different question, but they should enable something to take place.

 

The basic requirements are to manage entry, so rather than just turn up at the door timed or selective entry is needed - well within the capabilities of a big organiser like Warners. For a small exhibition, it can be managed on the door. As has been said, this is likely to be most challenging for medium sized exhibitions.

 

A one way system is needed for making way through the exhibits. It doesn't mean you can only see everything once but no back-and-forth - you go round. Masks would be required at present, as would hand sanitiser and handwashing faciiities.

 

Obviously, you need traders, exhibitors and public. This obviously can only be drawn from those willing to participate, but given the total absence of the normal calendar of exhibitions I am sure that enough of the first two can be found.

 

I would be surprised if there isn't a show or two before a vaccine is available. Attendance is of course entirely voluntary!

Edited September 7, 2020 by andyman7

[PenrithBeacon]

And what criteria do you think they will apply before they are ready? And what criteria will the owners of the venue apply before they allow a show to go ahead? The comparision with  a train or plane is invalid.

[woodenhead]

And probably no special promotions either - no Bachamann or Dapol grab em now stands like we see at Warley.

 

Purchasing from other stands should be no different to picking up fruit, veg and other goods at a supermarket - commonsense just needs to prevail.

[Geoff Endacott]

The limiting factor is not so much who will be willing to attend an exhibition but who will be willing to run one. The people at greatest risk will be those on the cash desk selling and checking tickets. No amount of online booking of advance tickets and cashless payment methods will do away with the need for someone to check tickets on the door. Those who do the job in our club tend to be the older or less active members because it's a job they can do sitting down. They also tend to be those at most risk from the virus. I can cope with greatly reduced attendance because costs can be reduced accordingly. What I can't do is organise a show without club members who are willing to volunteer for the public facing roles. I think it may be some considerable time before enough people feel comfortable enough to do that.

 

Geoff Endacott

[woodenhead]

2 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

And what criteria do you think they will apply before they are ready? And what criteria will the owners of the venue apply before they allow a show to go ahead? The comparision with  a train or plane is invalid.

People voluntarily get onto a plane or train full of people, they are sealed units which can lack fresh air - a exhibition hall by comparison has fresh air and high ceilings, you're not sat next to the same person for a hour or more.

 

The owners of a venue will be glad of the business, they will be proper exhibition spaces not schools as we're all pretty much agreed such spaces are out of the question for the foreseeable future.

[woodenhead]

3 minutes ago, Geoff Endacott said:

The limiting factor is not so much who will be willing to attend an exhibition but who will be willing to run one. The people at greatest risk will be those on the cash desk selling and checking tickets. No amount of online booking of advance tickets and cashless payment methods will do away with the need for someone to check tickets on the door. Those who do the job in our club tend to be the older or less active members because it's a job they can do sitting down. They also tend to be those at most risk from the virus. I can cope with greatly reduced attendance because costs can be reduced accordingly. What I can't do is organise a show without club members who are willing to volunteer for the public facing roles. I think it may be some considerable time before enough people feel comfortable enough to do that.

 

Geoff Endacott

Perhaps with less exhibitions and using formal exhibition spaces the time has come to consider a paid element to the stewarding and factor that into the entry price.

 

I'd pay more, I expect to, so why not reduce the risk by removing those roles which currently are covered by the unpaid vulnerable volunteers.

 

Maybe Warners and Model Rail's publishers could work together on ticketing solutions based on how they currently sell for their exhibitions - one solution to fit all exhibitions regardless who is providing the exhibition so there is a one stop shop to control purchase and flow of people.  Again the cost of which can be absorbed into ticketing prices.  

['CHARD]

1 minute ago, Geoff Endacott said:

The limiting factor is not so much who will be willing to attend an exhibition but who will be willing to run one. The people at greatest risk will be those on the cash desk selling and checking tickets. No amount of online booking of advance tickets and cashless payment methods will do away with the need for someone to check tickets on the door. Those who do the job in our club tend to be the older or less active members because it's a job they can do sitting down. They also tend to be those at most risk from the virus. I can cope with greatly reduced attendance because costs can be reduced accordingly. What I can't do is organise a show without club members who are willing to volunteer for the public facing roles. I think it may be some considerable time before enough people feel comfortable enough to do that.

 

Geoff Endacott

 

Use of QR codes and other tech can surely make the admission process one that doesn't require human checking.  For smaller shows the use of face coverings or visors would get round this, in the same way that food pubs are managing presently with a person in visor behind the counter welcoming socially-distanced visitors/ diners.

 

I'm not too bothered about going to any exhibitions, but I am extremely keen to get back to playing and watching live music again, and rather than a glass-half-empty attitude I'm more interested in creative and innovative ways of getting back to business in relative and proportional safety from viral transmission.  

 

Not singling you out Geoff, or implying you hold a glass-half-empty mindset, just using your post as a reference point.

[AY Mod]

44 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

'how would you do a model railway exhibition without a vaccine'. Your post and all the others of its ilk avoid answering it, but without an answer there will be no more model railway exhibitions until and unless there is a vaccine. None at all.

 

There will be; vaccine or not, in due course when it's worked out the best way to manage with the known circumstances at a future point in time. Not today and not tomorrow but at some point. If you want to go back and read my earlier post I give some outlines on how it may be possible with small and large shows (but not medium). I could go into far more detail on how it could be possible but I won't bother if you just keep shouting 'no vaccine, no shows' louder each time anyone suggests otherwise.

 

We're not daft, we're not blase about it but we do look at what's possible. Phil and I have drawn up a very comprehensive set of protocols for carrying out photo/video shoots at modellers' homes or clubs. That's for us to share with them on a case by case basis but there's a lot in there that would be applicable to exhibition environments. It will be up to any individual exhibition what measures they put in place and how they communicate that to their visitors; there isn't a BS standard for 'shows in the time of Covid'. I'm not avoiding giving you an answer but I haven't got the time to argue with you about measures but answers will develop and it's up to you whether you go to a show at a future point; vaccine or no vaccine. So your 'none at all' absolute statement is not right - that may be what you decide for yourself but it's not what will happen.

[Geoff Endacott]

No amount of technology will avoid the need for some form of human presence. There is a world of difference between people taking a (managed) risk as part of their job and taking a risk as a volunteer. Until such time as club members are willing to staff exhibitions they aren't going to happen.

 

Geoff Endacott

 

 

[woodenhead]

4 minutes ago, Geoff Endacott said:

No amount of technology will avoid the need for some form of human presence. There is a world of difference between people taking a (managed) risk as part of their job and taking a risk as a volunteer. Until such time as club members are willing to staff exhibitions they aren't going to happen.

 

Geoff Endacott

 

 

I fully understand your position and sympathise, an exhibition needs everyone to want to be there otherwise what's the point.

['CHARD]

4 minutes ago, Geoff Endacott said:

No amount of technology will avoid the need for some form of human presence. There is a world of difference between people taking a (managed) risk as part of their job and taking a risk as a volunteer. Until such time as club members are willing to staff exhibitions they aren't going to happen.

 

Geoff Endacott

 

 

 

Woodenhead (I think) mentioned above that staff could, or possibly should, be paid for undertaking such stewarding duties.  These people can be agency hospitality staff with suitable social distancing training, in the same vein as those employed in other parts of the customer facing world, and most likely they will be in the younger age groups.

[DutyDruid]

34 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

 

 

36 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

 Why are hospitalisations and deaths not rising? Lots of theories, but no answers yet.

 

 

 

You can't deny that there are a lot more tests being done now, which in turn will mean that a lot more cases will be detected in that group of people that are basically destined to be asymptomatic.  I see this as a good thing in that it will slow the spread, but it will push the reported case numbers up too.

 

The other thing: I don't know what advice someone who tests positive is given, but I do know that in the last month or so that a lot has been published medically about simple things which if done early enough can greatly reduce the impact of the disease on the body, in turn reducing the number of recorded (or required) hospitalisations.  Not a lot is being made of this in the mainstream press for what I would call "political (lowercase p) reasons".

 

[DutyDruid]

4 minutes ago, 'CHARD said:

 

Woodenhead (I think) mentioned above that staff could, or possibly should, be paid for undertaking such stewarding duties.  These people can be agency hospitality staff with suitable social distancing training, in the same vein as those employed in other parts of the customer facing world, and most likely they will be in the younger age groups.

 

Bang goes my "Financially Viable" model!

[AY Mod]

1 minute ago, DutyDruid said:

Bang goes my "Financially Viable" model!

 

And that is a real hurdle which can impact the middle ground. I referred earlier to Ally Pally and part of the (very expensive) venue hire includes their staff who could assist with flow control, compliance and other matters. Whether that would need to be upped would need some looking at but as 'Chard said could be supplemented by agency staff. We also know they have a handy bouncer or two; Phil and I saw one in action after an incident and you wouldn't say "I'm not wearing a mask" to that mountain. You'd need a mask and a nappy.

['CHARD]

8 minutes ago, DutyDruid said:

 

Bang goes my "Financially Viable" model!

 

Not necessarily - I reckon that by the time the various stakeholders are 'ready' in their respective ways to restart the exhibition behemoth, wider 'hospitality' and society in general will be pretty slick at facilitating events such that they are viable for the aforesaid stakeholders. 

 

It may be a radically different business model from what went before, but the hundreds of organisations (universities, conference centres, hotels, training centres etc) who rely on selling event 'spaces' are turning their full attention on getting back to business, whether this is by hosting the Motorcycle Show or Covid Vaccine Seminars.

 

EDIT: Mr York beat me to it a bit there!!!

Edited September 7, 2020 by 'CHARD
Mental impairment

[PaulRhB]

16 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Perhaps with less exhibitions and using formal exhibition spaces the time has come to consider a paid element to the stewarding

They just squeezes the small profits made though and there’s already a lot of moaning about show prices from some without bumping up prices to pay for a lot of stewards, it’s not cheap to hire in a company that covers all their staff’s risks with this. 
The free labour by club members is a huge amount of cost saved and you’ll soon be approaching the costs of commercial attractions if you need to cover separate rooms for everyone to stay in, doubling the cost of exhibitor accommodation, plus sanitiser etc and counter the expected reduced numbers of less than 50% from Andy’s two surveys. 

[jonny777]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Why are hospitalisations and deaths not rising? Lots of theories, but no answers yet.

 

 

 

A newspaper report which I read (maybe just a theory) said it was because the rise in infections was mostly confined to the under 50s, most of whom do not have extreme symptoms suffered by the over 70s, and are usually feeling much better after a few days. 

 

The older age groups (especially those who are retired) are being far less 'free and easy' with their social lives, and are practising some form of lockdown-lite voluntarily, even though many restrictions have been eased. 

[woodenhead]

2 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

They just squeezes the small profits made though and there’s already a lot of moaning about show prices from some without bumping up prices to pay for a lot of stewards, it’s not cheap to hire in a company that covers all their staff’s risks with this. 
The free labour by club members is a huge amount of cost saved and you’ll soon be approaching the costs of commercial attractions if you need to cover separate rooms for everyone to stay in, doubling the cost of exhibitor accommodation, plus sanitiser etc and counter the expected reduced numbers of less than 50% from Andy’s two surveys. 

That it will cost us as punters more to go has to be something we have to take on the chin perhaps as the price of accessing something.  As has been discussed already, the likelihood of a lot of vulnerable people putting themselves into a risky situation where they get nothing in return is low to nil so something else needs to change and be factored into the costs.  For a lot of model railway clubs I think the time of the annual exhibition to raise some funds are probably gone for the foreseeable future, it is the commercial operators and big exhibition players who are going to carrying the torch into this new world with some small single room exhibitions running where only localish people will be the main visitors.