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Coronavirus, now a Cost of Living Crisis: The threat to railway preservation


Northmoor
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2 hours ago, tractionman said:

Some potential government funding for preserved lines mentioned here

 

https://www.therailwayhub.co.uk/10907/heritage-railways-trade-body-welcomes-todays-government-support-but-detail-remains-to-be-clarified/

 

Fingers crossed some of this cash helps our heritage railways, they're a vital part of the local economy up and down the land.

 

I wouldn't get too optimistic about preserved railways being high on the waiting list of recipients.  The bigger, better railways do make a significant contribution to their local areas but many vastly overstate their impact.  As much of the government support now on offer is to support paid employment - and these railways are famously dominated by volunteer labour - they won't have much of a claim.  So much of a railways costs are "engineering" costs which they have to buy in and without money landing in the farebox, shop and cafe, they could run low on cash very quickly.

 

As for the reported thefts, disgraceful but entirely predictable when everyone knows the place is now generally unoccupied.

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Put simply, if may of the people who are likely to support the railway(s) are out of a job they won't be able to donate.

 

If the government gives money ultimately YOU will have to pay for this from your tax contributions.

 

The charity commission says that you need to have a contingency fund that you can survive on for a few months if something unprecedented happens.

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6 hours ago, KeithHC said:

Another thought which has to come well down the list. What will happen to Boiler certificates will they be allowed to be extended. 

 

Keith

It depends on the boiler condition and the inspector, some extension may be given for a period out of use. Locos like 47406 on the GCR which have already had an extension unlikely to get any more time. 

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There is a formula for working it out, but it was a very long time ago that I learnt what it was and have since forgotten it. What I can say that the closer to the end of the ticket, the less the permissible extension. Previous recent boiler history is also taken into account.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Dava said:

It depends on the boiler condition and the inspector, some extension may be given for a period out of use. Locos like 47406 on the GCR which have already had an extension unlikely to get any more time. 

 

i know 60009 Union of South Africa had her boiler ticket extended. i think that was because that John Cameron's planned museum in Fife was declined. I saw her on the NYMR last year and i rode behind her. 

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Sadly it looks like 60009 has had her last run as the boiler ticket expires around 20 April. 

 

Seen here running through Kettering on 7 March, probably her last mainline run.

 

https://spark.adobe.com/video/cFCwG7vpntwj6?fbclid=IwAR3ghbF3k3AavYZqDogjULSZEs-n2EnGuuwqR8_h7ZE8-wzz_4EoUF0MxBg

 

Dava

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Looking back at this topic I started five months ago, it's interesting to see how things have panned out so far.  The amounts raised by many railways in donations has been really impressive.  It will undoubtedly have got a few through the season without going bankrupt.  Likewise the government furlough scheme will have helped those with paid staff; ironically those railways which have the greatest percentage of volunteer labour were worse off.  The way the more professionally-run railways have adapted their operations to maintain social distancing, has also been impressive.

 

My original concerns still stand though.  I know the collapse of UK railway preservation has been forecast many times before and I'm not predicting that, but there will definitely be a few railways that won't reopen next year.  It's not as if railways and museums haven't closed before; I once counted well over 30 schemes in Britain which got as far as opening to the public but which are now closed.

 

Of the two railways I'm a life member of (so neither has had much income out of me for some years), I've made a donation to one and the other oddly seems to never have set up a scheme for donations.  I've also taken out membership of one railway for the next five years, which may get converted to Life in future.  Over the coming months I will make the effort to visit a few railways for the first time in too long.

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17 hours ago, Northmoor said:

.  Over the coming months I will make the effort to visit a few railways for the first time in too long.

Perhaps we could have recommendations for some of the smaller railways that often get overlooked? (to avoid any arguments here perhaps no negative comments?)

 

Stu

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Ican thoroughly recommend Mangapps in Essex. And over the bank holiday weekend they are doing a mini-diesel gala with multiple locos inculding one of their ex-NR 31s. They've put a LOT of effort into keeping things safe.

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17 hours ago, Northmoor said:

Looking back at this topic I started five months ago, it's interesting to see how things have panned out so far.  The amounts raised by many railways in donations has been really impressive.  It will undoubtedly have got a few through the season without going bankrupt.  Likewise the government furlough scheme will have helped those with paid staff; ironically those railways which have the greatest percentage of volunteer labour were worse off.  The way the more professionally-run railways have adapted their operations to maintain social distancing, has also been impressive.

 

My original concerns still stand though.  I know the collapse of UK railway preservation has been forecast many times before and I'm not predicting that, but there will definitely be a few railways that won't reopen next year.  It's not as if railways and museums haven't closed before; I once counted well over 30 schemes in Britain which got as far as opening to the public but which are now closed.

 

Of the two railways I'm a life member of (so neither has had much income out of me for some years), I've made a donation to one and the other oddly seems to never have set up a scheme for donations.  I've also taken out membership of one railway for the next five years, which may get converted to Life in future.  Over the coming months I will make the effort to visit a few railways for the first time in too long.

 

All depends on what the schemes where. Many of the places we called steam centres had out lived their usefulness or have revered to private sheds.

 

Carnforth, Dinting, Southport, Tyseley, etc. have all gone, mostly due to changes in visitor expectations. The public aren't interested in a short journey up and down the yard like they did in the 1970s, they want a journey.

 

Can't think of one project that has totally failed.

 

 

 

Jason

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2 hours ago, Bucoops said:

Ican thoroughly recommend Mangapps in Essex. And over the bank holiday weekend they are doing a mini-diesel gala with multiple locos inculding one of their ex-NR 31s. They've put a LOT of effort into keeping things safe.

I would recommend the Mid-Suffolk, although they don't appear to opening this year.

 

Also, the Gwili was a very friendly little line. Also appears not to opening this year.

 

Stu

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2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

 

 

Carnforth, Dinting, Southport, Tyseley, etc. have all gone, mostly due to changes in visitor expectations. The public aren't interested in a short journey up and down the yard like they did in the 1970s, they want a journey.

 

 

I'm not sure the loss of those sites was really down to changes in visitor expectations though

 

Dinting lost its lease and its main line connection

Southport, as I'm sure you know, relocated owing to the state of its building and is very much still in existence on another site (albeit with a longer run).

Carnforth closed because the support of the main line ecursions was no longer deemed to be compatible with running the site as a museum.

 

Southall (not listed by you) really suffered from the loss of the shed and never really recovered,

 

On the other hand, Didcot is very much still on the go (and has reopened).

 

 

I'd venture to say that with household budgets being squeezed, there may actually be more of a market for the short demonstration line runs. Some of the longer lines, like the WHR, WSR etc are really too long and expensive for (younger) children, and as disposable incomes fall, this may affect more lines.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

All depends on what the schemes where. Many of the places we called steam centres had out lived their usefulness or have revered to private sheds.

 

Carnforth, Dinting, Southport, Tyseley, etc. have all gone, mostly due to changes in visitor expectations. The public aren't interested in a short journey up and down the yard like they did in the 1970s, they want a journey.

 

Can't think of one project that has totally failed.

 

Barrow Hill offers a short journey up and down the yard on a few days a year and thrives, but then it didn't restrict itself to just being a museum.  It's a well-run base for other railway businesses as well and that's what pays most of the bills.

 

Many projects have opened to the public and closed, for many of the same reasons any other businesses fail: wrong product, price or place.  The important thing is that preserved railways learn from the history. Some "lost" heritage schemes in addition to the four you've mentioned:

  • Gloddfa Ganol NG Museum
  • Caerphilly Railway Society
  • Swansea Vale Railway
  • Cadeby Light Railway
  • Peak Rail (Buxton, although this may re-open in the near future)
  • North Woolwich Museum
  • Glasgow Transport Museum (on its old site)
  • National Railway Museum (Clapham)
  • Bleadon & Uphill Museum
  • Market Overton
  • Lochty
  • North Downs
  • S&D Trust at Radstock
  • South Yorkshire
  • Electric Railway Museum, Coventry

 

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It is wrong to say that Glasgow Transport Museum closed (regardless of the 'old site' qualification) ; It relocated, twice, and changed its name (to the Riverside Museum), but it is still very much in existence, and despite some diversions transport its still its primary focus. 

 

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Ditto NRM, the Clapham site went but it moved to a much larger site at York and spawned Locomotion. 

 

The Museum of Army Transport at Beverley had a decent railway collection and just vanished. Likewise Transperience (or whatever it was called) in Bradford. 

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And I wouldn't count Cadeby or Coventry as failures either.

 

Cadeby closed because Teddy's widow was going into a home and the house and grounds were being sold, Coventry closed owing to the Council wanting the land for other purposes.

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2 hours ago, caradoc said:

It is wrong to say that Glasgow Transport Museum closed (regardless of the 'old site' qualification) ; It relocated, twice, and changed its name (to the Riverside Museum), but it is still very much in existence, and despite some diversions transport its still its primary focus. 

 

I agree but because the location has changed therefore so has the product.  It has the same name but isn't the same place; the 15" gauge Fairbourne railway effectively closed and re-opened in a completely new form at the same location, run by different owners.

 

1 hour ago, Gilbert said:

Not the same organisation; the SDRT at Radstock closed in the 1970s and reloacted to Washford (from where they are now sadly going to have to re-locate, again).

 

3 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

Ditto NRM, the Clapham site went but it moved to a much larger site at York and spawned Locomotion. 

 

The Museum of Army Transport at Beverley had a decent railway collection and just vanished. Likewise Transperience (or whatever it was called) in Bradford. 

Again, the product/place changed - and massively improved - with the move to York.  Other than the exhibits, all it had in common was the name.

 

I'd forgotten Trans-perience; I think it was only open for about a year and lost the local authority a huge amount of money.  The museum at Beverley was excellent.

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4 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

And I wouldn't count Cadeby or Coventry as failures either.

 

Cadeby closed because Teddy's widow was going into a home and the house and grounds were being sold, Coventry closed owing to the Council wanting the land for other purposes.

Not sure I've described any of these as failures, only as schemes that closed often for the same reasons that businesses have failed. Cadeby was little different to a small family business that only trades as long as a family member remains interested in keeping it going. 

 

Coventry RC would have survived if they had been successful enough to be irreplaceable to the local authority: possibly wrong product and place.  This was sad because what the team was trying to achieve there was very laudable.  It was also one of the tidiest preservation sites I ever visited and could have been a lesson to many bigger preserved railways.

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I wouldn't say Coventry was necessarily a "wrong product" or even a "wrong place" - it was a "niche product" for sure, and wasn't likely to attract the same number of visitors as a steam railway, but as I understand it it was a financially sustainable attraction - it was never intended to be a crowd puller.

 

I would define a "failure" as a business which collapses because the money runs out or (in the case of heritage sites) because of a lack of volunteers to keep the project running. 

 

Loss of site for redevelopment, retirement of proprietor or relocation of business to larger premises (with a possible change of emphasis) are not what I would regard as failures - nor is it an indication that the previous model was in some way at fault. Just because new management have new ideas on how to do things doesn't mean the old way was a failure.

 

So I wouldn't regard the (not yet mentioned) relocation of Swindon Railway Museum into the Works building as STEAM as a failure. Nor would I say Peco had failed because they relocated from Seaton to Beer, or Hattons as having failed because of the relocation to Widnes.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Northmoor said:

Again, the product/place changed - and massively improved - with the move to York.  Other than the exhibits, all it had in common was the name.

And not even that.  The Clapham museum was a completely different institution called "The Museum of British Transport".  It had been set up and was run by the British Transport Commission and was then dumped on the BR Board when the BTC was abolished. 

 

BRB negotiated, as part of the 1968 Transport Act, to lose all responsibility for railway heritage and pass this responsibility to the Department of Education & Science (apart from the London Transport-related exhibits, which were transferred to the LT Executive, who moved them initially to Syon Park.) 

 

The DES passed the management of the "mainline" railway collections to the Science Museum, then a civil service body wholly part of the DES. (It was hived off in the 1980s as an arms-length charity.) Under political pressure from the Arts Minister Jennie Lee, the Science Museum proposed to create the first English national museum site outside London to house the collection. 

 

York was eventually chosen, to howls of rage at the time from the railway enthusiast press ("no-one goes there", "it's a long way away", "where is this northern town?"), partly because of the existence of one of the other ex-BRB museums there, but mainly because of the availability of a soon-to-be redundant steam shed which BR could hand over as part of the price of losing responsibility for the collection. 

 

Clapham closed in 1972 and the York site opened in 1975 under the brand name of "The National Railway Museum".  But that is just a brand name, like "Locomotion" (and the new "Railway Museum" brand) - legally there is no such organisation*.  It was, and remains, a department of the Science Museum.  The railway collection is an integral part of the Science Museum collection and managed as a single collection; and if you gift, loan or license anything to the NRM your legal agreement is with the Trustees of the Science Museum, or with their trading company.

 

We still used all the ex-BTC Clapham ledgers & files as working provenance documents at the NRM when I was there though, so the old place lives on in spirit!

 

Richard T

 

*The Friends of the National Railway Museum do have an independent legal existence though, as a separate charity with their own independent trustees.

 

 

Edited by RichardT
Added clarification about FNRM
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